[TwoMinutesToApocalypse]

Going into TUC I was convinced that all *men* were damned.  And lo and behold, this was confirmed when Mimara looked upon Esme with TJE.  But then she saw Serwa as a Ciphrang.  So scratch that...

When did Mimara see Serwa as a Ciphrang?  I totally missed that.... I need to re-read this book.

[Cüréthañ]

I don't think Celmomas was saved at all. Seems like no one gets saved while the No-god walks. The Gods can't perceive the World at all.

Has Resumption bared the rest of the Hundred from interferring in the real world?

The Gods are pretty much witless now. Imagine a virus erasing your memories and your meta-memories simultaneously. Theological Alzheimers.

The source and method of delivery of the Celmoman Prophecy is entirely suspect. (Shows Kellhus from the future quite clearly, delivered whilst the No-god is rendering the Gods witless.) The only way it comes from the Gods is via Ajokli if he is immanent during the Apocalypse - which is merely my own speculation.


Re: Serwa; being seen as Ciphrang is not confirmed as being quite the same as damnation.

What is the significance of those the Judging Eye sees as ciphrang? Is this a sign of deep sin (extra-toasty damnation) or transcendent spiritual power?

Yes.

Yes implies an 'and/or' answer.


I don't think the Consult are correct in their overall interpretation of the fate of souls in the outside (outside of their own). In The False Sun Aurang also tells Tirtirga Oblivion is impossible and that everyone is damned.

“You worship the spaces between the Gods ...”

“Yes.”

A rasp like the screams of faraway children tangled in the wind. Inchoroi laughter. “You are already damned. All of you are already damned.”

“So say you.”

A deep chested rumble. Popping mucous. “So says the Inverse Fire.”

...

All Men wailed. All Men burned all the time. They need only die to realize it.

Bakker, R. Scott. The Unholy Consult: Book Four of the Aspect-Emperor series (Aspect Emperor 4) (Kindle Locations 11936-11937). Little, Brown Book Group. Kindle Edition.

I believe the Consult and the Dunyain are both clearly shown to be wrong about many things in TGO and TUC. The Truth they hold is just a part of the whole - and there are many other Truths that they deny.

Given the origins of the Inchoroi as outlined in TUC, we should remember that the Inverse Fire is primarily there to ensure they perform the Task the progenitors have set.

[TLEILAXU]

Yeah the code thing is definitely something we could delve into more. Also, did Mimara actually use the Judging Eye to see the carapace? Like, maybe she just used her normal eyes. In fact, maybe it's the fact that the Judging Eye saw NOTHING which alerted her human eyes to the illusion at hand.
I'm pretty convinced Cet'ingira and The Consult are correct when it comes to Oblivion. It's there, but it's like the most rare out of the 3 fates in the Outside. This is possibly connected to premeditation. You can't actively seek oblivion, but it can come to you when you're a crazy Erratic who has lost most of his mental faculties.

[SmilerLoki]

I don't think Celmomas was saved at all. Seems like no one gets saved while the No-god walks. The Gods can't perceive the World at all.

It was stated that the Gods could see and hear their followers just fine during the Apocalypse (somewhere in the Aspect-Emperor and maybe multiple times). They can't see the No-God, but they can see the World, at least while it isn't shut off completely, for which the No-God by itself isn't sufficient.

Here's a quote:

The Gods are pretty much witless now. Imagine a virus erasing your memories and your meta-memories simultaneously. Theological Alzheimers.

The Gods losing their memories doesn't mean they can't see the world. They can't correctly interpret it and are prone to being subverted, but they are still a factor. There is also no reason to consider Ajokli being somehow exempt from this rule. The fact that he could manifest fully or almost fully in the Golden Room doesn't necessarily make him more of a power than he was before (I don't see why it should), nor does it change his nature, since his nature is atemporal (this also works for considering him more powerful because of entering the world). Actually, if entering the world somehow changed Ajokli, then he was always changed. Perhaps that's what sets him apart from the other Gods, which was referenced in the narrative and the Glossary.

[Cüréthañ]

@SmilerLoki, I included those quotes already.

I have no idea how you conclude that Gods with Alzeihmers can do anything. We're talking about an inability to grasp or form memories in creatures that depend entirely on the memories they harvest from souls.

No more babies = no more souls. Maybe they can peer uncomprehendingly through birds or whatnot, but I don't believe the Gods can intercede from the outside.

[H]

The thing is Bakker already told us, both extra-textually and in the books themselves that Oblivion is both real and possible, just very difficult to achieve.  What the Inverse Fire does is tell you things as they are at that moment.  So, it's no real surprise that everyone that has looked in it would see damnation, because redemption or Oblivion is probably (for most) a lifelong journey, with only the end being the final straw that casts your soul's lot for good.

I don't think Celmomas was saved at all. Seems like no one gets saved while the No-god walks. The Gods can't perceive the World at all.

It was stated that the Gods could see and hear their followers just fine during the Apocalypse (somewhere in the Aspect-Emperor and maybe multiple times). They can't see the No-God, but they can see the World, at least while it isn't shut off completely, for which the No-God by itself isn't sufficient.

While it is true that the world is no sealed pre-144k and that the No-God is a tool to both achieve 144k and to seal the world once it is achieved, we do have anecdotal evidence that Celmomas would not be saved, via Skafra's talk with Seswatha.  It could be that Skafra is lying, but I don't really find any reason to think he is, plus the further anecdotal evidence point to the fact of "souls that encounter the No-God pass no further" as being true.

[Madness]

The thing is Bakker already told us, both extra-textually and in the books themselves that Oblivion is both real and possible, just very difficult to achieve.  What the Inverse Fire does is tell you things as they are at that moment.  So, it's no real surprise that everyone that has looked in it would see damnation, because redemption or Oblivion is probably (for most) a lifelong journey, with only the end being the final straw that casts your soul's lot for good.

Probably wildly off-topic but we should also note that that specific Nonmen was fighting for the Consult.

[H]

The thing is Bakker already told us, both extra-textually and in the books themselves that Oblivion is both real and possible, just very difficult to achieve.  What the Inverse Fire does is tell you things as they are at that moment.  So, it's no real surprise that everyone that has looked in it would see damnation, because redemption or Oblivion is probably (for most) a lifelong journey, with only the end being the final straw that casts your soul's lot for good.

Probably wildly off-topic but we should also note that that specific Nonmen was fighting for the Consult.

Interesting, but that would sort of make sense, in that Oblivion is less a judgement that an achievement?

[Madness]

I still want to hear about Redemption and Angelic-Ciphrang...

[Sausuna]

@SmilerLoki, I included those quotes already.

I have no idea how you conclude that Gods with Alzeihmers can do anything. We're talking about an inability to grasp or form memories in creatures that depend entirely on the memories they harvest from souls.

No more babies = no more souls. Maybe they can peer uncomprehendingly through birds or whatnot, but I don't believe the Gods can intercede from the outside.

Well, not to be critical of the analogy, but people with Alzheimer's can influenced the world. Memory issues don't preclude the ability to interact with things. And given Kellhus in the vision, for all we know, he was aiding Gilgoal or Ajokli for some reason. Now, I'm not sure one way or another, I imagine there are other textual statements on the matter. Just saying for the sake of that answer, it isn't clear they could or couldn't manifest influence.

@H - Is that how it works (the Inverse Fire)? Kellhus' statements and the glossary imply to me that whatever they see is a sure thing. Granted, Kellhus may or may not understand the device, but he seems to grasp it quickly. And basically seemed to say 'it finds your soul in eternity then parses it so you can understand in the now'. Which, if that's the case, then the soul is already one way or another. Except for the No-God being the force that can change eternity.

Also, what does Skafra say that implies Celmomas wouldn't have been saved? All I saw from him was mentioning, 'our lord hath tasted thy king's passing', which seemed a reference to just knowing he died.

@TwoMinutesToApocalypse - I know it mentions her seeing a witch as a slender ciphrang above them in the battle.

[H]

Also, what does Skafra say that implies Celmomas wouldn't have been saved? All I saw from him was mentioning, 'our lord hath tasted thy king's passing', which seemed a reference to just knowing he died.

Right, so if we put together the (presumable) source of the name Cara-Sincurimoi "Angel of Endless Hunger," with Skfra's comment there about tasting his passing, and "souls that encounter him pass no further," the implication there would seem to me to be that the No-God is not allowing souls to pass through to the Outside, presumably this is how it "broke" the great Cycle of Souls.

It's plausible though that this is a mistake, rather it's a case of the "taste" is the "code-flash" and the cycle is broken by simply just not allowing souls back in.  This doesn't, however, square away the souls passing no further, so I rate it as less plausible.

[SmilerLoki]

@SmilerLoki, I included those quotes already.

I know, I just added the link.

I have no idea how you conclude that Gods with Alzeihmers can do anything.

The same way that people with it do. They forget some things, but not all things. Their memory is not erased completely and instantaneously. By analogy, the Gods are uncomprehending to some things now, but not to all things. What they still know, they can interact with.

We're talking about an inability to grasp or form memories in creatures that depend entirely on the memories they harvest from souls.

We have no evidence of the Gods needing souls to have memory. We still have no idea whether the Gods are dependent on humans/souls, and if so, then why. They don't seem to be D&D types of divinities, or at least not even close to fully. And if the Gods are dependent on humans, then if their connection to the world is severed as you postulate, then they should cease to exist. I do think it's what the No-God is for, but I don't think it's accomplished. I think it only really starts when the population is cut down to the 144k.

No more babies = no more souls. Maybe they can peer uncomprehendingly through birds or whatnot, but I don't believe the Gods can intercede from the outside.

There are still living people, who have souls, even working under your assumptions.

Basically, saying the Gods cannot intercede means the Outside cannot intercede, which would mean it's shut off. It isn't. It's impeded in some ways, mainly concerning the Gods, but not at all in others (at least we have no evidence of that), like sorcery.

It could be that Skafra is lying, but I don't really find any reason to think he is, plus the further anecdotal evidence point to the fact of "souls that encounter the No-God pass no further" as being true.

I also don't think he was lying here. What he easily could've been, though, is mistaken (completely or partially). As creatures of the Inchoroi, dragons seem to be heavily indoctrinated. And their "religion" had already been ill-understood by the Inchoroi when they created Wracu.

That being said, it's clear to me (since I find textual evidence of it) that the No-God indeed interacts with souls. But the extent, method, and end-result of this interaction are all completely unclear. And not in a "I can't imagine what happens here"-kind of way. It's much worse, actually, since I can concoct dozens of workable theories. The problem with all of them is the same: lack of information. Right now the effects of the No-God are defined so vaguely they can be interpreted in contradictory ways. And there is no opportunity to test theories. So when a need to explain something in one specific way arises, it basically means there is no possibility to consider that theory true. It becomes just one of many equally probable speculative outlooks.

[SmilerLoki]

There is one more important thing to consider about Skafra's words. During the Apocalypse operation of the System was terminated in an unexpected way, and there is no information on what would that entail. In particular, for Celmomas's soul.

We know the Indigo Plague happened soon afterward, but that's pretty much it.

[H]

It could be that Skafra is lying, but I don't really find any reason to think he is, plus the further anecdotal evidence point to the fact of "souls that encounter the No-God pass no further" as being true.

I also don't think he was lying here. What he easily could've been, though, is mistaken (completely or partially). As creatures of the Inchoroi, dragons seem to be heavily indoctrinated. And their "religion" had already been ill-understood by the Inchoroi when they created Wracu.

That being said, it's clear to me (since I find textual evidence of it) that the No-God indeed interacts with souls. But the extent, method, and end-result of this interaction are all completely unclear. And not in a "I can't imagine what happens here"-kind of way. It's much worse, actually, since I can concoct dozens of workable theories. The problem with all of them is the same: lack of information. Right now the effects of the No-God are defined so vaguely they can be interpreted in contradictory ways. And there is no opportunity to test theories. So when a need to explain something in one specific way arises, it basically means there is no possibility to consider that theory true. It becomes just one of many equally probable speculative outlooks.

True, I try my best to frame my posts in such a way to not attempt to play at facts.  Rather, I usually try to use evidence in the books, or from what Bakker said, to construct hypothetical plausible explanations of things.  In the end though, the true fact of the matter is that we don't know exactly how the No-God functions and we probably never will.

[Sausuna]

Also, what does Skafra say that implies Celmomas wouldn't have been saved? All I saw from him was mentioning, 'our lord hath tasted thy king's passing', which seemed a reference to just knowing he died.

Right, so if we put together the (presumable) source of the name Cara-Sincurimoi "Angel of Endless Hunger," with Skfra's comment there about tasting his passing, and "souls that encounter him pass no further," the implication there would seem to me to be that the No-God is not allowing souls to pass through to the Outside, presumably this is how it "broke" the great Cycle of Souls.

It's plausible though that this is a mistake, rather it's a case of the "taste" is the "code-flash" and the cycle is broken by simply just not allowing souls back in.  This doesn't, however, square away the souls passing no further, so I rate it as less plausible.

I think the latter is more likely, as 'tasted his passing' to me reads much more as having noticed his death, just the wording in general. If it meant to imply he ate his soul, I would think 'tasted his soul' or something would fit.

Also, as for the 'shall not pass' line, I always saw that as a reference (from the context) to the unique nature of the battleplain as the location of the No-God's death. They think it is an ongoing issue. This isn't hard evidence against, but Akka doesn't seem to question the prophecy dream for consistency in that aspect. He doesn't say, 'weird that Gilgoal showed up because he wouldn't be able to.'

The Angel of Endless Hunger certainly could be interpreted different ways as well. Note, I'm not adamantly against the idea. I feel like there must be some line about the Gods and the No-God that probably explains it. Just not a reading that feels intuitive to me. But that's just me.