Big question about the consult's intentions.

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Fëanor

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« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2017, 08:08:34 pm »
Why both? The boding does not depend on manouvering a million brains. It just happen because the No God exists. I think the Boding was on its way, while the horde was being reset.
I mean, we don't know how did it work precisely, so I note this fact. Maybe the Boding is harder, maybe the Horde-controlling, maybe other things, maybe everything combined. It can go every way, there is no further evidence to support a particular theory.
That's why I'm not assertive; we speak about conjectures, discard some and choose the likeliest, or those we like the most.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 08:12:18 pm by Fëanor »
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2017, 08:15:56 pm »
That's why I'm not assertive; we speak about conjectures, discard some and choose the likeliest, or whay we like the most.
I apologize if I came off as criticizing you, I really wasn't! I only voiced my thoughts on the matter in a somewhat utilitarian manner.

Returning to topic, I also think there is not much to go by even for conjectures. A lot of interpretations can be proposed, but none can be definitively proven. Or even considered likely, unfortunately.

Fëanor

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« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2017, 08:20:30 pm »
That's why I'm not assertive; we speak about conjectures, discard some and choose the likeliest, or whay we like the most.
I apologize if I came off as criticizing you, I really wasn't! I only voiced my thoughts on the matter in a somewhat utilitarian manner.

Returning to topic, I also think there is not much to go by even for conjectures. A lot of interpretations can be proposed, but none can be definitively proven. Or even considered likely, unfortunately.
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Sausuna

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« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2017, 08:31:14 pm »
  I don't see why their retreat against massive slaughter is so unthinkable.
Why, because of their behavior in the TAE books. Kamikaze like. And I don't think they were about to be slaughtered. Sheer numbers would have prevailed, that's what Bakker was telling us again and again.
I think their behavior proves otherwise, as noted. The Horde flees for nearly the entire Istyuli Plain. If they never had an inclination to flee, they would have all rushed for the Ordeal in the first place.

And they were winning until the Quya reassert in the Canal where they can effectively wipe them out. Long sweepings of metagnostic sundering from Kellhus, a horn dropped on them, the spearman threat gone, an Inchoroi defeated, and the Quya figuring things out - things tipped against them.

Fëanor

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« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2017, 08:41:36 pm »
  I don't see why their retreat against massive slaughter is so unthinkable.
Why, because of their behavior in the TAE books. Kamikaze like. And I don't think they were about to be slaughtered. Sheer numbers would have prevailed, that's what Bakker was telling us again and again.
I think their behavior proves otherwise, as noted. The Horde flees for nearly the entire Istyuli Plain. If they never had an inclination to flee, they would have all rushed for the Ordeal in the first place.

And they were winning until the Quya reassert in the Canal where they can effectively wipe them out. Long sweepings of metagnostic sundering from Kellhus, a horn dropped on them, the spearman threat gone, an Inchoroi defeated, and the Quya figuring things out - things tipped against them.
But we're talking about the Ark! Not a strategy to better maim the Ordeal in the long journey. And the swarm movement and silence is really indicating something is going on. The No God, no less. Even Bakker (quote someone brought here) says that the hologram was for the Horde to reload or something like that.
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Sausuna

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« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2017, 09:34:46 pm »
  I don't see why their retreat against massive slaughter is so unthinkable.
Why, because of their behavior in the TAE books. Kamikaze like. And I don't think they were about to be slaughtered. Sheer numbers would have prevailed, that's what Bakker was telling us again and again.
I think their behavior proves otherwise, as noted. The Horde flees for nearly the entire Istyuli Plain. If they never had an inclination to flee, they would have all rushed for the Ordeal in the first place.

And they were winning until the Quya reassert in the Canal where they can effectively wipe them out. Long sweepings of metagnostic sundering from Kellhus, a horn dropped on them, the spearman threat gone, an Inchoroi defeated, and the Quya figuring things out - things tipped against them.
But we're talking about the Ark! Not a strategy to better maim the Ordeal in the long journey. And the swarm movement and silence is really indicating something is going on. The No God, no less. Even Bakker (quote someone brought here) says that the hologram was for the Horde to reload or something like that.
We're also talking about Sranc. Not Ursranc, not Inversi, but soulless beasts barely above animals. Also, the quote was (imo) in relation to ensuring the No-God wasn't destroyed by the Ordeal more than anything else.

"Yes. It's a holographic projection, simply meant to keep the Great Ordeal - and the Schoolmen in particular - pinned in place while the Oar comes rattles back to life."

The Oar assumedly meaning the No-God. Seeing as it lacked chorae that one protected it until the Chorae Horde Shroud Whirlwind arose.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2017, 09:37:28 pm »
My initial "take" on what was going on when reading the end of TUC is the stillborn was due to her having the Eye - but then it appears she still "has" it after the births, so I was simply confused about the relationship between the Judging Eye and dead fetus in the womb - either that's true and something more/else is providing Mimira with the Eye or it's wholesale incorrect. I find the No-God "causing" the death of one of the twins to be quite the cool speculation, but to me it's unclear the timing of events given how briefly the book treats this. Everything happened so quickly once Kel was in the carapace.

Again, before I read this thread ( or any of the forum until I finished TUC ), I "read"/thought that the Mutilated was in the head scratching phase of trying to figure out how to get the thing to work. I "felt" they were uncertain of Kellhus; hence, tried multiple times to kill him before he reached them ( competing probability trances, if you will - sorta like Herbert's treatment of the Guild's inability to see the future when in the presence of another clairvoyant ). Once he strode on in with little resistance from what was considered quite the powerful defense/creatures, their probability trance ( panic? ) let them to try to "turn" him, the cats with the chorae providing "incentive" for him to cooperate; but, maybe not since they didn't hesitate to kill him when they were freed up by Kel ( via "chasing" off Horned brother ) - bit hazy on this - not sure the arrival of the 4 Horn confused the "plan" and one spy reacted or if they were trying to kill him once they arrived. I think they quickly realized Kel could make the thing work when they heard him say the gods couldn't see him - marking him as no-god material.

I only bring these points up as they were my initial take on things - which is important not to lose our first impressions, they could be the most correct. While I love chewing the fat with you fine chaps, "studying" the work can lead us astray if we're not careful. We're discussing outside the initial read which is full of richness ( suspense/momentum/context - we're in the throws of the story ). I think Bakker intended some obfuscation here to add to the mania of what was happening. All in essentially a single, brief scene we have Kellhus goes salt, Serwa comes out nearly/completely ruined from a fight that appears accomplished nothing, twin births ( one dead ) ... and the small matter of the arrival of Mog. The speed of these final events denote confusion, by design I think.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 09:46:00 pm by TaoHorror »
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Fëanor

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« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2017, 09:55:50 pm »
The Oar assumedly meaning the No-God. Seeing as it lacked chorae that one protected it until the Chorae Horde Shroud Whirlwind arose.
The Oar assumedly meaning the swarm-choirtalking-horde.
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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2017, 10:01:01 pm »
My initial "take" on what was going on when reading the end of TUC is the stillborn was due to her having the Eye - but then it appears she still "has" it after the births, so I was simply confused about the relationship between the Judging Eye and dead fetus in the womb - either that's true and something more/else is providing Mimira with the Eye or it's wholesale incorrect. I find the No-God "causing" the death of one of the twins to be quite the cool speculation, but to me it's unclear the timing of events given how briefly the book treats this. Everything happened so quickly once Kel was in the carapace.

Since Mimara had the Judging Eye years before she was even pregnant due to time being perceived differently by the gods, what is so strange about her still having it after giving birth? Makes sense to me...

Everything did go by very fast at the end. There seems to be evidence supporting both possibilities, though (I doubt we will ever know what exactly caused the stillbirth).
The Judging Eye causing the second baby to be stillborn makes sense from what little we know of it (how I wish we had just some more information about it). On the other hand, it's possible that the Boding isn't an instantaneous phenomenon and that the No-God's awakening caused the stillbirth (and then it spread shortly afterward, starting the Years of the Crib 2.0).
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2017, 10:05:53 pm »
The Oar assumedly meaning the No-God. Seeing as it lacked chorae that one protected it until the Chorae Horde Shroud Whirlwind arose.
The Oar assumedly meaning the swarm-choirtalking-horde.
Nah the Oar is surely the No-God, being an extension of the Ark's will.

Sausuna

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« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2017, 10:25:15 pm »
The Oar assumedly meaning the No-God. Seeing as it lacked chorae that one protected it until the Chorae Horde Shroud Whirlwind arose.
The Oar assumedly meaning the swarm-choirtalking-horde.
Why? The No-God was called the prosthesis of the Ark. Oar for the Ark. Seems pretty clear.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2017, 11:17:43 pm »
Why? The No-God was called the prosthesis of the Ark. Oar for the Ark. Seems pretty clear.
I agree. Oars are referred to as (driving) parts of the Ark, the No-God is the prosthesis of the Ark at a time when its original Oars are no longer operational. Considering the terms given in the narrative, it's hard to ascribe the word another meaning.

The Horde of the No-God is never referred to as the Oar, and it was talked about in the narrative for ages.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2017, 11:58:55 pm »
My initial "take" on what was going on when reading the end of TUC is the stillborn was due to her having the Eye - but then it appears she still "has" it after the births, so I was simply confused about the relationship between the Judging Eye and dead fetus in the womb - either that's true and something more/else is providing Mimira with the Eye or it's wholesale incorrect. I find the No-God "causing" the death of one of the twins to be quite the cool speculation, but to me it's unclear the timing of events given how briefly the book treats this. Everything happened so quickly once Kel was in the carapace.

Since Mimara had the Judging Eye years before she was even pregnant due to time being perceived differently by the gods, what is so strange about her still having it after giving birth? Makes sense to me...



She did? Oops, sorry! I thought she "got it" during the Slog ( after the consummation ). If that's the case, clearly you're correct, she sported the Eye before, then why not after the pregnancy.
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2017, 12:34:53 am »
My initial "take" on what was going on when reading the end of TUC is the stillborn was due to her having the Eye - but then it appears she still "has" it after the births, so I was simply confused about the relationship between the Judging Eye and dead fetus in the womb - either that's true and something more/else is providing Mimira with the Eye or it's wholesale incorrect. I find the No-God "causing" the death of one of the twins to be quite the cool speculation, but to me it's unclear the timing of events given how briefly the book treats this. Everything happened so quickly once Kel was in the carapace.

Since Mimara had the Judging Eye years before she was even pregnant due to time being perceived differently by the gods, what is so strange about her still having it after giving birth? Makes sense to me...



She did? Oops, sorry! I thought she "got it" during the Slog ( after the consummation ). If that's the case, clearly you're correct, she sported the Eye before, then why not after the pregnancy.
Damn I thought/misremembered that too, but apparently she always had it.

Fëanor

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« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2017, 12:44:35 am »
The Oar assumedly meaning the No-God. Seeing as it lacked chorae that one protected it until the Chorae Horde Shroud Whirlwind arose.
The Oar assumedly meaning the swarm-choirtalking-horde.
Why? The No-God was called the prosthesis of the Ark. Oar for the Ark. Seems pretty clear.
Didn't get it that way. It sounds logical. But then again, it's Bakker the Deciever we're dealing with...
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