[Cuttlefish]

Plenty of quotes here from Kyudea, that suggest Moe needed Kellhus the sorcerer in order to enact the TT.

“So you assumed taking up the Water would be no different, that becoming one of the Indara-Kishauri would make you godlike in comparison. And since the Cishaurim themselves scarcely understand the metaphysics of their practice, there was nothing you could learn that would contradict this assumption. You couldn’t know that the Psûkhe was a metaphysic of the heart, not the intellect. Of passion … “So you let them blind you, only to find your powers proportionate to your vestigial passions. What you thought to be the Shortest Path was in fact a dead end.”

If Moe hadn't chose the Psukhe, not knowing that the weaknesses the Dunyain do have, he would have never needed Kellhus.

“Of course, you had heard of the Consult,” Kellhus continued, ignoring his question. “And like most in the Three Seas, you thought them long dead—the stuff of Mandate delusions. But the stories you extracted from your captives … there was too much consistency, too much detail, for them to be fabrications.“The deeper you probed, the more troubling the story became. You had read The Sagas, and you had doubted them, thinking them too fanciful. Destroying the world? No malice could be so great. No soul could be so deranged. After all, what could be gained? Who follows paths over precipices? “But the skin-spies explained it all. Speaking in shrieks and howls, they taught you the why and wherefore of the Apocalypse. You learned that the boundaries between the World and the Outside were not fixed, that if the World could be cleansed of enough souls, it could be sealed shut. Against the Gods. Against the heavens and the hells of the Afterlife. Against redemption. And, most importantly, against the possibility of damnation."

This quote is two-fold in answering some question. Celmommian Prophecy. I believe it was widely known and at least part of the reason Mandati were taking to be fools. It also shows that Moe knew all about it and needed the strongest sorcerer alive to contest them.

“When did you realize you didn’t possess the strength,” Kellhus asked, “that more was needed to avert the No-God’s second coming?” “From the very first I recognized that it was probable,” Moënghus said. “But I spent years assessing the possibilities, gathering knowledge. When the first of the Thought came to me, I was quite unprepared.”

Another clue he needed a super human sorcerer, Kellhus.

“Only a true son of Ishuäl could succeed,” his father continued. “For all the Thousandfold Thought’s innumerable deductions, for all its elegance, there remained countless variables that could not be foreseen. Each of its folds possesses a haze of catastrophic possibilities, most of them remote, others nearly certain. I would have abandoned it long ago, were not the consequences of inaction so absolute. “Only one of the Conditioned could follow its path. Only you, my son.”

“No. You were the only path.”

Defense rests its case.

I don't think any of the quotes confirm the need for Kellhus's sorcery; The Thousandfold Thought, as I understand it and as I believe, is the Shortest Path applied on a much grander scale; for due to their isolation, Dunyain mastery over the circumstances is limited in scope, and the sheer size of the world required the invention of a new method, the Thousandfold Thought that was almost too much for even Kellhus. Naturally, only a Dunyain could master it; I don't believe magic is neccessarily a part of it, nor was Moenghus's understanding of magic strong enough to see the pathways Kellhus, in his sorcerous might, would pursue.

As for Moenghus needing Kellhus, it is true he would not have needed him had he not chosen Psükhe. But as I understood it, this because the Psükhe crippled him - sight is an important tool to the Dunyain, and his clear association with the Cishaurium by blinding himself would've kept him away from pursuing more promising paths, be it among the Mandati or the political echelons of either civilizations.

Crap, forgot to post this yesterday - it address much of what you posted:

The primary pitfall of the puske for Moenghus was that he had to blind himself. Because of this, he lost most of the advantage that the dunyain training gave him. That issue was compounded by his inability to actually properly use it. This mistake was what lead to him needing another Dunyain in the first place.

Because of that, he needed some other full blooded Dunyain to unite the three seas.
Once the holy war was over and a Dunyain crowed as Emperor, Moenghus could have then gone on to part 2 of this plan to save the world.

What was needed was Kellhus the place - meaning a Dunyain to forcibly unite and hold together the Three Seas long enough to mount the Great Ordeal and attack/defeat Golgotterath.

From Moenghus' point of view, Kellhus the man was just a cog in the wheel. That position could have been occupied by any other Dunyain, though I do think that place needed to be a Few Dunyain that could use sorcery properly.

From Moenghus' POV, there was nothing inherently special about Kellhus, was there?

“No. You were the only path.”

Thanks for pulling all those quotes. Very helpful . Shit, I need to go back and read that - such a good scene, the end of TTT.

This quote though, is it clear why?

I specifically didn't mention TTT up till here for a reason, because there's definitely a difference between Moenghus' version and Kellhus', and I think it adds a lot of confusion.

For Moenghus, he couldn't see the whole picture, just that there was a shaping of events that needed to take place.The reason Moenghus picked Kellhus is unclear - it could be that no matter how he computed the TT the Dunyain he needed was Kellhus. I still say that what Moenghus was someone to fill the role of Kellhus and it could have been anyone that fit thse parameters - with the possability that Kellhus was the only one available at the time that Moenghus knew of that could have done it.

Moenghus might've seen Kellhus as the only one who could pursue the Thousandfold Thought because he is Anasurimbor, the line confirmed by the Survivor as being the strongest, and because Kellhus himself seemed to be stronger than the rest - in the flashbacks to his childhood, he seems quicker than rest of his "class". In addition to that, Moenghus might just be biased in favour of his son - Moenghus himself admits that the Dunyain, despite their belief to the contrary, are not immune to the Legion Within. The Survivor confirms this even more clearly, when he realizes before his suicide just why he saved the crab handed boy - because it was his son, because he smelled Anasurimbor.

[MSJ]

Well, lets look at this way fellows. Would've sorcerless Kellhus and the Great Ordeal even made it to Golgottereath?

My answer, not a fucking chance. The Thousandfold Thought was a plan to destroy the Consult and save the world. We can argue semantics all day. Kellhus needed to be the baddest sorcerer to ever walk Earwa, to even have a chance.

ETA: I understand the reason Moe sent for Kellhus was that he blinded himself. But, he also knew Kellhus needed sorcery, hence assuring Akka as tutor, or Kellhus wouldn't have even united the Three Seas, let alone contest the Consult.

How do you think Moe planned to unite the 3seas? Waxing poetically? No, he thought by being blinded and learning the Psukhe he would surpass men in sorcery the same way. Just picked the wrong sorcery.

[MSJ]

Moenghus himself admits that the Dunyain, despite their belief to the contrary, are not immune to the Legion Within. The Survivor confirms this even more clearly, when he realizes before his suicide just why he saved the crab handed boy - because it was his son, because he smelled Anasurimbor.

And yet, people question Kellhus's love for Esme, and even Serwe for that matter.....

[MSJ]

Thanks for pulling all those quotes. Very helpful . Shit, I need to go back and read that - such a good scene, the end of TTT.

This quote though, is it clear why?

I specifically didn't mention TTT up till here for a reason, because there's definitely a difference between Moenghus' version and Kellhus', and I think it adds a lot of confusion.

For Moenghus, he couldn't see the whole picture, just that there was a shaping of events that needed to take place.The reason Moenghus picked Kellhus is unclear - it could be that no matter how he computed the TT the Dunyain he needed was Kellhus. I still say that what Moenghus was someone to fill the role of Kellhus and it could have been anyone that fit thse parameters - with the possability that Kellhus was the only one available at the time that Moenghus knew of that could have done it.

Please do reread it, I think you'll see that what Moe needed was a Dunyain capable of sorcery. Also, some of Bakker's best writing undoubtedly.

Moe, knew the TT, it came to him out of nowhere. He just knew that being blinded and not being a powerful sorcerer effectively made him null. So, his obvious choice is his son. Who, as has been explained before is the strongest of the Dunyain. I don't think Its true Moe couldn't see the whole of the thought, again, go back and reread. He learned an abundance about the Consult through the Skin-Spies. Things we never even hear because Cnaüir walks in and Kellhus kills him. Moe knew more about the Consult plan than anyone in the 3seas. Only, he wasn't powerful enough as a sorcerer to carry out the plan. Thata why that quote, to me, puts the nail in the coffin as to why a sorceress Kellhus was needed.

[TLEILAXU]

Maybe a bit off topic here, but does anybody feel that Moënghus actually loved his son?

"Only one of the Conditioned could follow its path. Only you, my son."

Could it be? A tincture of sorrow in his father's voice? Kellhus turned from the hanging skin-spies, once again enclosed his father within the circle of his scrutiny.

Stepping from between his faceless captives, Moënghus approached, his expression a mask of blind stone. He reached out as though to clasp Kellhus's wrist or hand, but halted the instant Kellhus shrank back.

[MSJ]

Who knows, he admits that they're not without the Legion within, like they think they are. Never gave it much thought. But, if the Survivor and him saving his son is meant to show us anything, then I'd say yes. In their own Dunyainish way of loving.

[Wilshire]

That all really implies that Moenghus though Kellhus was special though, and I don't agree.  Could he be? Sure. All the cited evidence though points to the need for a Dunyain that wasn't blind and of the Few. Ishual by all accounts should have been full of them.

Randomly, on that note, I wonder why the rest of the dream-contaminated Dunyain didn't go with Kellhus. Conspiracy level speculation here - but if the goal was to have Moenghus killed, wouldn't it be better that they all went out into the world? They could pinky-swear-suicide-pact beforehand that once Moe was killed they all drink some poison. Makes no sense to kill off a dozen perfectly capable Dunyain. A Cabal of Dunyain shock troopers could have just marched straight to Shimeh and fucked up Moenghus and that whole city, schoolmen or not.

Maybe a bit off topic here, but does anybody feel that Moënghus actually loved his son?

"Only one of the Conditioned could follow its path. Only you, my son."

Could it be? A tincture of sorrow in his father's voice? Kellhus turned from the hanging skin-spies, once again enclosed his father within the circle of his scrutiny.

Stepping from between his faceless captives, Moënghus approached, his expression a mask of blind stone. He reached out as though to clasp Kellhus's wrist or hand, but halted the instant Kellhus shrank back.

I think TTT Moenghus was approaching TUC Kellhus uncertainty. Maybe Kellhus was Moenghus' Esmenet.

[MSJ]

That all really implies that Moenghus though Kellhus was special though, and I don't agree.  Could he be? Sure. All the cited evidence though points to the need for a Dunyain that wasn't blind and of the Few. Ishual by all accounts should have been full of them.

You don't think that the Anasurrimbor line wasn't special? Wow. I think there are many, many instances where this is verified by the Dunyain themselves, most notably the survivor and the Boy. I'm not going and looking for quotes because this is a common knowledge type of thing, I think your overlooking.

ETA: Dunyain Anansurimbor's
1. Kellhus, baddest sorcerer who ever walked Earwa and was a hairs width from accomplishing his goal.
2. Survivor. The Only Dunyain to survive the Consult at Ishual, mind you with his son on his back. Seems pretty special to me.
3. The Boy. Yet to be seen, but might become more powerful than the whole lot.
4. Moe. If not for one mistake, the story would be been about Moe, not Kellhus.

[MSJ]

Wilshire (also others please jump in, more opinions the better.)

If Moe didn't need a Dunyain that would be a mighty sorcerer, what would he need then to even put the TT into action?

TT into action, I mean to unite the 3seas. How else, but by sheer sorcerous power would you unite the Fanim and the rest of the 3seas? Diplomacy? Moe himself says Maithenet wouldn't be enough.

You do realize that Shimeh would've lost if not for Kellhus and his Cant of Translocation, right? Or, at the very least a battle that decimated both sides, but never united them.

And, lastly were forgetting that this was all basically pre-ordained. Moe says the thought came to him out of nowhere....can anyone say Ajokli? Kellhus, was special for a variety of reasons, the least him being an Anansurimbor. I can't comprehend how someone could say that any Dunyain would've been as capable. Especially when the Boy notes that the Survivor well surpassed any of the elders, in terms of reaching the Absolute. 

So, I'm asking what other possible way/person would there be to so what Kellhus was capable of doing? Heck, even as powerful as he was, some nations still never bowed to him. Give me a scenario where sans Kellhus the 3seas are even united....heck if the truly ever were.

[JerakoKayne]

Moe says the thought came to him out of nowhere....can anyone say Ajokli?

My favorite assertion in this thread so far, and one I enjoy very much!

Though my opinion is that this latest turn is running parallel to the thread's intent. Regardless of whether or not Moe sent for Kell, and why, it is my [edit:]interpretation that whoever sent the prophecy wanted Kellhus to fail (though I'm personally in team Moe needed sorcery, and it's obv non-defective Dunyain are Few. Why Kellhus? Is because without pride Anasurimbor Dunyain is objectively best Dunyain. Anasurimbor is the strongest of the twelve seeds).

Whoever sent the prophecy wanted Kellhus to fail. It's Drusas Achamian's indecision that keeps him alive. In the prophecy itself (per TGO dream, anyway) Kellhus himself is presented as "the end of the world".

Achamian's hesitation in turning him in is because he knew the Mandate would completely destroy him with their Plies (early TWP) and even the Conditioned wouldn't survive a Cant of Compulsion.

Whoever sent the Prophecy really, really wanted Kellhus to fail.

[Dora Vee]

Well, they got what they wanted. I wonder who sent that dream?

[JerakoKayne]

Whoever sent the prophecy wanted Kellhus to fail. It's Drusas Achamian's indecision that keeps him alive.

Achamian's hesitation in turning him in is because he knew the Mandate would completely destroy him with their Plies (early TWP) and even the Conditioned wouldn't survive a Cant of Compulsion.

Whoever sent the Prophecy really, really wanted Kellhus to fail.

On this note, Aurang states that all the prophecies, true and false, must be observed. And Achamian was trained by a Consult skin-spy (the-thing-that-is-called-Simas).

[Cuttlefish]

Moenghus himself admits that the Dunyain, despite their belief to the contrary, are not immune to the Legion Within. The Survivor confirms this even more clearly, when he realizes before his suicide just why he saved the crab handed boy - because it was his son, because he smelled Anasurimbor.

And yet, people question Kellhus's love for Esme, and even Serwe for that matter.....

Oh, that's a debate I took part in. Several times in both series, it is very clearly implied that Kellhus is capable of feelings - sparing Cnaiür out of pity, crying when nailed to Serwe to name the two most prominent examples in the first series. Theopliano (probably butchered her name) herself puts it best; when likening emotions to tracks made in the snow, she mentions that she and father make the tracks hardest to see, but they still make those.

[Wilshire]

That all really implies that Moenghus thought Kellhus was special though, and I don't agree.  Could he be? Sure. All the cited evidence though points to the need for a Dunyain that wasn't blind and of the Few. Ishual by all accounts should have been full of them.

You don't think that the Anasurrimbor line wasn't special?

I said Kellhus wasn't special. What I meant was that he wasn't special insofar as its likely any other dunyain could have done what he did.

By all accounts, he was a bumbling fool who should have died in the woods. He got lucky, and got lucky, and got lucky, and eventually after being saved a dozen times and being spoonfed the most power one could imagine, he finally became what he was - then he died.

Kellhus the person was not special.

Wilshire (also others please jump in, more opinions the better.)

If Moe didn't need a Dunyain that would be a mighty sorcerer, what would he need then to even put the TT into action?

Already covered this above. To reiterate in short - he needed somone to lead an army to Shimeh. No sorcery required. Note, none was even used until the end. So, we should at least agree that he didn't need to be a sorcerer to unite the holy war and bring it to Shimeh.

TT into action, I mean to unite the 3seas. How else, but by sheer sorcerous power would you unite the Fanim and the rest of the 3seas? Diplomacy? Moe himself says Maithenet wouldn't be enough.

Again, covered above. In short: TTT doesn't care who wins the holy war. The important thing is that a Dunyain is at the helm of the New Empire.

You do realize that Shimeh would've lost if not for Kellhus and his Cant of Translocation, right? Or, at the very least a battle that decimated both sides, but never united them.

I do realize that the Fanim would have won, yes. Again, the TT proceeds without a hiccup - unite humanity under one religion. It would have "united" them the same way - nothing like nearly 30 years of constant war to unite a peoples.

Besides, the religion is irrelevant because the Dunyain at the helm changes it to suit his needs.

And, lastly were forgetting that this was all basically pre-ordained. Moe says the thought came to him out of nowhere....can anyone say Ajokli?

It came to Inrilatas in his cell, it came to Maithanet, it came to Kelmomas.
Could have been Ajokli, could have been anything.

Kellhus, was special for a variety of reasons, the least him being an Anansurimbor.

Like what?
If he was special, it wasn't for anything he did. He accomplished nothing that wasn't given to him by Moenghus or Ajokli, and he ultimately failed. Any dunyain could have been handed the pre-laid plans made by Moenghus and been taken up by Ajolki and have done just as well.

I can't comprehend how someone could say that any Dunyain would've been as capable.

Its about looking at it more objectively. FWIW, I can see why you might feel that Kellhus was special.

Especially when the Boy notes that the Survivor well surpassed any of the elders, in terms of reaching the Absolute. 

The Boy was how old during the war against the Consult? He didn't remember anything. And all the he remembers was what Koringhus taught him - all lies.

Regardless, Survivor being a badass doesn't say much of anything about Kellhus either way, at least in this regard. He didn't use magic, which is really what most of this is about.

So, I'm asking what other possible way/person would there be to so what Kellhus was capable of doing? Heck, even as powerful as he was, some nations still never bowed to him.

Yup, as I already have said, Kellhus didn't do anything. He was handed the Holy War, the Three Seas, the Outside, the Thousandfold thought, and the Gnosis.
Any Dunyain that was spoon fed all those advantages could have done exactly what Kellhus did.

Give me a scenario where sans Kellhus the 3seas are even united....heck if the truly ever were.

Scenario 1:
Literally any dunyain could have done it. Here, super human guy, here's the plans and a play-by-play book for how to take over the world, oh and I already set up all the pieces. Basically Dominos, and Kellhus couldn't do it. Any Dunyain could have done that as well.

Scenario 2:
Moenghus especially was a true mastermind, except for the whole blinding himself thing. He had TTT planned out beginning to end, and he definitely didn't plan to lose or to be killed.
On that note, TTT ultimately failed, so its not such a great thing to hang one's hat on at this point.  Everyone who has 'grasped it' is dead, and likely everyone that did 'grasp it' entirely thought they were special and they would be the one to save the world. None of them did. The Thought was a broken tool.

Scenario 3:
Koringhus. If Kellhus wasn't an idiot and went around revealing himself to the Consult and getting Ishual destroyed (aside, ultimately this leading to his own death and failure as it caused the Dunyain to rule the Consult...), there was a whole line of Anasurimbor better, faster, stronger than him.

Scenario 4:
Conphas. Kellhus didn't do much of anything except fail given every advantage imaginable. You don't need a super human to do that. Conphas had already united the three seas with treaties with Fanayal and had already divided the spoils of the holy war. Would Conphas have defeated the Consult? No, but neither did Kellhus, or Moenghus, so what's the major difference?

Scenario 5:
Cnaiur. He was gearing up to be a badass King of Tribes that might have been able to sweep across the Three Seas post-holy-war and "united" them much the same way Kellhus "united" them - with fear and violence.


Granted, the last two are a bit of a stretch, but when we know the plan ended in abject failure and death, the bar is set pretty low.

I appreciate the discussion, MSJ . Even if I know no one reads big posts, at least its fun for me (us, hopefully).

[Cuttlefish]

@Wilshire I agree with your assertion that the main purpose of summoning a Dunyain was to lead the army, not master magic, but I'm fairly convinced that you're wrong about Kellhus not being special. Three points that I've mentioned here before:

1 - Dunyain are not equals. The Survivor reminisces about the Dunyain, who, confronted with the siege of the Consult, simply stopped functioning. Some Dunyain are clearly weaker than the others.

2 - Anasurimbor line is more powerful. The Survivor remarks on this. He could be biased, but I don't think he is.

3 - Kellhus was quicker than rest of the Dunyain children. There is one notable flashback, where the Pragma takes them out to the woods and asks them what he sees - Kellhus is the only one to answer that he sees conflict, of tree roots fighting for space. Maybe it's not definitive, but I saw the flashbacks as clearly implying that Kellhus was somehow ahead of his peers.

And it's rather unfair to say that Kellhus was a bumbling fool. He has a sensory overload when he first gets out of Ishual - as far as we know, this could be the case for pretty much every Dunyain, as they've learned to pick off every detail and have been living in a very isolated space; the world is too big even for them. He does require coincidences to survive, but same could be said for any Dunyain - despite all their might, the Dunyain are not infallible and the world is overwhelmingly big and complex.

Edit: Also, it is fair to say that the Holy War would've failed without Kellhus. Especially in the second battle (whose name I forget), which was almost a defeat until Kellhus recognized that Cnaiür's plan wasn't working and intervened. Not to forget, his miracle of water that saved the Holy War later down the road.