[!STAR WARS SPOILERS!] The Last Jedi

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Bolivar

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« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2018, 10:59:05 pm »
There are a lot of things I really liked about the movie but a lot of things about it I really hated, which kinda compounded with my general dislike for what Disney has done to the film franchise.

I liked TFA when it first came out but it really lost favor for me on rewatches, so I liked how TFA kinda threw a lot of it out. As Knee that Bends wrote, Snoke mocking Ren's helmet felt like a big middle finger to the slavish imitation of TFA and its uninspiring new contributions. Luke throwing the lightsaber over his shoulder and Rey's parents being nobody were both such bold subversions of peoples expectations that they had been building up for years. I liked the length of the movie, the action, and the drama, it just felt like the really big operatic science fantasy film that I've been waiting for from this new trilogy.

That said, the villains are trash. The forced campy humor is irredeemably bad. Holdo standing around Resistance soldiers with her pink hair and flowing dress is the most out of place character in the entirety of the series, and that's saying a lot for a space drama with aliens.  I don't think clueless creepy Uncle Luke really works or does justice to what this character means to American culture. I feel so bad for Mark Hamill because he's probably been looking forward to reprising this role for the majority of his life and in interviews he said that this is basically an alternate universe version of Luke that does not capture his understanding of the character at all. It's just incredibly sad to me.

Ultimately, my larger problems are with the way this series was positioned at large. Instead of showing the rebuilding of the Republic, they just did a rehash that would pander to the nostalgia of fans of the original trilogy. It's just more Empire vs. Rebels, more X-Wings and Tie Fighters, another Darth Vader. Starting with Empire, these were essentially the biggest independent films but now their creative purpose has been discarded to instead play it safe and reestablish the good will of the brand, so the corporation that now owns it can continue making money off of it.

Like Athorn "FB" Gallizur, I was the perfect age for the prequels when they first came out but as I grew older I saw the flaws and more or less wrote them off like everybody else. This new sequel trilogy really made me appreciate what George was trying to do with them, to tell a new story, with new characters, planets, and starships, with different themes and plot lines in a largely different setting. I also think they have much better action, too!


Knee that Bends

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« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2018, 08:20:50 pm »
Very well put, Bolivar. I was always a little let down how little they strayed from the OT in TFA. Not just how there was a lot of allusions (I.e. sandy planet, death star, etc.) but more that they didn't seem to surprise me at all. The prequel trilogy was George rehashing a lot of the same motifs, but with a whole new story, and with new assets. I thought TLJ was a little better in that aspect than TFA. Rian Johnson genuinely wanted to surprise us. There was definitely more plot twists, and more new ships, characters, creatures, weapons, etc. than TFA, which is surprising, seeing how TFA was the first in a new series. I loved all the stuff they added. Especially the redguards' weird sabers, how they didn't feel gimmicky *cough* *cough* Rebels TV show *cough*  and the new big-ass-bunker-buster-cannon-of-death-and-destruction that almost rekt our favorite stormtrooper. It all seemed new and exciting, but it still felt Star Wars. You could say the same about the plot. Also, I thought they should've finished up with the old characters' storylines before throwing in new ones we didn't care about yet. For example, I would've been more attached to Mrs. Purple rebel if she was introduced in this movie as a background character, then brought to life in the next movie after Leia's death, taking her place as captain. This idea does NOT apply to Luke. I wanted more from Luke for sure. If they had done a scene like the Reylo back-to-back scene but with Rey and Luke? Bad FUCKING ass. We haven't seen two jedi fight side-by-side other than the prequels. It's so cool watching master and apprentice fight against a common foe. It really makes their relationship more meaningful. Especially in the case of Ani/Obi where you know they're going to have to fight each other eventually. That made Mustafar much more meaningful imo.
"And I renounce..." He trailed, warred with errant pas­sions. "I renounce my wife."
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Bolivar

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« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2018, 03:36:10 am »
Yeah, I really wish we got one last lightsaber fight from Luke.

This is the same way I felt about TAG, enjoyed it when I left the theater but the more I think about it...

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Francis Buck

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« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2018, 04:52:26 am »
I actually thought I mentioned that in my post but apparently I forgot -- the lack of a proper Luke lightsaber battle is fucking criminal. Instead we get this weird cocktease with a damn slow-mo Matrix-dodge. I have nothing against slow-mo in movies whatsoever, but it's not something I ever wanted in Star Wars. Call me a purist, but I like that the series has (had) little idiosyncracies that became "how Star Wars movies are". Even the flashback ruffled my feathers, though I think I could have dealt with that if served more than feeling like a shoe-horned twist.

And here's the thing -- I actually would have been FINE with the lack of a Luke vs Someone lightsaber battle if they had actually approached Luke's character in a different/better way. For example I'm one of the people who (retrospectively) dislikes that Yoda ever used a lightsaber, as it seemed beneath his character. But given the plot we did actually get, a good Luke vs Kylo fight (even if it ended with Luke doing the Obi-Wan-Kenobi "strike me down" trick) would've been...well, something.

@Wilshire
Your point about only light side users being capable of Force ghosting is interesting and along with the Sith-culture stuff is really the kind of shit I was hoping to see more of -- specifically, the lack any actual "Sith training" is an insane missed oppturtunity IMO, and could've been a cool way to flesh out the Sith and/or Dark side in general, while also serving as a sort of inverted version of Luke and Yoda in TESB.

I was also one of the people who (before the rumor was dispelled) would've actually not minded a Snoke-as-Plagueis twist. Despite the prequels being generally very poor movies, I do feel like there should be a little more continuity between trilogies. Beyond that, the notion of a reincarnating/immortal Force user whose been manipulating the galactic society for decades Dunyain-style has some potential in my mind (assuming it had, like, good writing and not another cackling, cartoonishly evil Big Bad), and it could've even helped handwave some of the series extant weird plot holes and/or lazy worldbuilding such as the similarity of the First Order to the Empire, or even why Kylo would decide to be trained by such an individual, given his Vader fanboyism.

Speaking of villains, the portrayal of Hux was borderline character assassination. I mean he wasn't anything amazing in TFA per se, but again, like Finn (or Rey, or Snoke) the character had plenty of potential for growth. Instead he became a receptacle for corny humor (because there wasn't enough of that already).

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« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2018, 10:49:57 pm »
Random interjection on reading FB's latest but, despite even the random love for Poe, the misuse so far of Oscar Isaac and, but especially, Domhnall Gleeson, is fucking criminal.

Edit: Even John Boyega, ffs.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 10:51:35 pm by Madness »
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Bolivar

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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2018, 07:43:38 pm »
Agree on all three of those. Hux is such a horrible waste of a character, it would have been like relegating Grand Moff Tarkin to comedy relief. Unforgivable.

I think Boyega is the best out of the new main cast but they had him going off to a casino town to free the animals for most of his time in the film.

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« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2018, 12:35:43 pm »
Finally saw it.  Has it happened though?  Am I just too old for Star Wars now?
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Wilshire

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« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2018, 01:06:02 pm »
Finally saw it.  Has it happened though?  Am I just too old for Star Wars now?
Nostalgia wore off and you've realized its a children's story - moreso now that Disney owns it. So, yeah, I'd say you probably are :/
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« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2018, 06:29:46 pm »
Nostalgia wore off and you've realized its a children's story - moreso now that Disney owns it. So, yeah, I'd say you probably are :/

I am not sure if nostalgia is worn off, but rather I no long have an appetite for fantastical moral clarity.  It's just not interesting.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2018, 07:01:40 pm »
Nostalgia wore off and you've realized its a children's story - moreso now that Disney owns it. So, yeah, I'd say you probably are :/

I am not sure if nostalgia is worn off, but rather I no long have an appetite for fantastical moral clarity.  It's just not interesting.
Isn't that ironically what makes TLJ a bit more interesting than its predecessors though? I personally felt the movie was a bit more grey, e.g. when Kylo says he didn't hate his dad.

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« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2018, 07:06:18 pm »
Isn't that ironically what makes TLJ a bit more interesting than its predecessors though? I personally felt the movie was a bit more grey, e.g. when Kylo says he didn't hate his dad.

I guess, but Kylo Ren still only seems to give the appearance of depth, rather than actually having it.  Or so it seems to me.  But I would rank any of the newer movies over the old-old ones.  Not even a bit.

What make TFA more appealing than TLJ was honestly pacing though.  There was no real reason for that to be 2.5 hours.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2018, 08:15:10 pm »
but rather I no long have an appetite for fantastical moral clarity.  It's just not interesting.
Yup. Seems to cheapen the experience.

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« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2018, 08:58:37 pm »
but rather I no long have an appetite for fantastical moral clarity.  It's just not interesting.
Yup. Seems to cheapen the experience.

Not to mention, there is no depth to any of the characters, moral clarity or not.  Does anyone find any of the characters actually interesting?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Bolivar

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« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2018, 06:46:38 pm »
Finally saw it.  Has it happened though?  Am I just too old for Star Wars now?
Try to find out. When I go back to watch the OT, I'm finding new reasons to appreciate them more and more. I know this makes me psychotic but I also feel like the prequels have aged better in light of how derivative the new films have been.

Wilshire

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« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2018, 07:09:36 pm »
Finally saw it.  Has it happened though?  Am I just too old for Star Wars now?
Try to find out. When I go back to watch the OT, I'm finding new reasons to appreciate them more and more. I know this makes me psychotic but I also feel like the prequels have aged better in light of how derivative the new films have been.
Lucas had a brilliant idea and a clear vision for the original trilogy. He basically pioneered a whole industry and invented the means to ensure his vision was executed with extreme precision.

The next three were middling compared to what he did at the start, but at least followed in the big footsteps left before by the original.

Disney has done away with all that and turned it into a cookie cutter action flick - distracting the audience with flashy lights and bringing them in with nothing but the Star Wars logo.
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