[TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE

  • 47 Replies
  • 8411 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Jabberwock03

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 54
    • View Profile
« on: March 06, 2018, 02:12:05 pm »
The second serie is over, now we have to wait for TNG.
But to be honest I would be fine with TUC being the last book (even if all my question about the metaphysic of Earwa are not even close to be answered)!

So I would like to have your opinion about the end, who liked it, who didn't?
Would you have prefered a good ending? A worst one? And speaking about good/bad (reading, in accord or not with your personal values), what do you think would be the worst, the consult winning, Ajokli winning, another god winning, Kellhus doing something on his own, anything else (feel free to rewrite the end of the book ;D) ?

I have to say, I was really happy when I read the GR part, I was already imagining some Kellhus/Ajokli fusion devoring souls in an hellish Earwa! Kellhus saying fuck to the Logos and embrassing godhood with the help of Ajokli somehow.
But then Kelmomas came and fucked it all. I was kinda disappointed, espacially about Kellhus being dead (maybe?) as it was my fav character. But as the days go, I start to enjoy the end much more and the return of the No-God is a great ending too.

I like the way Bakker offered two possible outcome, and that both of them are "bad". Either Kellhus/Ajokli turn Earwa to hell, or the consult kill millions of people to save themselve (and a few undred thousand lucky bastards). All in all, freaking great serie of books!

And another question for fun, how would you like TNG to end? With the consult winning? Or with the gods devouring souls since the end of times?
I trust Bakker to make it epic anyhow.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5843
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2018, 05:08:04 pm »
Possible/plausible endings to TUC.

Lawful-Good Kellhus wins: he defeats the consults, learns some more magic, goes to the outside, defeats all evil, and the universe is saved - permanent heaven on earth (and everywhere else).
This is the version that people who think Kellhus is the good guy want/expect - at least as far as I can tell. IMO, this is the worst possible ending for the series as a whole. Really ruins everything. "Happily Ever After" is not the correct ending for The Second Apocalypse lol.

Neutral/Neutral Kellhus wins: Kellhus defeats consult, learns all the tekne things, leaves Earwa behind to its own demise and goes into the Outside, learns/conquers all the things there (turning it upside down in the process) and move on.
This the the "Kellhus is a means" accumulating machine" ending (the phrase coming form Bakker to describe what Kellhus is): accumulating means (power) for the sake of accumulation and no other purpose. This ending is uninteresting to me. You basically are left with everything Kellhus touches is consumed and left in ruins and the world(s) just kind of move on 'business as usual' and rebuilds, goes back the way it was, whatever. I don't think this makes for much of an ending.

Chaotic Evil Ajokli wins: Creates permanent hell on Earwa, turns the remaining consult into his horseman of the apocalypse (and/or angels of death), suffering without end for all time ensues.
This is the only ending I can see with Ajokli as the absolute winner. Kind of depressing, doesn't make sense for the story as a whole, and is way to clear cut. Nothing in TSA has been so clearly "evil wins, good loses" or vise versa.

New Consult wins: This is what happened. Things are left in flux. Its now a story about men struggling against men for human ends. The Consult now strive to shut the world against the gods. Not sure this is a bad things - the gods are all terrible, but the price is so high. The rest of humanity will strive against them. Whether they know it or not, its the choice about whether or not the cost is too high. Is the price to save humanity from eternal damnation worth damning (eternally) those who must be sacrificed? Can humanity even destroy the Consult now?

This ending is the one that happened and the one that makes sense. IMO, its the perfect ending. It fits all the plot elements, leaves things in a sort of perpetual uncertainty, and leaves open the door for more story to continue. None of the other options leave room for anything significant to happen. Kellhus winning and saving humanity is too much a fairy tale option and doesn't make any sense, and Ajoki winning flat out and turning reality into hell itself is just too depressing.

So yeah, I thought the ending was great in that it fits perfectly. No other option, either above or presented by anyone else, makes any sense given the story we have.

On that note, whether Bakker never publishes another book again or if he writes a whole book every year until he dies, I don't think there will be any more 'conclusion' than what we have here. This is how Earwa will exist, forever an unanswered, unsolvable mystery. We can get more books, more world building, more information, more plots and story lines, more striving against impossible odds, but I don't believe we will ever know the final fate of Earwa.

« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 05:11:36 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

TaoHorror

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 1111
  • Blueberry Psûkhe Sorcerer
    • View Profile
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2018, 05:46:44 pm »
I honestly don't have expectations for the next books. I love being surprised, so while I have speculated as to what happens next and detailed an alternative ending ( I think I did, not so good researching old threads ), I'm not emotionally attached to the story "ending", doesn't have to satisfy me. I put myself in Bakker's hands and look forward to more, whatever it may be.

That all said, it's fun to speculate, if for no other reason it's fun to look back on what we think is happening to see how far off we were. As opposed to "outcome", I would like to see more Consult POV and enjoy flashbacks to their history so we can see how they perceived events, etc.

I love TUC ending as is, wouldn't change it. If I wrote the ending myself, not knowing how it ends, I would have had Kullhus find the loose thread of reality and pull it, undoing the 100 and refashioning reality were humans have a real chance at growth and salvation in that the gods have been holding us back. I had a detailed guess at what happens next, but still writing left handed from my wrist surgery, so taxing at the moment to reference it.
May your death be soon, slow and painful

Jabberwock03

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 54
    • View Profile
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2018, 06:22:05 pm »
Possible/plausible endings to TUC.

Lawful-Good Kellhus wins: he defeats the consults, learns some more magic, goes to the outside, defeats all evil, and the universe is saved - permanent heaven on earth (and everywhere else).
This is the version that people who think Kellhus is the good guy want/expect - at least as far as I can tell. IMO, this is the worst possible ending for the series as a whole. Really ruins everything. "Happily Ever After" is not the correct ending for The Second Apocalypse lol.

Neutral/Neutral Kellhus wins: Kellhus defeats consult, learns all the tekne things, leaves Earwa behind to its own demise and goes into the Outside, learns/conquers all the things there (turning it upside down in the process) and move on.
This the the "Kellhus is a means" accumulating machine" ending (the phrase coming form Bakker to describe what Kellhus is): accumulating means (power) for the sake of accumulation and no other purpose. This ending is uninteresting to me. You basically are left with everything Kellhus touches is consumed and left in ruins and the world(s) just kind of move on 'business as usual' and rebuilds, goes back the way it was, whatever. I don't think this makes for much of an ending.

Chaotic Evil Ajokli wins: Creates permanent hell on Earwa, turns the remaining consult into his horseman of the apocalypse (and/or angels of death), suffering without end for all time ensues.
This is the only ending I can see with Ajokli as the absolute winner. Kind of depressing, doesn't make sense for the story as a whole, and is way to clear cut. Nothing in TSA has been so clearly "evil wins, good loses" or vise versa.

New Consult wins: This is what happened. Things are left in flux. Its now a story about men struggling against men for human ends. The Consult now strive to shut the world against the gods. Not sure this is a bad things - the gods are all terrible, but the price is so high. The rest of humanity will strive against them. Whether they know it or not, its the choice about whether or not the cost is too high. Is the price to save humanity from eternal damnation worth damning (eternally) those who must be sacrificed? Can humanity even destroy the Consult now?

This ending is the one that happened and the one that makes sense. IMO, its the perfect ending. It fits all the plot elements, leaves things in a sort of perpetual uncertainty, and leaves open the door for more story to continue. None of the other options leave room for anything significant to happen. Kellhus winning and saving humanity is too much a fairy tale option and doesn't make any sense, and Ajoki winning flat out and turning reality into hell itself is just too depressing.

So yeah, I thought the ending was great in that it fits perfectly. No other option, either above or presented by anyone else, makes any sense given the story we have.

On that note, whether Bakker never publishes another book again or if he writes a whole book every year until he dies, I don't think there will be any more 'conclusion' than what we have here. This is how Earwa will exist, forever an unanswered, unsolvable mystery. We can get more books, more world building, more information, more plots and story lines, more striving against impossible odds, but I don't believe we will ever know the final fate of Earwa.

>Lawful-Good Kellhus wins
For me it doesn't make much sens anyway as Kellhus is never shown as someone with moral values. Plus, too many good ending in kids movies/books/series, I have a hard time being satisfied by it now.

>Neutral/Neutral Kellhus wins and Chaotic Evil Ajokli wins
I would love those endings if the serie was finnished.
Kellhus doing what he was born to do, even if it make no sens and have no ends. Most nihilistic ending possible in a meaningful world! I like the irony of it while here people look for meaning in a meaningless world.
Or Ajokli winning, the one nobody thought about while the ordeal was going against the consult. Everything just go wild and an evil god take control, the end being worse than anything else anybody in Earwa imagined.

But yes, that ending was the only one fiting a third trilogy (dualogy?). And that's why I like it more and more as time goes. But still sad Kellhus had to die. Go go go Paul Atreides... I mean Kellhus!

Jabberwock03

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 54
    • View Profile
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2018, 06:24:44 pm »
I honestly don't have expectations for the next books. I love being surprised, so while I have speculated as to what happens next and detailed an alternative ending ( I think I did, not so good researching old threads ), I'm not emotionally attached to the story "ending", doesn't have to satisfy me. I put myself in Bakker's hands and look forward to more, whatever it may be.

That all said, it's fun to speculate, if for no other reason it's fun to look back on what we think is happening to see how far off we were. As opposed to "outcome", I would like to see more Consult POV and enjoy flashbacks to their history so we can see how they perceived events, etc.

I love TUC ending as is, wouldn't change it. If I wrote the ending myself, not knowing how it ends, I would have had Kullhus find the loose thread of reality and pull it, undoing the 100 and refashioning reality were humans have a real chance at growth and salvation in that the gods have been holding us back. I had a detailed guess at what happens next, but still writing left handed from my wrist surgery, so taxing at the moment to reference it.

I have to admit I would find it disappointing to have an happy ending in a world and a story like this one. I have difficulty understanding how someone reading fantasy that grimdark could want that, but it's nice to see everybody have different expectations about the same story  ;D !

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5843
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2018, 06:27:38 pm »
Hey no worries, Paul dies. Its Letto's Golden Path  after all ;) . Several discussion around here about potential connection between Dune and TSA, btw.

I have to admit I would find it disappointing to have an happy ending in a world and a story like this one. I have difficulty understanding how someone reading fantasy that grimdark could want that, but it's nice to see everybody have different expectations about the same story  ;D !

I think you'll be continuously surprised at the variety of people and perspectives you find here, should you stick around for a bit.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Jabberwock03

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 54
    • View Profile
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2018, 06:45:44 pm »
I discovered TSA while looking for books similar to Dune after I finnished the last book, so it doesn't surprise me.
Probably my favorite scifi story with Peter Watts Firefall series!

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5843
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2018, 06:57:50 pm »
Dune is superb scifi, and though I've only read Watts' Blindsight I'd agree that he's great as well. I'd put Hyperion (The Hyperion Cantos is 4 books) at the top of my list though, if you are looking for some scifi to read.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Jabberwock03

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 54
    • View Profile
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2018, 07:12:41 pm »
I liked hyperion but not as much, and I couldn't force myself to read Endymion, I stopped after the first book for some reason. 

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2289
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2018, 08:11:24 pm »
Quote from:  Jabberwock
I have to admit I would find it disappointing to have an happy ending in a world and a story like this one.

I always expected and want the same type of ending. In don't see it at all being happy, but rather bleak, but humans prevailing and having chance to rebuild civilization. I know others have expressed your sentiments, id just like to hear your opinion on why you don't/expect a "happy" ending.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2289
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2018, 08:15:48 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
I think you'll be continuously surprised at the variety of people and perspectives you find here, should you stick around for a bit.

Just go ahead and say it Wilshire. MSJ is a sentimental wank and doesn't get what Bakker is doing. He's a hopeless romantic that tossed around the idea that Kellhus loved Esmenet (his only darkness). :)
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TaoHorror

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 1111
  • Blueberry Psûkhe Sorcerer
    • View Profile
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2018, 12:57:50 am »
I honestly don't have expectations for the next books. I love being surprised, so while I have speculated as to what happens next and detailed an alternative ending ( I think I did, not so good researching old threads ), I'm not emotionally attached to the story "ending", doesn't have to satisfy me. I put myself in Bakker's hands and look forward to more, whatever it may be.

That all said, it's fun to speculate, if for no other reason it's fun to look back on what we think is happening to see how far off we were. As opposed to "outcome", I would like to see more Consult POV and enjoy flashbacks to their history so we can see how they perceived events, etc.

I love TUC ending as is, wouldn't change it. If I wrote the ending myself, not knowing how it ends, I would have had Kullhus find the loose thread of reality and pull it, undoing the 100 and refashioning reality were humans have a real chance at growth and salvation in that the gods have been holding us back. I had a detailed guess at what happens next, but still writing left handed from my wrist surgery, so taxing at the moment to reference it.

I have to admit I would find it disappointing to have an happy ending in a world and a story like this one. I have difficulty understanding how someone reading fantasy that grimdark could want that, but it's nice to see everybody have different expectations about the same story  ;D !

Not that it matters, but for clarity, I'm not pulling for any "type" of ending - just answering if I wrote the ending, what it would be. Of the options offered, I like Bakker's ending best as it's not the worst, nor the best that could've happened which is great irony as the dread of TNG appearing through all the books turns out wasn't the worst possibility - something even worse was underfoot.
May your death be soon, slow and painful

Jabberwock03

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 54
    • View Profile
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2018, 09:10:08 am »
Quote from:  Jabberwock
I have to admit I would find it disappointing to have an happy ending in a world and a story like this one.

I always expected and want the same type of ending. In don't see it at all being happy, but rather bleak, but humans prevailing and having chance to rebuild civilization. I know others have expressed your sentiments, id just like to hear your opinion on why you don't/expect a "happy" ending.

I don't say it'll not happen, but it's clearly not the feeling the books gave me for now. through my reading, I had the impression that the world is realistic (for a fantasy world ... let's say coherent), and "happy ending" is not what I see when I look at resolution of real world problems. I see it like we do as well as we can to save the day while still being selfish people. And for me the book show that pretty well.
So I think we will have a bittersweet ending from Bakker.

On a personal level, I find it hard to find really "bad ending" novels/movies. And I think Bakker series would be a great place to have things totally fucked up by the people trying to do there best! Like Achamian damning every human beings forever while trying to fight the No-God, dunno.
(click to show/hide)

Moderator Edit: Spoiler Tag title
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 12:48:22 pm by Wilshire »

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5843
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2018, 12:50:18 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
I think you'll be continuously surprised at the variety of people and perspectives you find here, should you stick around for a bit.

Just go ahead and say it Wilshire. MSJ is a sentimental wank and doesn't get what Bakker is doing. He's a hopeless romantic that tossed around the idea that Kellhus loved Esmenet (his only darkness). :)
lol
We've all got our things and I value your opinions :) .
One of the other conditions of possibility.

TaoHorror

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 1111
  • Blueberry Psûkhe Sorcerer
    • View Profile
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2018, 03:00:52 pm »
lol
We've all got our things and I value your opinions :) .

You're going to take that sitting down, MSJ?! A clear insult if there ever was one!  >:(
May your death be soon, slow and painful