[Spoilers] Is the Consult doomed to fail?

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Ain't Germain

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« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2018, 10:21:51 am »
Oh right, false son was way before Nau.
Checked the chapter 1 excerpt, didn't say anything about it. Ah well. If he did see a reflection, he obviously didn't see nothing.

We do/don't get a glimpse of what Nau-Cayuti sees in the IF at the end of TGO in Achamian's dream. The only substantial thing there, however, is even more perplexing: NC's rumination that "he has always worn hell as a wig".

I will return to this thread to elaborate on my own thoughts, but for now I will just chime in that I also am strongly inclined toward the opinion that the IF is not showing the reality of what one experiences after dying, simply because it's impossible for a living, temporal being to conceive the experience of atemporal death. As a result, what people see in the IF is a distortion of what the afterlife experience actually is like. I don't think the IF is just a 100% bullshit machine per se -- it's an interface, quite literally according to what would seem to be an Inchoroi definition in the TUC glossary. Like any interface, it can only serve as a (flawed) representation of the reality lurking behind the scenes, as it were.

H

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« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2018, 12:35:46 pm »
I will return to this thread to elaborate on my own thoughts, but for now I will just chime in that I also am strongly inclined toward the opinion that the IF is not showing the reality of what one experiences after dying, simply because it's impossible for a living, temporal being to conceive the experience of atemporal death. As a result, what people see in the IF is a distortion of what the afterlife experience actually is like. I don't think the IF is just a 100% bullshit machine per se -- it's an interface, quite literally according to what would seem to be an Inchoroi definition in the TUC glossary. Like any interface, it can only serve as a (flawed) representation of the reality lurking behind the scenes, as it were.

Well, unfortunately, we don't know and probably never will know exactly how or why the Inverse Fire functions.  I guess I just really like the idea that the Inverse Fire is the truth, just not the whole truth.  And it isn't a lie, at least not in the sense that it isn't, in some capacity, a truth.  The Inverse Fire, much like the idea of nihilism itself, is just a trap.  The honey-pot that lures you in, of course, is that it is literally based on truth.  It just isn't truth immutable.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2018, 03:57:52 pm »
Quote from:  H
Well, unfortunately, we don't know and probably never will know exactly how or why the Inverse Fire functions.  I guess I just really like the idea that the Inverse Fire is the truth, just not the whole truth.  And it isn't a lie, at least not in the sense that it isn't, in some capacity, a truth.  The Inverse Fire, much like the idea of nihilism itself, is just a trap.  The honey-pot that lures you in, of course, is that it is literally based on truth.  It just isn't truth immutable.

Tangent. If we never get "fair" (and fair being some are answered) resolution to many of the plot lines, does that effect the overall series to you (anyone, please answer would like to know others thoughts, as wel)?

For me, it would. There are so many interesting mysteries throughout the series. It would be a shame if none of them were thought out, and don't have any conclusions. I think it would be lazy as a writer. And, Bakker doesn't strike me as a lazy writer. I have to assume he goes somewhere with them.

“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2018, 04:24:01 pm »
Tangent. If we never get "fair" (and fair being some are answered) resolution to many of the plot lines, does that effect the overall series to you (anyone, please answer would like to know others thoughts, as wel)?

For me, it would. There are so many interesting mysteries throughout the series. It would be a shame if none of them were thought out, and don't have any conclusions. I think it would be lazy as a writer. And, Bakker doesn't strike me as a lazy writer. I have to assume he goes somewhere with them.

Does it effect it?  Absolutely.  Is it a deal breaker though?  No, not really.  While I like answers, it doesn't bother me to have questions that don't have answers.  I'd rather there be answers, but if the series is really just a long, wordy Rorschach test, then I can accept that.  Although I'd like it better if there was more.

I don't think Bakker is lazy, I just think that he often has more ideas than he knows what to do with...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2018, 05:20:00 pm »
Tangent. If we never get "fair" (and fair being some are answered) resolution to many of the plot lines, does that effect the overall series to you (anyone, please answer would like to know others thoughts, as wel)?

For me, it would. There are so many interesting mysteries throughout the series. It would be a shame if none of them were thought out, and don't have any conclusions. I think it would be lazy as a writer. And, Bakker doesn't strike me as a lazy writer. I have to assume he goes somewhere with them.



Does it affect the overall series?
Of course. The words written and the words not written both effect the series.

Would it be a shame if we got no more answer than what we have now?
Yes. It would be nice to have some more concrete answers.

Would it make me like the story any less?
No. I like the story as written. There are many stories that go unfinished. Dune comes to mind as one that cannot be finished. I still like them despite being unfinished. Plenty of others that imo are unlikely to be finished - Kingkiller Chronicles, Gentleman Bastards, Second Apocalypse, etc. - and that does not diminish my enjoyment.

Does that make Bakker lazy?
Depends. He could write a quick blog post that just lists out present mysteries and ends them. That would be extremely unsatisfying and would diminish the series. He could write that the consult accidentally blow up the arc, creating an explosion that exterminates all life, thus ending the series. This would be unsatisfying. I'd call both instances very lazy.

I believe he intends to finish the story, and that in his mind the readers will have been given enough information to answer any mystery once finished. Regardless of whether or not we can figure things out, I wouldn't categorize that as lazy writing.
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2018, 05:32:09 pm »
Well ... hmm ... so in my not so humble opinion ... Bakker's writing rises to the level of "art". Therefore, I require nothing from him. It could well be the "message" is there are things beyond our understanding - the author being a part of that "our" - and to "nail it down" would be to diminish the majesty of the mystery we live. Bakker is artfully bringing up fascinating subjects that drive my mind and I love the cat for being able to do that. I'm fine with TUC being the end of it, really. I concede I want more because I find reading his books so much fun. So, the answer to your question - not much either way would it impact how I "feel" about the story. The damn thing is just too exciting to allow "incompleteness" to ruin it for me. And, quite frankly, it's mostly complete already. If he has concrete "rules" on The Outside and TNG, great, let's have it. If he doesn't, don't blame him - who would know, really?
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H

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« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2018, 05:34:17 pm »
I believe he intends to finish the story, and that in his mind the readers will have been given enough information to answer any mystery once finished. Regardless of whether or not we can figure things out, I wouldn't categorize that as lazy writing.

I don't know that his aim though is for us to be able to "definitively" answer certain things though.  This whole forum, pretty much, is dedicated to us "finding" answers.  But solid, definitive answers they are not.  I don't know that providing any is really Bakker's aim.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

TaoHorror

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« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2018, 05:58:26 pm »
I believe he intends to finish the story, and that in his mind the readers will have been given enough information to answer any mystery once finished. Regardless of whether or not we can figure things out, I wouldn't categorize that as lazy writing.

I don't know that his aim though is for us to be able to "definitively" answer certain things though.  This whole forum, pretty much, is dedicated to us "finding" answers.  But solid, definitive answers they are not.  I don't know that providing any is really Bakker's aim.

Do you think Bakker reads this stuff? Wonder if he's laughing, dismayed or pleased with how much we've picked up on and got wrong.
May your death be soon, slow and painful

H

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« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2018, 07:12:59 pm »
Do you think Bakker reads this stuff? Wonder if he's laughing, dismayed or pleased with how much we've picked up on and got wrong.

Well, we do know he's read some small amount of it and I think "genuinely bewildered" would be a pretty accurate summation of how he feels.  I mean, there is literally stuff he thinks is in the books that actually isn't, so...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Ain't Germain

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« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2018, 11:33:57 pm »
While I would definitely appreciate some greater detail on certain things (Psukhe, Aporos, metaphysics in general), the only thing that would come close to a "deal-breaker"  for me would be not getting any resolution to Seswatha, and to a lesser extent Serwe's importance. The latter I'm sort of okay with being more of an obscure puzzle, but I absolutely feel we need some legit Seswatha explanations (I'm not particularly concerned about this though since I think the Seswatha-mysteries are deliberately being kept for end-game material).

Honestly the biggest thing I want from TNG is seeing perspectives of "both sides" of the war, since I think that was a really strong element in the first trilogy (primarily with the Ikurei serving as the main antagonists) that was basically non-existent in TAE. The ever-increasing Sranc hordes also started losing steam for me by TGO, so I would very much like some more human-on-human (or human-on-Dunyain) conflicts.

Oh, and please god give me just one new Tekne monstrosity. All of the established Weapon Races have gotten good screen-time and multiple moments to shine by this point, and it would almost seem stupid that the Mutilated wouldn't make at least one innovation here.

MSJ

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« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2018, 12:17:23 am »
Thanks for all the replies! I certainly understand everyone's pov.

I just feel a little resolution is what's needed. If all these plot lines go on muddled in the story, I just feel it a waste. Not saying it will effect my fandom at all.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Ain't Germain

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« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2018, 12:34:27 am »
To further clarify, I absolutely would not be satisfied with the series ending with TUC, nor would I be happy with TNG just being an extension of various plot elements and characters fizzling out with minimal connections to each other. I really feel like the story needs to go all the way and get to the 144k survivors -- though I also think the strongest ending would be one where the good guys don't win, but also where the Consult ends up not achieving what they think they're achieving.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2018, 05:01:01 am »
Perhaps the most important thing to be answered still has to be what really happened to Shaeönanra, but beyond that I won't be too bothered if things aren't answered. The Inverse Fire for example, has an in my opinion pretty much straight forward definition in the glossary and on top of the things we learn from the main story and The False Sun, I don't think we really need that much more.
If the books ended with TUC I wouldn't be too sad, since the ending heavily hints at a Consult victory and it goes in hand with the whole crash space stuff, but obviously I'm looking forward to seeing more of The Mutilated and hopefully also some Aurax bits.
My biggest fear is that now that the main story is over that Bakker will three-pound-brain the books up too much. Some of his other books, e.g. Neuropath, suffer from that.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 07:09:31 am by TLEILAXU »

profgrape

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« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2018, 08:28:32 pm »
When it comes to answers, we should be careful what we wish for.  As much as I really want, for example, to know how the Psukhe functions, there's a part of me that knows that the ambiguity is a big reason I love these books. 

Or to put it succinctly: Midichlorians.

MSJ

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« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2018, 09:24:43 pm »
Quote from:  profgrape
When it comes to answers, we should be careful what we wish for.  As much as I really want, for example, to know how the Psukhe functions, there's a part of me that knows that the ambiguity is a big reason I love these books. 

Or to put it succinctly: Midichlorians.

Let me rephrase myself a bit. I don't need every mystery spelled out, I want a "payoff" for some of the plotlines. I don't need to know how the JE works, I want the JE to play a meaningful part; the plot to have a significant outcome. The dreams, same. I don't need to know the how, rather the why.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,