The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash

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Cnaiür vs Karsa vs Drogo

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« on: May 22, 2021, 07:47:51 am »
Is it possible the nonmen leading the sranc army are from ishteribinth? the delegation that shows up to the ordeal says theyre surprised they survived. maybe they were in on it.

Also I never put this together, but it can't be a coincidence that they wanted kelhus to go to dagliash and there happened to be a crazy trap there, all while depriving him of his most trusted sorceress + 2. A very tidy trap now that I think on it.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 03:43:36 pm by H »
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Quinthane

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« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2021, 04:21:31 pm »
Yes. The very deadly Consult trap that, seemingly, could have gone undetected by Kellhus and detonated wiping out the Ordeal and most importantly...Kellhus....

...thus making System Resumption an impossibility.

For a goal that relies entirely on the insertion of a living, breathing person with Anasurimbor blood, the Consult seems to play awfully fast and loose with things. Detonating an atomic bomb, using the Heron Spear’s sister spear to nearly kill Serwa, then Skuthula to nearly kill Kyutas and to actually kill Serwa. Then a skin-spy kills Kellhus. And the arrival of Kelmomus seemed wasn’t on anyone s playbook.

It bugs me. And there’s nobody that loves this story more that me, but...it bugs me.



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Wilshire

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« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2021, 12:59:45 pm »
Yes. The very deadly Consult trap that, seemingly, could have gone undetected by Kellhus and detonated wiping out the Ordeal and most importantly...Kellhus....

...thus making System Resumption an impossibility.

For a goal that relies entirely on the insertion of a living, breathing person with Anasurimbor blood, the Consult seems to play awfully fast and loose with things. Detonating an atomic bomb, using the Heron Spear’s sister spear to nearly kill Serwa, then Skuthula to nearly kill Kyutas and to actually kill Serwa. Then a skin-spy kills Kellhus. And the arrival of Kelmomus seemed wasn’t on anyone s playbook.

It bugs me. And there’s nobody that loves this story more that me, but...it bugs me.

Those are all... very good points lol. Especially because we know the Dunyain are the Consult at this point. I think we're supposed to assume they how to get the No-God running again.

Maybe they figured if they did end up killing all of them, they could either go back and grab Theli, or maybe force one of themselves into the thing. After 2000 years, all the Dunyain are a least a little Anasurimbor.

So maybe as an excuse we can say that Kellhus alive is more of a threat than Kellhus dead.
Or, that they came to the same conclusion that Kellhus did, and figured that whoever needed to live to make it into the No-God and seal the world would eventually just make it into the golden room. Since it "already happened"...

That said, those are pretty unsatisfying excuses.
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H

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« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2021, 04:57:55 pm »
I don't know, I still think that even if Dagliash goes perfectly well for the Consult there is essentially near zero chance that Kellhus himself is killed.  The aim is likely to reduce the Ordeal itself to near inoperability, so that when Kellhus arrives, he will not be aided.  Granted, near zero is not zero, but the Consult likely has to risk it, because they can't allow the Ordeal to just walk up to the door, that has too many confounding variables to account for really.

So, I think it's a little odd, no doubt, but it has some sense to it.  Is it risky?  Yes.  But is it more or less risky than just letting Kellhus do whatever he wants?  Unclear, but likely not too much either way.

Another thing to consider is that the Consult still is playing some manner of charades.  They have to "pretend" that they want to kill Kellhus, because deliberately avoiding killing him would be a dead giveaway of their whole plan.  Which means Kellhus might suss it out and fail to show up.  The crux might well be that they don't know that Kellhus' plan is specifically to waltz in regardless of what they do, so they have to lure him somehow and not tip their hand.

It might work better in thinking that Dagliash is really a risky demonstration.  I think they realize that post-Metagnosis, they cannot possibly threaten Kellhus' person, so they take to a dog and pony show in order to convince him that they have the more effective way of dealing with the "Damnation problem."  That isn't without some risk, but again, the allow Kellhus to realize that they have no interest in killing him is probably even more risky.  Along with the fact that an intact Ordeal is likely a unneeded confounding variable in the whole plan.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

The P

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« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2021, 09:19:16 pm »
I am not sold on the Dunsult knowing it needs Kellhus, nor even that he could be an insertant.

H

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« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2021, 09:45:10 pm »
I am not sold on the Dunsult knowing it needs Kellhus, nor even that he could be an insertant.

But they did, it's why they took the Chorae off the Carapace.

They even say as much:
Quote
“And you think I’m the missing piece?” Kellhus asked. “The Subject that will revive this ... system?”

Was that why the Chorae had been removed from the Carapace? For him? It seemed to Malowebi that he strangled ...

The nearest of the disfigured Dûnyain, the burnt one, nodded. “The Celmomian Prophecy foretells your coming, Brother.”

I also just realized that we are in the TGO section.  Should we spoiler this stuff, or move it to the TUC section?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

The P

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« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2021, 11:22:51 pm »
Oh yeah, this should probably be moved.  I don't know how to spoiler tag from my phone, so I'll refrain from posting more.

H

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« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2021, 03:41:34 pm »
Oh yeah, this should probably be moved.  I don't know how to spoiler tag from my phone, so I'll refrain from posting more.

No need, I split off the topic and moved it to TUC, so we can post away, spoiler tag free.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2021, 09:04:17 am »
But they did, it's why they took the Chorae off the Carapace.
I heavily dispute this reasoning. In this case, first, they had enough time to put the Chorae back on after ultimately going with Kelmomas. Second, it is absolutely unclear that the Chorae would even damage the Insertant, since the Carapace is thick enough to serve as protection - the Chorae are on the outside of it, while the Insertant is inside.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 11:17:38 am by SmilerLoki »

The P

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« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2021, 12:47:11 pm »

But they did, it's why they took the Chorae off the Carapace.

They even say as much:
Quote
“And you think I’m the missing piece?” Kellhus asked. “The Subject that will revive this ... system?”

Was that why the Chorae had been removed from the Carapace? For him? It seemed to Malowebi that he strangled ...

The nearest of the disfigured Dûnyain, the burnt one, nodded. “The Celmomian Prophecy foretells your coming, Brother.”

Still not convinced.  I will try to put out my thoughts.  I'm erratic and in sore need of a reread.  If the Celmomian Prophesy is the basis for their "knowledge" of needing Kellhus as an insertant, they are making some intense cognitive leaps (which I guess maybe I can't be expected to understand, them being Dunyain and all).  All the prophesy says is an Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world.  I don't think there's any more to it, since we are shown the scene where Celmomas says it to Seswatha.  That's so vague, it could mean any of the many Anasurimbors running around, why decide on the most difficult to grab?  I take the disfigured's nod to be more saying, "well, here you are, so we're going to plug you in and see what happens."

If they really think the Anasurimbor lineage is the key to awakening the No-God, why aren't they plugging in one of their own?  Surely at least one of the disfigured has some Anasurimbor blood in them.  If they knew the original insertant, it seems logical they'd want to try another Anasurimbor, but did the Consult even know who the original insertant was?  My impression was Nau-Cayuti was just another faceless attempt in a long procession of souls (but it's been a while since I read that scene).

It's easier for me to believe the Consult/Dunsult is ignorant of how to start the No-God than it is for me to believe they're just pretending to try to kill Kellhus to lure him in.  All the while ignoring any of his more accessible offspring or ishualian relations for 20 years.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2021, 01:27:25 pm »
Speaking of the Dunyain all having Anasurimbor blood - I think Bakker is making an effort to counter this argument when he talks about the Twelve Germs (if memory serves), of which the Anasurimbor one is the most promising. Since the Germs are pointedly named as different from each other, I get the idea that the Dunyain in their generational selection quest were strict about keeping the lineages separated.

H

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« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2021, 01:47:37 pm »
I heavily dispute this reasoning. In this case, first, they had enough time to put the Chorae back on after ultimately going with Kelmomas. Second, it is absolutely unclear that the Chorae would even damage the Insertant, since the Carapace is thick enough to serve as protection - the Chorae are on the outside of it, while the Insertant is inside.

Well, I was slightly incorrect, it's Kellhus thinking this is why, not them saying it.  In any case though, I am not sure why you think they'd have that time though.  I mean, from our abstract, third person knowledge, we do know they likely have plenty of time, but they stuff little Kel in there post-haste, so they seemingly don't think they do.  We also have no idea how the Chorae are affixed though, so we don't know really how long it would take really.

It's easier for me to believe the Consult/Dunsult is ignorant of how to start the No-God than it is for me to believe they're just pretending to try to kill Kellhus to lure him in.  All the while ignoring any of his more accessible offspring or ishualian relations for 20 years.

Well, I think you are 100% correct, they do not know, they are just guessing.  But, I'd still contend that they (for whatever reason) consider it likely that Kellhus is the "right fit" or, at least, not the wrong fit.  In other words, since they have no real idea what makes it work, they are looking to try any and all ideas.  Which might explain why they take the Chorae off, in case Serwa needs to go in, or whoever else is left.  They also have no idea if the Chorae might kill the Insertant or not, so why risk it?

Speaking of the Dunyain all having Anasurimbor blood - I think Bakker is making an effort to counter this argument when he talks about the Twelve Germs (if memory serves), of which the Anasurimbor one is the most promising. Since the Germs are pointedly named as different from each other, I get the idea that the Dunyain in their generational selection quest were strict about keeping the lineages separated.

Yeah, I agree here very much.  I do not believe that all Dunyain are Anasurimbors.  In fact, I think it is very much the opposite case, that they were actively working toward isolating the lineage into that one germline.  Whether that is of some "mystical" importantance or a way of distilling out the distant Nonman relation, who knows though.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2021, 02:00:32 pm »
Well, I was slightly incorrect, it's Kellhus thinking this is why, not them saying it.
It's actually Malowebi thinking it.

In any case though, I am not sure why you think they'd have that time though.
They aren't exactly in a hurry after the System is Resumed, nothing is threatening them by that point (the Ordeal is contained and its Aspect-Emperor is salt). And if there are significant technical issues with affixing the Chorae back on, I would be inclined to believe they are somehow part of the entire design and not just protection. Not that the No-God even needed it to begin with, too - while fully operational it's too high up to reach with Cants. This is why I think the Dunyain did something with the System, it's not exactly the same as it was before, so the removal of the Chorae isn't just a simple precaution, it's perhaps something more ominous.

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« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2021, 02:06:37 pm »
It's actually Malowebi thinking it.

Oh, yeah, forgot who's perspective we are in there.


They aren't exactly in a hurry after the System is Resumed, nothing is threatening them by that point (the Ordeal is contained and its Aspect-Emperor is salt). And if there are significant technical issues with affixing the Chorae back on, I would be inclined to believe they are somehow part of the entire design and not just protection. Not that the No-God even needed it to begin with, too - while fully operational it's too high up to reach with Cants. This is why I think the Dunyain did something with the System, it's not exactly the same as it was before, so the removal of the Chorae isn't just a simple precaution, it's perhaps something more ominous.

Well, I mean, they likely shouldn't be, but they rush the Sarcophagus right back out there soon after.  We know the Ordeal could hardly do anything to them, but seemingly they are still worried about it and want the No-God to finish them, since they run it out there with little to no delay.  Should they have waited?  Probably, but either they were too eager, or after putting little Kel in, they can't really keep with totally under wraps.

Also they likely can't wait to try little Kel, since they need to know if he works as soon as possible, since there is a real chance that the rest of the kids are out there dead or dying.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2021, 02:13:00 pm »
And this is why I think that they didn't wait because there was nothing to wait for, meaning the Chorae are no longer needed and not just removed for the sake of a prospective Insertant.