Excerpt - The Unholy Consult, Chapter One

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Wilshire

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« Reply #150 on: June 13, 2013, 09:45:53 pm »
Nonman can't be mistaken, and Bekker isn't that kind of writer to pull out "piano in bushes" to somehow eliminate the fact he stated before.

As far as I can tell, wrong on both accounts.

In fact, Nonman are terribly susceptible to mistakes. They only have parts of memories and the Erratic only remember tragedy anyway. He could have just thought he looked like an Anasurimbor but that doesn't make it so.

Also, we know that Bakker specifically has wrong/misleading information everywhere in the books. At this point, those of us around here like to believe that much of what is written can, and is, plausibly false. (Coming up with reasons for out crazy ideas has become quite the pastime)

Character accounts are flawed, since no one character has all the information. Achamian is wrong an awful lot.

At one point in WLW, just before the Coffers, Cleric thinks that Achamian actually is Seswatha. That right there is an example that points to the potential inaccuracy of both your statements.

One last thing, the Appendix has some incorrect info in there, and that isn't even part of narrative. In that case, Bakker is doing the misleading.




None of that really answers your original question though. How about this: adoption and/or infidelity. We don't know a whole lot about the Ganrelka line (or at least I don't). It is possible that somewhere along the way his line was not "truely" Anasurimbor.


However, I doubt it. I think Kellhus being Anasurimbor is extremely likely. Though it also likely that he is not the one the prophesy foretold of. He might not be the Harbinger.
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Kein

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« Reply #151 on: June 13, 2013, 11:23:10 pm »
Achamian's dreams in The White Luck Warrior explicitly state that Seswatha was carrying on an affair with Anasurimbor Celmomas' wife.  Seswatha also seems attached to Nau Cayuti as though he were NC's father.
An I mentioned that for this to work, Kelmomas' wife must be Anasurimbor as well. Which implies incest in the family. Was it ever mentioned in the books? I don't doubt that Bekker can easily introduce such thing, it is just usually he does not do that without preparing the ground or putting clues or hints there and there. No deus ex elements.

another possibility is that we do not know Seswatha's heritage (iirc he was an orphan) so he could be the classical fantasy 'hidden heir'.
In support of the hidden heir supposition, Seswatha and Anasurimbor Celmomas are the same age and Celmomas had a twin brother who 'died in infancy.'
"Hidden heir" or, in another words, "Retrospective Continuity", which usually takes place in b-grade literature when author wants to make a sudden twist in the boring plotline or justify some holes. No offense but that is not Bekker.
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Madness
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We know this actually - Bakker asked a question years ago on Zombie Three-Seas. I wouldn't want to be the person to spoil it for you and it's ulterior to what I actually meant:
When the Nonman tells Kellhus he recognized him as Anasurimbor, he fumbles with a particular face on his cloak. I was wondering who that Anasurimbor was?
By all means, spoiler away, I have no issues with spoilers at all and I'm greedy for some information related to books that is not in the books.

Quote
The Dunyain Anasurimbor are the offspring of Ganrelka's Bastard.
I think I missed where it says so. I thought Kelmomas sent his own son into Ishual, as he was telling to Seswatcha one day?

However, I doubt it. I think Kellhus being Anasurimbor is extremely likely. Though it also likely that he is not the one the prophesy foretold of. He might not be the Harbinger.
Yeah, I don't think he is Harbinger and the one that prophecy was about, in fact, I think he will be the one
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« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 11:25:24 pm by Kein »

locke

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« Reply #152 on: June 14, 2013, 12:03:05 am »
Quote
An I mentioned that for this to work, Kelmomas' wife must be Anasurimbor as well. Which implies incest in the family.

Not really, all you need is for NC to be officially acknowledged to be considered an Anasurimbor, you don't have to have his mother be an Anasurimbor as well.  So long as Celmomas is ignorant of the affair, Nau Cayuti is an official Anasurimbor and secretly a bastard.  Celmomas was cuckolded, but presumably did not know it.

But that point is moot because Nau Cayuti is not Ganrelka's heir.

We know from the books that Celmomas' ancestor divided his kingdom amongst his three sons, Aorsi, Kuniuri, and Sheneor.  All three sons ruled these respective kingdoms and all three sons kept the name Anasurimbor.

The Darkness that Comes Before tells us in the prologue that Ganrelka, the last king of kuniuri dies, survived only by his bastard son.  Presumably, this is where the name Anasurimbor entered the Dunyain+Bastard population of Ishual, and the name Anasurimbor survived there because the bastard called himself an Anasurimbor (unless another Anasurimbor came to Ishual with the Dunyain or after the Dunyain arrived at Ishual.)

The appendix to TTT tells us that Ganrelka was born when Celmomas was fifteen.  This means he was conceived when Celmomas was fourteen.

This means that Ganrelka is either Celmomas' younger brother or Celmomas' eldest son (as it seems extremely unlikely that another son would be older).

The appendix also tells us that Nau Cayuti was Celmomas' youngest son, which means Nau Cayuti has at least one older brother.

It is also possible that Ganrelka is not of Celmomas' line at all, but of the lines of one of the Anasurmibor kings of Aorsi or Sheneor.  However since he is discribed as being of Kuniuri this is extremely unlikely, unless he knew all the other Anasurimbor kings were dead and believed himself to have inherited the king titles from aorsi and sheneor.  Again, that seems unlikely.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 12:05:05 am by locke »

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #153 on: June 14, 2013, 12:28:19 pm »
They only have parts of memories and the Erratic only remember tragedy anyway. He could have just thought he looked like an Anasurimbor but that doesn't make it so.

Erratics remember many mundane details.  Cleric provides clear evidence of this as he leads the scalpers through Cil Aujis.  They seek trauma to regain knowlege of themselves - who they were.  Those are the memories that can bind their fractured personalities.
But yeh, Nonmen can definately be mistaken.  But due to the identity of the nonman in question, there would be good reason for the face on his cloak to have been an Anasurimbor.

On topic, there is no reason to think Akka's dreams are true anyway.   There are two options imo.

If they are meant to precipitate something (which seems very likely) then something must be causing them. 
Moenghus sent dreams to dunyain @ Ishual, why shouldn't Khellus sends dreams to Akka? 

The other possibility is that Akka can access Seswatha's soul-memories (which are be 'stored' outside and accessed via the Grasping ritual).
Because Seswatha is actually Nau-Catyuti's father, Akka is able to access Nau's memories because of the ancestor relationship that most Earwan metaphysics alude to.  (I.e. the familial mini-dimensions that can intercede to save a soul.)
This (and Seswatha and Celmomas' estrangment) would explain the narrative necesity of including Seswatha's affair with the empress.

Either way there is the question of the timing of the dreams with actual events.  Does it seem like they are affecting the actions of Akka and thus affecting causality?

I feel that there is a chance that Ganrelka was Cel's first son - born of a teenage daliance and not originally expected to figure in the succession.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

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« Reply #154 on: June 14, 2013, 01:41:39 pm »
By all means, spoiler away, I have no issues with spoilers at all and I'm greedy for some information related to books that is not in the books.

Mekeritrig

Quote
The Dunyain Anasurimbor are the offspring of Ganrelka's Bastard.
I think I missed where it says so. I thought Kelmomas sent his own son into Ishual, as he was telling to Seswatcha one day?

I'm not 100% sure - and don't have TJE on me - but I believe Celmomas does say to Seswatha that he's building Ishual "as somewhere his line can survive" but I took that to mean a final refuge for House Anasurimbor, something any of the Family might use for respite. He tells Seswatha to hide the map to Ishual in the coffers.

I feel that there is a chance that Ganrelka was Cel's first son - born of a teenage daliance and not originally expected to figure in the succession.

It probably isn't that far-fetched to think that Ganrelka is Celmomas' firstborn; arranged marriages, pubescent viability, etc.
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MariaWB

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« Reply #155 on: June 20, 2013, 03:15:23 am »
Quote from: Tony P
Fuck me, I gobbled that up. Feeling indigestion setting on as I mull it over.

Thanks to Scott for his preview!

About the Inchoroi:
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Ed.: I assume this will be checked for spelling errors? I think I found some. Please let Scott know I'd be happy to proof-read TUC... 8-)

Hahaha wouldn't you indeed! I seem to remember the artist/s designing the covers for the last two Harry Potter books weren't allowed to read the book first, but was simply told what to draw. Then again, you can't proofread without reading it. Maybe he does that himself?

Baztek

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« Reply #156 on: June 20, 2013, 06:19:03 am »
Goddamnit when is this book coming ouuuuuttt

Wilshire

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« Reply #157 on: June 20, 2013, 11:33:51 pm »
Goddamnit when is this book coming ouuuuuttt

I thought it was close 6 months ago. But that hope was fizzled out and I'm back to no longer wishing and just waiting. Since waiting is much less disappointing.
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Duskweaver

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« Reply #158 on: June 21, 2013, 08:47:59 am »
Amazon.co.uk says the 4th of July next year. Several other online bookstores say the 4th of July this year. Still others rather hilariously list a date in July last year. So who the fuck knows?
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« Reply #159 on: June 23, 2013, 02:43:47 pm »
It'll happen. The Logos is without beginning or end...
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Inraus Ghost

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« Reply #160 on: January 28, 2014, 10:37:15 am »
Wow, that was a powerfully written dream. It's revelations and and the further questions they spawned made it a bit hard to focus back on Akka and Mimara. Like I'd awoke from a nightmare myself.

Edit> Ok so Ieva was working with the consult and one of NC's last memories before being buried alive was of her "plundering his loins with wild abandon". I'm wondering if the Celmoman prophecy may be a bad thing. I realize that it is highly possible that NC isn't even "of Cel's seed" but perhaps that's a red herring. Or NC's spirit, thinking himself Cel's son, would call his own issue his father's seed. Or maybe the loin plundering is just in there to illustrate her being influenced by the consult.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 01:47:11 pm by Inraus Ghost »

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« Reply #161 on: January 28, 2014, 10:09:40 pm »
Wow, that was a powerfully written dream. It's revelations and and the further questions they spawned made it a bit hard to focus back on Akka and Mimara. Like I'd awoke from a nightmare myself.

One of the more superb achievements of the forum's existence. TUC is going to be a-mazing!

Edit> Ok so Ieva was working with the consult and one of NC's last memories before being buried alive was of her "plundering his loins with wild abandon". I'm wondering if the Celmoman prophecy may be a bad thing. I realize that it is highly possible that NC isn't even "of Cel's seed" but perhaps that's a red herring. Or NC's spirit, thinking himself Cel's son, would call his own issue his father's seed. Or maybe the loin plundering is just in there to illustrate her being influenced by the consult.

It is possible.
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Cüréthañ

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« Reply #162 on: February 01, 2014, 12:39:49 pm »
Relevant to genelogical speculation; according to Akka, Kellhus is the spitting image of Nau Cayuti.
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #163 on: February 25, 2014, 08:58:37 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: Madness
"With them marched the Vokalati, the feared Sun-wailers of Nilnamesh, under the Grandmaster known only as Carindusu, notorious for his insolence in the presence of the Aspect-Emperor and for his rumoured theft of the Mandate Gnosis" (WLW, p85).

That is something I've always been curious about. My italics. And yes, they're never mentioned in the PON but neither are lots of things... striptease ;).
Yeah, you can see that becoming a two birds with one stone thang - insolent (possibly a Conphas level sociopath and unmanipulatable/innefficiently manipulatable). Somehow manipulated to go mad during the battle (subtle poisons/hallucinogens employment, even)

And bring down the Mandate as well? Well, the Sethwatha homonculous in them makes them kind of fixated/harder to manipulate. Also they remember the past. Without the past, there is less context to have to work within when manipulating.

Possibly leaked Gnosis knowledge to Carindusu for the purposes of the dual elimination as well.

Do not know if this is a dead horse, but I thought "his rumored theft of the gnosis" referred to the character mentioned just before the pronoun, Kellhus.  As in Carindusu is notorious for two things: 1) insolence towards kellhus' presence and 2) insolence towards kellhus' manner of procuring the gnosis.

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« Reply #164 on: March 12, 2014, 04:48:20 pm »
I gotta say that the TUC chapter 1 excerpt really flipped my notion of Shae.  I had assumed that he and his entire school were nothing more than an Inchoroi tool.  The False Sun seemed to confirm this for me (Shae worried about being replaceable).  But the way Shae is presented in the dream and the way Akka regards him as "Lord of the Consult" reversed that or put it in doubt.  Before, I thought we would find Aurax at the center of the Consult web with Aurang as chief field officer, Shae and everyone else as magic helpers.  Can't wait to see how the Consult is structure and what things like "ranking member" mean for them.  Paid his dues and attended enough biweekly meetings?