[What Came Before]

Pretty sure Cel refers to the prophesied one as 'he'.

[What Came Before]

+1 lockesnow on Esmenet's line -> Last Scion of Anasurimbor Celmomas.

The Bastard's line is false!

Also, Bakker said he's giving the second half of the chapter - though I'd figure it for another small snippet - to Pat at some point in the future... much closer to the actual release date.

I wait patiently for news... One day riders will come.

Also, my possessive semen... of course it's about Celmomas specific seed. Comon'.

[What Came Before]

You can't just discount the possessive "MY" because it is convenient.

And you can't hold onto it because its convenient either. "My" is no more important than any other word in the sentence, especially alone.

It is simply the most obvious way to describe an Anasurimbor descendent.

How else would would a patriarch see all of the members of his house? All the decedents would be of his seed because he is the big man of the house. He was dying, so he made it real obvious. Anasurimbor is a big word to mumble in your last breath, so he choose "my seed".

[What Came Before]

wow, that's a stretch.  My seed always refers to one's offspring.  My line would refer to one's family/heritage.

and he says Anasurimbor after he says my seed, so that shoots down your last breath argument.

[What Came Before]

Not to pour gas but I believe what the two of you are discussing is of crucial importance.

I've voiced my opinion. It's Bakker, he says seed, dude's got semen all over the book, pretty sure it refers to direct genetic line - however, in an anthro class I'm upgrading from first year I recently relearned that siblings count as your genetic material passing down the line because siblings all include your parent's entire set of dominant and recessive alleles. By those standards, your nieces and nephews are as good as sons or daughters.

So Ganrelka, brother or son, doesn't matter. Obviously, Nau-Cayuti's line is more important because that might be Seswatha's lineage. Then there are the question of adoption, mundane or metaphysical - this would draw in the question of Wilshire's here, I think, are names, titles, the only real metaphysical importance/recognition?

I do think we're onto something with the Last Scion parallel.

Btw, out of curiousity, have you all realized that Mimara is going to die giving birth to a stillborn baby?

[What Came Before]

or the last live-born baby.

Or even more puzzling a living baby born without a soul.  The world's first 'disenchanted' human.

[What Came Before]

+1 Disenchanted Human... especially, as Wilshire has suggested that discourses on Nonmen as False and Sranc with Souls (though I think that's used as a rhetorical metaphor) kick off the Ishterebinth arc in TUC.

[What Came Before]

wow, that's a stretch.  My seed always refers to one's offspring.  My line would refer to one's family/heritage.

and he says Anasurimbor after he says my seed, so that shoots down your last breath argument.

lol
You've disproved nothing, and it isn't a stretch at all. My seed and my line are about the same. The guy was hallucinating, and bakker likes the whole phallic/semen thing. A very, very minor substitution.

Also, saying it once is easier than twice still, so all arguments stand.

Regardless, what could it possibly matter? Like I already said, it just points to who the Harbinger is. And then? It is pretty clear the end of the world is nigh, so even if it is some other person that isn't Kell or that line it doesn't make much difference.

Of far more importance is the implications of Seswatha's end being the end of the world.

[Kein]

Can someone please explain to me why people argue if Kellhus is true descendant of Anasurimbor if in the first book, the Nonman confirms he is indeed son of Anasurimbor (the very beginning of the book). Achemian doubts it because he does not know, but we do. Nonman can't be mistaken, and Bekker isn't that kind of writer to pull out "piano in bushes" to somehow eliminate the fact he stated before.

[Madness]

Hi Kein,

It saddens me that no one is around/took the time to answer your question...

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, by the way.

Apologies, this might get convoluted.

Firstly, we've had a version of this debate in various places around the forum, most explicitly in Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri.

Secondly, I think we've discussed it so much because we've assumed that the Celmomian Prophecy's fulfillment is important.

The Nonman at the beginning of TDTCB does seem to confirm that Kellhus is related to an Anasurimbor that the Nonman had previously killed. However, who was that nameless face woven into the cloak?

But there are other obligatory questions to ask.

Were the Anasurimbor of the Few before Seswatha? Because if not, then we might assume that all the Dunyain are Seswatha's descendants, not Celmomas'.

What does having Nonmen blood (which all Anasurimbors, apparently, have had since the Nonmen tutelage) mean for the Anasurimbors?

Could Celmomas' bloodline have survived somewhere other than Ishual?

Does this help at all? I'm sure it simply prompts more questions .

[Kein]

However, who was that nameless face woven into the cloak?

You mean - who was that Nonman Kellhus encountered? I don't think it matters,  all nonmans are over 2000 years old, all they carry ancient knowledge of these days. Except these who went insane.

Because if not, then we might assume that all the Dunyain are Seswatha's descendants, not Celmomas'.

This is correct only under circumstances that Seswatha is Anasurimbor, but books never mention anything like that. Otherwise there is only one way: Kelmomas's wife was Anasurimbor as well.  Eowa has their own Targariens?

[Duskweaver]

My current thinking is that the Dunyain are Seswatha's descendants (and that Kellhus knows this thanks to that little chat he had with Akka's inner Seswatha) and that Esmenet (and therefore Mimara) is descended from the true Anasurimbor line. In the PoN books, there are references to Esmenet having quite pale skin, despite being Ketyai, which perhaps suggests she has some Norsirai (and maybe Nonman) blood. We know Mimara reminded Cleric of his wife. And both Esmenet and Mimara are supposedly super-smart for non-Dunyain humans (the given reason for Kellhus choosing Esme to bear his children), also suggesting some influence of Nonman blood. In particular, Mimara has the Nonman talent for making great conceptual leaps in her understanding of the metaphysics of the world.

IMO, any male pronoun used in reference to the Anasurimbor who returns at the End is purely an artefact of the rigidly patriarchal culture of Earwa (both in Seswatha's time and in Kellhus'). I.e. everybody in Earwa who knows of the Celmomian Prophecy would naturally assume it'd be a male descendant. Including Celmomas himself and Seswatha.

[Kein]

But how can be he Seswatcha descendant if he clearly son of Anasurimbor? The Nonman does not just says that he has blood of Anasurimbors', he says that he exactly bears "his face" ie direct descendant on father's line.

[locke]

Achamian's dreams in The White Luck Warrior explicitly state that Seswatha was carrying on an affair with Anasurimbor Celmomas' wife.  Seswatha also seems attached to Nau Cayuti as though he were NC's father.

another possibility is that we do not know Seswatha's heritage (iirc he was an orphan) so he could be the classical fantasy 'hidden heir'.

In support of the hidden heir supposition, Seswatha and Anasurimbor Celmomas are the same age and Celmomas had a twin brother who 'died in infancy.'

[Madness]

However, who was that nameless face woven into the cloak?

You mean - who was that Nonman Kellhus encountered? I don't think it matters,  all nonmans are over 2000 years old, all they carry ancient knowledge of these days. Except these who went insane.

We know this actually - Bakker asked a question years ago on Zombie Three-Seas. I wouldn't want to be the person to spoil it for you and it's ulterior to what I actually meant:

When the Nonman tells Kellhus he recognized him as Anasurimbor, he fumbles with a particular face on his cloak. I was wondering who that Anasurimbor was?

Because if not, then we might assume that all the Dunyain are Seswatha's descendants, not Celmomas'.

This is correct only under circumstances that Seswatha is Anasurimbor, but books never mention anything like that. Otherwise there is only one way: Kelmomas's wife was Anasurimbor as well.  Eowa has their own Targariens?

That's actually a really good point - that could easily be an mid-game bombshell by Bakker. Incestual bloodline.

However, I think we're all missing the point. The Dunyain Anasurimbor are the offspring of Ganrelka's Bastard. The arguments go that Ganrelka is either Celmomas' son, brother, or nephew, based on the fact that Celmomas is 15 years older (I think) than Ganrelka. If he's Celmomas' nephew than I, for one, don't think that counts as fulfilling the Celmomian Prophecy.

[/quote]

My current thinking is that the Dunyain are Seswatha's descendants (and that Kellhus knows this thanks to that little chat he had with Akka's inner Seswatha) and that Esmenet (and therefore Mimara) is descended from the true Anasurimbor line. In the PoN books, there are references to Esmenet having quite pale skin, despite being Ketyai, which perhaps suggests she has some Norsirai (and maybe Nonman) blood. We know Mimara reminded Cleric of his wife. And both Esmenet and Mimara are supposedly super-smart for non-Dunyain humans (the given reason for Kellhus choosing Esme to bear his children), also suggesting some influence of Nonman blood. In particular, Mimara has the Nonman talent for making great conceptual leaps in her understanding of the metaphysics of the world.

IMO, any male pronoun used in reference to the Anasurimbor who returns at the End is purely an artefact of the rigidly patriarchal culture of Earwa (both in Seswatha's time and in Kellhus'). I.e. everybody in Earwa who knows of the Celmomian Prophecy would naturally assume it'd be a male descendant. Including Celmomas himself and Seswatha.

Like the thoughts, Duskweaver. Concise first post .

But how can be he Seswatcha descendant if he clearly son of Anasurimbor? The Nonman does not just says that he has blood of Anasurimbors', he says that he exactly bears "his face" ie direct descendant on father's line.

Achamian's dreams in The White Luck Warrior explicitly state that Seswatha was carrying on an affair with Anasurimbor Celmomas' wife.  Seswatha also seems attached to Nau Cayuti as though he were NC's father.

Making great points, Kein.

We have two divergences, I think. The Dunyain seem in no way progeny of Nau-Cayuti - likely the Dunyain are of the Few because of generational training for cognitive function, in line with what Bakker's said elsewhere.

Which means that Seswatha corrupting the Celmomas bloodline and where that bloodline held out, if it did, still remains a question; Last Scion speculation, etc.