Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children

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Cüréthañ

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« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2013, 01:35:39 am »
If Moe had time to secretly condition Maitha as a half dunyain, so did K. 

Invalid, neh?

Kellhus has spent twenty years managing the Great Chain of Empire in preparation of the (second) Great Ordeal. Moenghus spent thirty years skulking in secret, unencumbered by the necessities of rule. Kellhus has had to work to convince people to "respekt ma authorita" and, as Esmenet notes, that only works in his presence or by invoking his name. Moenghus, even if he was all-powerful among the Cishaurim, appears to have done little that wasn't culturally condoned or socially corroborated.

I don't believe that Kellhus had the same amount of free time to expending in molding his children a la Maithanet.

Well, that's kind of the point.  Moenghus was turning the wheels of TTT, beginning and abandoning plans as they led to dead ends, conditioning ground as far away as Sumna and Ishual without the benefit of authority.  As K notes, Moe's presence of command diminished instantly when people left his presence.  Also, he probably maintained multiple identities, caprtured and tortured skinspies, raised and conditioned a dunyain child in secret etc etc.  Whereas Khellus could call upon the resources of an Empire, had Proyas and Saubon leading his armies, didn't have to hide his shildren, was able to select whichever concubines he deemed most able to breed etc etc. 

If a dunyain child with abilities matching or exceeding those of Maitha was viable and would provide the shortest path, K would have made time to attend to it properly. 
The Rational Priority Principle does not allow for, 'if you have time for it do x or maybe something will work out' style options.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2013, 03:48:11 pm »
I don't see it. Moe wasn't doing that much conditioning, really. He had Maitha do most of his work, and he couldn't do much in Fanim territory anyway. He only had 1 half-son to deal with, and no armies to lead.

Kellhus had to condition the entire world. Moe had only to condition his sons.
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What Came Before

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« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2013, 04:33:07 pm »
I think we're converging on a consensus:

If a dunyain child with abilities matching or exceeding those of Maitha was viable and would provide the shortest path, K would have made time to attend to it properly.

Half-Dunyain are tools towards Kellhus' ends, specifically, rather than training them with the intention that they surpass his skills (though abnormalities clearly occur). His nurturing different skill-sets in his children amounts to his successful walking of the Shortest Path as laid out by the cultivation of his probability trance and facilitating the success of the Thousandfold Thought (whatever that amounts to in the narrative).

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2013, 01:47:04 am »
@ Wilshire;  I feel like this is a difference of perception in the reader.  Moenghus has the larger task and lesser resources.  Kellhus walks into a position where he simply takes control of the entire three seas because circumstances have been conditioned by Moenghus.  (Triamis provides an example of a mere worldborn man gaining an empire nearly as large as the NE, so why sould such an effort leave a dunyain prodigy ragged and leaving imprtant details untended?) 
Maitha's actions are moot (and entirely dictated by Moe anyway) as we are talking about raising and training an effective dunyain child.

@ Madness; my point is that Kellhus would not neglect his breeding opportunities or the chance to properly train half dunyain to the level of Maitha (whose ability exceeds all Kellhus' children but not Kellhus) through a lack of time.

Ultimately, Kellhus' actions are determined by the Logos.  If his children were capable of achieving the balance Maitha embodies (not exceeding Kellhus), the decision on whether to nuture that potential was determined by Kellhus' assement of the shortest path, not gut feelings or a time/efffort budget.  He is not Gandalf, muddling through on intuition, hunches and inspiration. 
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« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2013, 01:19:29 pm »
@ Madness; my point is that Kellhus would not neglect his breeding opportunities or the chance to properly train half dunyain to the level of Maitha (whose ability exceeds all Kellhus' children but not Kellhus) through a lack of time.

Kellhus didn't have any other breeding opportunities. Only Esmenet managed to produce (arguably) viable children for him.

Ultimately, Kellhus' actions are determined by the Logos.  If his children were capable of achieving the balance Maitha embodies (not exceeding Kellhus), the decision on whether to nuture that potential was determined by Kellhus' assement of the shortest path, not gut feelings or a time/efffort budget.  He is not Gandalf, muddling through on intuition, hunches and inspiration. 

I just want to be sure no-one is arguing that the half-Dunyain children might supersede Kellhus through training. They can only be excellent extensions and representions of Kellhus' skill-set.

Also, Maithanet was raised knowing who the Dunyain were...

Kellhus' children are, obviously, misled as to their Father's origins.

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2013, 04:09:27 pm »
Kellhus didn't have any other breeding opportunities. Only Esmenet managed to produce (arguably) viable children for him.

Um, how many women did blind Moenghus/Mallahet the Priest have to choose from?  ...  Kellhus had a much broader range of breeding stock, imperial concubines are mentioned.  Like an empire worth of choices.  He has people who will conduct any secret mission and happily top themselves after doing whatever task he asks of them without question. Seriously ... he managed to find the only other worldborn woman able to bear dunyain children?

Maybe Esme was the only other one who could produce viable children (albiet with less success), but it wasn't for lack of opportunities.
Khellhus may have hidden offspring for all we know, seems more likely than Maitha having other secret siblings superior to Kellhus' gaggle of crazies.
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« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2013, 07:37:27 pm »
I think we're talking past each other a little. I'm agreeing with you, I think.

Kellhus had a much broader range of breeding stock, imperial concubines are mentioned.  Like an empire worth of choices.  He has people who will conduct any secret mission and happily top themselves after doing whatever task he asks of them without question.

We agree here, I think?

Maybe Esme was the only other one who could produce viable children (albiet with less success), but it wasn't for lack of opportunities.

We agree here, I think?

Um, how many women did blind Moenghus/Mallahet the Priest have to choose from?

...

Seriously ... he managed to find the only other worldborn woman able to bear dunyain children?

I'm on a sabbatical from work at the moment and I took a little vacation: a friend of mine who hovers here and I had a conversation, which featured this exactly (aside I recorded it as I'm thinking about breaking into unrelated podcasts but I wanted to test my editing skills).

Moenghus the Elder arguably found at least one woman, if not more than one, with which to breed (arguably) viable offspring (also, we don't know what proscriptions Mallahet "broke" as Cishaurim to do so).

But yet Kellhus who can exploit all the advantages in selection, which you highlight, can only find one other woman to produce a child that is physiologically normal...

So Moenghus and Kellhus, arguably, found the only two women with which to breed with...

I think we're both wrestling with the same incredulousness here.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2013, 09:39:06 pm »
How could there only be 2? I know this isn't the central question being discussed, but for me... Seriously!? How is it possible that an Emperor with an empire full of willing woman, and a blind priest, end up finding the same number of viable mothers?
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locke

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« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2013, 10:59:03 pm »
According to Esmenet, only Esmenet is so special and blessed to be able to carry Kellhus' children to term.

naturally, Kellhus has absolutely no incentive to disabuse her of this notion, nope none whatsoever, nothing to see here, Esmenet is a special snowflake.  The End.


Wilshire

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« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2013, 01:56:04 am »
Yes but why. We are not Serw... I mean Esmi. What is the reason that he could only find 1? Or, why pretend like it?

Either Moe Kell are super lucky, or Kell is a liar... But why lie?
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« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2013, 01:00:25 pm »
How could there only be 2? I know this isn't the central question being discussed, but for me... Seriously!? How is it possible that an Emperor with an empire full of willing woman, and a blind priest, end up finding the same number of viable mothers?

I think you've hit upon a central question, Wilshire: What distinguishes worldborn mothers capable of bearing Dunyain seed?
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Wilshire

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« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2013, 03:00:52 pm »
Maybe there where more Anansorimbor Bastards before the apocalypse. Only the world born women with some dilute amount of that blood could hope to bare a dunyain child. I still think that there is some Nonmen in that line.
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« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2013, 04:39:38 pm »
That, or it raises some really hard questions about Moenghus the Elder's worldborn baby's mama - for Esmenet we've had various speculations about her being Celmomas' true heir, at least.

Again, what make these woman special (sorry, Wilshire, I have no real speculative fodder to add)?
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locke

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« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2013, 07:16:51 pm »
Yes but why. We are not Serw... I mean Esmi. What is the reason that he could only find 1? Or, why pretend like it?

Either Moe Kell are super lucky, or Kell is a liar... But why lie?

Why pretend?  Because any Worldborn is probably going to produce many sports/nonviable offspring with a Dunyain counterpart.  The worldborn partner will naturally be horrified, or emotionally devastated etc by this outcome, if Dunyain lies to worldborn one that there have been some monstrosities but only they have also produced viable live 'human' babies then that's a huge psychological boost that can act to counteract all the emotional trauma from producing the non-viable offspring.

EkyannusIII

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« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2013, 08:38:37 pm »
Regarding Esmi:

Yes but why. We are not Serw... I mean Esmi. What is the reason that he could only find 1? Or, why pretend like it?

The reason is plot convenience.  The idea that some streetwalker from Sumna is the only woman in the Three Seas able to carry Kellhus' ubermensch-seed is preposterous - well born women would almost certainly be much more intelligent than someone from the poorer classes - but Bakker needs a motive to keep Akka at Kellhus' throat, so cuckoldry is the subplot he employs.  It would have been better to leave her with Akka and have her place taken by an Anna Comnena like character, the niece of Xerius and last of the Ikurei, who chronicled the Holy War like the real Anna wrote the Alexiad.  This would give Bakker a new fictional author to provide epigraphs from, another way to have Kellhus grab power (marrying into the last of the old dynasty) and it could be another Dune reference (to Irulan).  But no, we have to have the cuck subplot.
What is reason, but the blindness of the soul?

R. SCOTT RAP3ZT TERRIBLEZ LOLZ.

if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

the whole thing is orchestrated by Kellhus who is wearing a Bashrag as if it were a suit