Esmenet & Aurang

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« on: June 01, 2013, 06:42:54 pm »
Quote from: Madness
This was a thread of discussion that emerged from The Synthese/V. Bird[/u] thread.

Esmenet has two encounters with Aurang, one in TDTCB and another in TTT. In TTT, it precedes Esmenet's possession, following which she retains some of Aurang's memories.

Has this had a lingering effect on Esmenet or her womb? Did it change Kayutas, whom Esmenet might well have been pregnant with at the time of her possession?

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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2013, 06:43:02 pm »
Quote from: Truth Shines
Quote from: Madness
This was a thread of discussion that emerged from The Synthese/V. Bird[/u] thread.

Esmenet has two encounters with Aurang, one in TDTCB and another in TTT. In TTT, it precedes Esmenet's possession, following which she retains some of Aurang's memories.

Has this had a lingering effect on Esmenet or her womb? Did it change Kayutas, whom Esmenet might well have been pregnant with at the time of her possession?

Doubt it.  Possession is similar to cant of compulsion where one soul takes over another.  Cayutas has his own soul so he shouldn't be affected.  Also, I don't think she has any of Aurang's memory. She just remembers what she has done while Aurang has possessed her.

Now that you brought it up, I do wonder about the first encounter -- just where did Aurang got that human male body?  Did he just possess some random guy on the street?  It can't be the body of a skin-spy since those things don't have souls to possess.

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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2013, 06:43:11 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
I doubt the little man-headed birds have souls either, but Aurang seems to ride those synthese quite well and is able to use sorcery from within them.

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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2013, 06:43:18 pm »
Quote from: Truth Shines
Synthese -- Artifacts of the Inchoroi Tekne, thought to be living "shells" specifically designed to house the souls of the senior Consult figures.

Some sort of soul transfer/splitting technology.

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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2013, 06:43:26 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Well enough.  The little bird critters may not be the only synthese they use I suppose - the black semen makes me think it wasn't just a random possessed guy. 
In fact, I tend to think that something was done to Esme that night to allow the latter possession.  Aurang knew she would go to Akka afterward - they even had Sarcellus following her to make sure she got there okay.  Probably has the tekne equivilent of a wire and GPS in her bits.

It's interesting to note that the no-god can extend his will through the weapon races though.  Don't know if that will include the skin spies when He rises again.

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« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2013, 06:43:33 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Kellhus seems to think the Synthese takes Maengecca and a bit of sorcery to keep Aurang in it's form.

Aurang's romp with Esmenet is an oft debated subject - I lean towards Glamour personally, a third type of sorcery after Cants and Wards.

I always wondered what other type of straight teknology the Inchoroi might have besides las guns, Curethan, I mean, the Heron Spear...

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« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2013, 06:43:42 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Yeh, he's definately using the passion touch thing there - same as Aurax does in the WP epilogue.  That could be sorcery or some tekne pheromone type power.

The ability to remotely possess people like Aurang does to Esme in TTT would be invaluable from an espionage perspective.  Not to mention assasinations would be a piece of cake around anyone with lesser skills than Kellhus.  First apocolypse could have been a lot shorter; just possess Nau-Cayuti and have him nobble his dad - Norasai taken care of, etc.

I've fairly convinced myself that Esme was compromised with facilitating tekne bio-mods via that black seed. ;)

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« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2013, 06:43:49 pm »
Quote from: Madness
@ TS, I'm working off this mainly:

"Esmenet dreamed that she was a prince, an angel fallen from the dark, that her heart had beaten, her loins had ached, for tens of thousands of years. She dreamed that Kellhus stood before her, an outrage to be blotted, an enigma to be dissected and above all a burning question ...

Who are the Dunyain?

...

The night in the Nansur villa - the night of her possession - had stained this listless dread with a bewildering urgency. Every time she blinked, she saw things penetrated and penetrating. She could still feel the creatures hands upon her flesh, and the memory of her obedient lust seemed ever-present. The hunger she had suffered that night! A thirst that only terror could touch, and that no horror could slake. At once bestial and remote, it had been a wantonness that eclipsed obscenity... and become something pure.

The Inchoroi had taken her, but the want, the insatiable desire... those had been hers" (TTT, p355).

Obviously, Esmenet internalizes her compulsion as aspects of her self. But realistically, these reflections are likely Aurang's...

What does that make Kayutas, Curethan? It'd be crazy if one of the kids had... say, inherited really far-flung memories of the Inchoroi, like of their homeworld.

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« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2013, 06:43:59 pm »
Quote from: Eramun
Just a side thought: does Kellhus know of Esmi's encounter w/ the "man with black seed"? If so, did this have any bearing upon his choosing of her?

I was reading through the posts and the thought kind of popped up, thought I'd share, maybe its already been speculated?

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« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2013, 06:44:09 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Not according to his POV reflections, Eramun:

"He looked through her, past her bewildered hurt, down to the beatings and the abuse, to the betrayals, and beyond, out to a world of rank lust, shaped by the hammers of custom, girded with scripture, scaled by ancient legacies of sentiment and belief. Her womb had cursed her, even as it made her what she was. Immortality and bliss - this was the living promise all women bore between their thighs. Strong sons and gasping climax. If what men called truth were ever the hostage of their desires, how could they fail to make slaves of their women? To hide them like hoarded gold. To feast on them like melons. To discard them like rinds.

Was this not why he used her? The promise of sons in her hips?

Dunyain sons" (TTT, p319).

However, I assume that Kellhus knows everything about the characters who frequent his presence...

Glad you decided to join in, Eramun. I'm sure its been thrown around in the past but we're all spontaneously imagining the same theories continuously anyhow. It's enough that we're communicating :).

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« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2013, 06:44:17 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Madness
Obviously, Esmenet internalizes her compulsion as aspects of her self. But realistically, these reflections are likely Aurang's...
:shock:  nice catch!
Quote
What does that make Kayutas, Curethan? It'd be crazy if one of the kids had... say, inherited really far-flung memories of the Inchoroi, like of their homeworld.
That would fly with Dune parallels.

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« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2013, 06:44:25 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Like the compulsions have always been described, what makes them so terrible is there is no distinction between self and other. They subject feels everything they are told to feel as if it was derived from their own mind.

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« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2013, 06:44:32 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Compulsion's real creepy.

Fuck, I really want Serwa's perspective. And Kayutas'.

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« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2013, 06:44:40 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
I think speculating that the black seed contained some type of tekne "tracker" is about as far as I would go. 
Geneticly modeling her ovaries so that the future children of a whore that habitually uses contraception in the hope that she would become Kellhus' choice to bear children seems a little far fetched. 

I try and speculate along the lines that Bakker builds off the internal consistencies of his world and plot building for things like that. 
When he inserts parralels and tributes it's generally fairly front and centre stuff, I think.

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« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2013, 06:44:48 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Well, the iconic events of Dune to me are the character developments and interactions. There is nothing more overt that Bakker could take from Herbert, in my opinion:

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