What is the Thousandfold Thought

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« on: June 01, 2013, 11:09:40 pm »
Quote from: sciborg2
Wanted to place this here, so that we can comfortably discuss spoilers for all the text.

I know it's a "transition rule", and at the end of TTT I thought it was a new religion. But it's more, it seems.

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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2013, 11:09:49 pm »
Quote from: Jorge
You how how Kellhus can grasp the circumstance and condition of all those whom he meets? I think TTT is him grasping the movements of history at large, so that he can literally see the future and direct its course (as well as directly see the hands of all the major players... namely The Gods and The Consult).

Alternatively, he went crazy after being crucified, and it is the name he gave some kind of internal logic error that directs him.

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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2013, 11:10:03 pm »
Quote from: Twooars
"Alternatively, he went crazy after being crucified, and it is the name he gave some kind of internal logic error that directs him." - but Moenghus refers to it by the same name. But there is a possibility that the father and son refer to different things by the same name and Kellhus just assumed what Moenghus meant, after hearing the term from that blind beggar Cishuarim in TWP. Unlikely, though. They seem to be talking about the same thing at the end of TTT.

But yeah, I see it as essentially seeing through all the possibilities and 'predicting' the future, akin to Loeto's Golden Path in Dune. I am not sure if Kellhus really could know about the Gods in PoN (I assume he 'grasped' it right after his circumfixion in TWP?), given the short time and the information he had access to (unless he had obtained some info about the Gods from torturing the skin spies, and he was just playing ignorant during his confrontation with Moenghus. Besides, that part was from his own POV, and we see enough doubt in him about cause and effect to rule out the possibility of him knowing about the Gods, I think. ) If you mean that the thousandfold thought is an evolving concept as suggested at the end of TTT, I agree that he can see the major players too in TJE and WLW, as he had 20 years to learn about them.

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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2013, 11:10:11 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
I've always believed it to be a memetic idea/goal that has gained enough structure, momentum and purchase in Earwa and the outside (that is, within the souls of men) to become a mini-god.  But that's just me.

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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2013, 11:10:19 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
I've always taken TTT = Leto II's Golden Path.

it could always be 'the soul of the world' which is beyond the gods and beyond fate.

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« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2013, 11:10:28 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I'm a third for TTT = Leto II's Golden Path.

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« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2013, 11:10:37 pm »
Quote from: sciborg2
Doesn't Lil' Kel also grasp the Thousandfold Thought, down to the term itself? Or did he hear the term, and upon grasping the TTT understand that was what the people around him were talking about?

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« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2013, 11:10:44 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Inrilatas mentions it during his interrogation of Maithanet and the Shriah is surprised by Inrilatas' knowledge.

p. 408, WLW - "You think Mother has blunted Father's pursuit of the Shortest Path time and again (true as Maithanet later reveals to Esmenet), that he walks in arcs to appease her heart, when he should cleave to the ruthless lines of the Thousandfold Thought." ... "Who has told you these things?" His uncle demanded ... "Was it her? Did she tell you about the Thousandfold Thought?"

Kelmomas who is our perspective here, shows no reaction at all to the mention of TTT or the Shortest Path and instead only seeks to remain masked and learn the nature of Inrilatas' plan.

I advocate understanding the Thousand Thought as being described by things like Game Theory, Laplace's Demon, Leto's Golden Path - the Thought in the Dune universe, the only path to the true survival of humankind, or Hari Seldon's Seldon Plan. It's manifested by human embodiment like religious, secular, or cultural ritual.

Tidbit from p. 412, WLW - "Inrilates nodded as if ruing some tragic fact. 'As mad as all of us are, as much heartbreak we have heaped upon our mother, he is, I think, the worst of us."

I think, basically, any Dunyain who understand the foundational variables of the World (Sorcery, Faith, Tekne, and War, it seems) exploring the Probability Trance will eventually surmise the Thousandfold Thought. It's just the Dunyain either forgot or denied their acolytes most of the true variables of Earwan Reality.

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« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2013, 11:10:54 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
I think its more like the Dunyain sought to control the variables that could be brought to heel with the hope that eventually more variables could be brought under control once they had mastered the first.  Sorcery et al were confounding factors if they're invoked.  by ignoring it they weren't eliminating their influence by they were limiting its influence.

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I said TTT could be the soul of the world because of this:

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The world has its own ways, sockets so deep that not even the Gods can dislodge them.  No urn is so cracked as Fate.
   â€”ASANSIUS, THE LIMPING PILGRIM

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« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2013, 11:11:04 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Except Sorcery, like Faith and the Tekne, intrinsically interacts with the World and the Outside in some fundamental way.

Edit:

Dunyain - The soul, in the Dunyain world view, is part of the world, and therefore as much driven by prior events as anything else ... All souls, they claim, possess conatus, the natural striving to be self-moving, to escape the circle of before and after ... a host of factors make outright escape impossible .. The whole point of the Dunyain ethos is to overcome these limitations and so become a self-moving soul - to attain what they call the Absolute, or the Unconditioned Soul.

Bakker also wrote a blurb on the Three Seas about the Dunyain believing the Logos was the only actual escape.

We know, at least, that at least the first premise I quoted from the Dunyain excerpt is simply untrue. "This world is open, and our souls stand astride its bounds." (p.367, TTT LE)

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« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2013, 11:11:14 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
Personally, though I'm not at all confident of any theories regarding this series:

It's either a memetic placebo conjured from thin air by Moenghus or truly some secret plan Moenghus had that Kellhus has fooled himself into thinking he understands.

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« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2013, 11:11:22 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
No one else thinks the fact that Moe and Kellhus both refer to it as a living thing is literal?

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« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2013, 11:11:29 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
Moenghus was really vague all through that conversation with Kellhus. I'm pretty sure most of that conversation was just Moe and Kellhus trying to cold read each other. Kellhus himself didn't really get the information he wanted. Had to leave when Cnaiur showed up.

That's the problem with Dunyain. How can they talk with one another when they never mean anything?

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« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2013, 11:11:37 pm »
Quote from: KRST IS
Let me quickly compare the Dunyain philosophy with my own real life philosophy.

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Dunyain - The soul, in the Dunyain world view, is part of the world, and therefore as much driven by prior events as anything else ... All souls, they claim, possess conatus, the natural striving to be self-moving, to escape the circle of before and after ... a host of factors make outright escape impossible .. The whole point of the Dunyain ethos is to overcome these limitations and so become a self-moving soul - to attain what they call the Absolute, or the Unconditioned Soul.

I am of the opinion, per my real life shamanic/philosophic studies, that the Dunyain here are correct to a degree. That is, the soul IS part of this world, AND is driven by cause and effect. In real life Gnostic/Buddhist/Taoist (ad nauseum) terms, the soul is shaped, developed by karma (cause and effect).

But in real Gnostic terms, after a person physically dies, that person's Consciousness/Spirit is "judged" in the Underworld. This might parallel Bakker's Earwic "Outside," but let me make one thing clear: being "judged" is NOT similar to the mainline Abrahamic religions such as Christianity, Judaism and Islam. And, in my rendition of Earwa, I would not reckon the Inrithi (Christian), Fanic (Islam), or even Yatwerian (Literalist pagan) faiths to interpret "judgment" any differently. All are corruptions of a previous "golden age" - in our world and in Earwa. Corruption of natural law. Natural law, which in my mind, reflected earlier primitive, tribal shamanic philosophies. So, judgment, then, is earlier times was just an "acknowledgment" by the spirit in Oblivion that the soul was either 1) insufficiently developed in earthly life, and therefore must reincarnate into another body to "unlearn" or "uncondition" karmic suffering.  This suffering in our life is mainly produced by egoic processes of the intellect via filtered desires. So, you must eliminate these desires to end your "cognitive dissonance"  - otherwise termed spiritual ignorance or unconsciousness (blinded by beliefs which spring from filtered desires). Moreover, 2) if one has done a sufficient job eliminating desire in his/her life, that person will be granted an indefinite "vacation" in the Outside. To experience bliss in the heavenly realms. 3) If that person has been so wicked (caused others to suffer so much in the previous incarnation) that person will be sent by the rulers of the Underworld to the lower elemental realms to be purified and start over. That's what it means to be judged - but there is no literal "Hell" for sinners after death. Hell is a state of mind, the Intellect. When we speak of Hades, Persephone - these beings are more metaphorical. And, in my opinion, Bakker's beings in the supposed Outside are mostly metaphorical as well. The thing to keep in mind is that no one judges you except you yourself. Your Spirit, higher Self "judges" the karma, the cause and effect of your soul and determines the right recourse.

So, has Kellhus been to the Outside? Well, yes, but possibly not in a literal sense. See, Literalism is also rampant in our mainstream religions of today. What these doctrines and dogmas do is profane the true Gnosis. If he did contact his spirit in the Outside, especially in tandem with this thousandfold thought, it would have to come, most likely, from a shamanic source - namely a magical sacrament. A natural drug - like, or unlike Qirri? It makes me wonder how many of these psychoactive plants and elementals from natural law Bakker is going to reveal. Qirri seems a lot like opium, which has been known to produce visions, that is, mixed in with the right shamanic dose of other sacraments.

But it is interesting - the Qirri. In our world, these sorts of substances were the source of shamanic power. Visions into the netherworld. They provided glimpses a dimensions which, when you came out of the high, totally re-wired your brain.

The Dunyain process, down in the Thousand Thousand Halls, reminded me a lot of the real shamanic Cult of the Dead, in which shamans were able to ingest psychoactive plants (magic mushrooms etc.) with the rotting fluids of corpses. Added in usually with honey to preserve it in jars and other containers.

However, we are still not given much information of what Kellhus was actually exposed to down there. I think it's key. I'm not sure it's just a corrupted version of brain rewiring through machine technology, or real shamanic techniques.

However - just a thought: much is revealed potentially in my mind with the knowledge that real world shamans - dark shamans they call themselves (not to judge them as evil), are necromancers who use corpses of "holy men" or royalty to ingest hallucinogens to communicate with the dead. What it does is trap their soul on earth (which is why you have "ghosts" - really just trapped personality residues) with their Spirit in Oblivion. It preserves that elemental to work through nature - this is how living humans work necromantic spells to manipulate natural law - because the soul summons the power from it's counterpart Spirit in Oblivion. Is their some dead "holy man" (Nau Cayuti, Moenghus, Titirga, could be anyone's guess) down in the Thousand Thousand Halls that the Dunyain monks have gotten their hands on? Is that how the mysterious "Voice" or "vision" (supposedly from his father) manifest? Now the Dunyain's aspect of terror might trouble you even more. ;)

But, getting down to the gist of the Dunyain error. It is simply that they intend to train their Intellect to attain the Absolute, the Spirit realm. The problem with the Intellect is that it rests on certainty principles which do not have access to the Outside. Why? Because it just emanates FROM the Spirit/Consciousness itself. Whatever THAT is. ;) It's just a product of the Spirit. It can only go so far, in terms of fight/flight mechanisms. This is what exemplifies Kellhus's destructive nature, especially in a physical sense with Enshoiya, his blade. All it does, like the Intellect, is fight and divide. In other words, in filters other's desires; however, this process of eliminating another's desires, is a big fat desire itself. Kellhus decides to attain bliss and get out of the wheel of samsara. the Wheel by GOING THROUGH Hell, but by going through Hell - since you must eventually judge yourself - him included after he dies physically - he will only suffer a buttload of karmic suffering from his own Spirit.

Kellhus still seems to operate exclusively via Intellect. Now, he interprets the "thousandfold thought" based on it. Passed down from his father, Moenghus, I think he interpreted it in error. My opinion is that Moenghus succeeded in preserving it's true power in their confrontation. The Thousandfold Thought is beyond Intellect.

Now, the key thing to take away from this (for the mainstream religious people of Earwa too!) is that as long as you take everything literal, including the "gods" you will be in the cycle of everlasting controlled opposition via beliefs of the ego. Once you see spiritual things as archetypes for serenity of the Spirit on the one hand, and the illusory power of desire on the other, you will start to come out of ignorance. Meditation, like Kellhus' practice at Ishual, is one extraordinary tool to achieve awareness; just to train in always being cognizant of your karma, cause and effect. It's to work on your Concentration. However, Intellect is only one part of it. ;)

All the contending egos are in a sense, all the elemental base desires that control people. These are the splintered gods, in a metaphorical sense; and, if you go into a hallucinogenic journey, your Spirit will briefly be aware, cognizant of perceiving itself. Not being filtered by the intellectual desires. Just like a dream when you - like most people - unawares, enter the 5th dimension. But being aware, even in your dreams is being able to be lucid. You can train in lucid living, too.

The Thousandfold Thought is very much key. Because it gets back to what causes your thoughts to arise from the darkness. The darkness, the void, is Spirit, and Intellect cannot control it by desires and beliefs, just as your physical body cannot control the oceans waves to stop flowing.

Just my two cents. Take it with a grain of salt. :)