Why haven't more Few gone to the Consult?

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« on: June 01, 2013, 11:27:31 pm »
Quote from: sciborg2
If sorcerers are damned, why did any of them war against the Consult the first time? Why don't the Mandati, upon touching the heart, seek out the Consult instead of fighting it?

I'm still having trouble with this idea that people know they are damned but are just totally chill about it.

Why does anyone join the Few at all?

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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2013, 11:27:39 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Well, sciborg, you seem a pretty humble person. I compare the decision to "become" one of the Few to those boys who exercise their powers in Chronicle. It's not one.

Limitless power at the whim of abstraction?

Also:

Quote from: sciborg2
why did any of them war against the Consult the first time? Why don't the Mandati, upon touching the heart, seek out the Consult instead of fighting it?

I don't think that Seswatha, the Mandate, or any living sorcerer at all, knows of the Inverse Fire. Plus the Gnostic Schools of the Ancient North repudiated the Mangaecca. Fighting them during the First Apocalypse was just finishing the job, in my opinion.

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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2013, 11:27:46 pm »
Quote from: sciborg2
Chronicle?

There just seems to be casually air to damnation among the Schools. I understand not all of them really think themselves damned, but it seems a good number of them do.

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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2013, 11:27:52 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Because they all are made of the same morally charged soul-stuff as regular people.  Meaning they still empathize and care about things beyond their own future.

The inverse fire will burn that out, but otherwise you need to be born with a 'deficiency' ala Conphas or be bat-shit insane like Cnaiur in order to escape the moral repugnance of what the consult are trying to achieve.

They are seeking escape from judgement - not some correction of the cosmic morality.

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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2013, 11:27:59 pm »
Quote from: Jorge
Before Kellhus, many among the schools were highly secular. That is, there was little belief in damnation, or they had the capacity to rationalize it away. Plus, the Consult is hidden and most don't believe in it (there's probably also like a 99% chance they rape and kill you on the spot, just because they were feeling frisky).

After Kellhus, damnation of those stained with the Mark is revoked by the Aspect-Emperor. Now, Mimara reveals to us that this is fact not the case...

Lastly, they (and much less we) don't know how real damnation is until they die. Nothing revealed by Seswatha's heart shows damnation. All they see is how screwed up shit got when the No-God came back. Some probably hold to the hope that death is just death, others may hope that ancestor-spirits or some God or another will save them from Ciphrang. Others may think it will not be that bad.

As readers, all we know about damnation is the following:
1. Sorcery and sin leave a stain (the stain is not always the same).
2. The Outside is real, and souls do stand to be judged.

That's it. Poor Shaeonanra thinks its pretty much THE WORST THING EVER, but I don't trust any 'revelation' given by the Inchoroi.

Even if we assume it's a Biblical analogue, there's probably as much debate in their world as there is in ours about the nature of hell.

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« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2013, 11:28:07 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Jorge
they had the capacity to rationalize it away.

This, methinks.

We also don't know the nature of Achamian's damnation, Jorge, which is paramount to this "Sorcerers are damned/undamned."

Also, as much as I was mistaken to the nature of the interview, I really believe that the Inchoroi also added the Sorcerers are damned and Nonmen are false. The Inchoroi added the Nonmen to the Tusk for the same reasons they'd add sorcery. It's something novel and they feared it.

But Bakker has only admitted the Nonmen. It might explain why Titirga can have an Inward Mark.

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« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2013, 11:28:14 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Also, sciborg, Chronicle is a movie.

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« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2013, 11:28:22 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
The one thing I'd tend to trust from the Inchoroi are their views on damnation; if only because it's the only explanation for their actions so far. They behave consistently with said explanation, so I think they at least truly believe they are damned.

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« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2013, 11:28:32 pm »
Quote from: Swense
Seswatha's heart also gives you moral certainty to a degree similar to the inverse fire. You're not just watching atrocities, you're feeling them. I imagine it would be difficult to feel anything but loathing for the Consult with a little Seswatha in your head reminding you of the horrors he's seen.

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« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2013, 11:28:39 pm »
Quote from: Tony P
Quote from: Jorge
Lastly, they (and much less we) don't know how real damnation is until they die. Nothing revealed by Seswatha's heart shows damnation. All they see is how screwed up shit got when the No-God came back.

To see how screwed up shit became with the arrival of the No-God might just be good enough to never want to have anything to do with them at, all no matter how real damnation might be.

Then again, since Mandati forfit their souls to gain the world, they all know that they're damned one way or another. That's a core part of their order.

Quote from: Jorge
That's it. Poor Shaeonanra thinks its pretty much THE WORST THING EVER, but I don't trust any 'revelation' given by the Inchoroi.

Shaeonanra already knows all about damnation, etc. doesn't he? He's able to rationalize it all away. It's just that the Inverse Fire apparently tells him it's real. And rather unpleasant.

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« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2013, 11:28:48 pm »
Quote from: Madness
@ Tony and Sharmat

The Inverse Fire only convinces them, allegedly, that they are damned. Not what they are damned for.

Also, we now know of two things in the World that contend to judge absolutely. The Judging Eye and the Inverse Fire. Neither of which has actually shown us that sorcery is a cause for damnation.

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« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2013, 11:28:55 pm »
Quote from: Wayward Ishroi
What happens when Mimara brings her Tear of God and gazes upon the Inverse Fire with her Judging Eye...

I think that's some important shit.

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« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2013, 11:29:02 pm »
Quote from: Ace
Quote from: Tony P

Then again, since Mandati forfit their souls to gain the world, they all know that they're damned one way or another. That's a core part of their order.

I totally agree with that. Also I think you must be a special kind of evil to be willing to kill thousands if not millions of people just to save your own soul.

And most of the sorcerers probably don't know about the save-your-soul-by-sealing-off-hell thing.

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« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2013, 11:29:08 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Can't resist adding how stupidly pointless damnation is - unless the soul is coming back, what is the point of torturing it? Nothing! Nothing at all! It's pure, horrific aesthetic!

I'm not knocking the setting in saying that - it's a reflection of the god thingies the setting has, and just how bloody minded they are.

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« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2013, 11:29:15 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: Ace
I totally agree with that. Also I think you must be a special kind of evil to be willing to kill thousands if not millions of people just to save your own soul.
Evil for wanting to avoid hideous torture for a thousand years? Really? Wait, not a thousand years, no. Forever!

Animals backed into a corner, snarling? I agree. Evil for wanting to avoid a massive evil? Not so sure.

Not to mention what is it when people don't die, but go on as some sort of spirity things. How much is that killing? Is it just being really nasty instead, kind of like grevous assault and then forced exile upon a person?