The Consult's Plans [TUC Spoilers}

  • 9 Replies
  • 896 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

The P

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 31
    • View Profile
« on: January 30, 2020, 03:33:54 pm »
In WP chapter 21, the synthese is flying over the sack of Caraskand.  "And though Golgotterath had long scoffed at the Mandate and their prattle regarding the Celmomian Prophesy, how could they afford to take chances?  They were so near! So close! Soon the Children would gather, and they would rain ruin upon this despicable world! The End of Ends was coming..."

This does not sound like a plan to resurrect the No-God, knowing how the No-God is eventually resurrected.  And considering that they used an Anasurimbor the first time, shouldn't the Consult be pretty clear on what Kellhus showing up means?

Reading it this time around, this part almost sounds like the Inchoroi gave up on the No-God to seal the world plan, and have called on Inchoroi from the depths of space to come and blast the world away.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5838
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2020, 04:26:45 pm »
Quote
"And though Golgotterath had long scoffed at the Mandate and their prattle regarding the Celmomian Prophesy, how could they afford to take chances?  They were so near! So close! Soon the Children would gather, and they would rain ruin upon this despicable world! The End of Ends was coming..."
WP chapter 21, the synthese is flying over the sack of Caraskand. 

This does not sound like a plan to resurrect the No-God, knowing how the No-God is eventually resurrected.
...
Reading it this time around, this part almost sounds like the Inchoroi gave up on the No-God to seal the world plan, and have called on Inchoroi from the depths of space to come and blast the world away.
"The Children" is a really strange turn of phrase. I'm not sure we see that again from a Consult POV, and unfortunately it could mean a great many things. It could be self referential, as the Inchoroi are the children of the progenitors, or it could be the weapons races which they may actually refer to as 'their children' from time to time.

I'm leaning toward the latter... But it still is strange. It does make it sound like they planning an attack of some kind without the No God, given the phrasing.

Also note that at this time the Ishual should still be undiscovered. I think the raid on Ishual and the subsequen capture of the Dunyain had to be sometime after WP (given the WP epilogue) but probably before TJE.

And considering that they used an Anasurimbor the first time, shouldn't the Consult be pretty clear on what Kellhus showing up means?
The Inchoroi don't actually know why the No-God woke up. So actually they don't necessarily care about the Anasurimbor. As a reminder, the prophesy itself only says that "an anasurimbor will return at the end of the world" not that the Anasurimbor themselves do anything in particular. They just show up.

As a partial aside, I think the flippancy this regards the Celmomian Prophesy is interesting. Later on in TJE or WLW there is another line from a synthese "we must uphold all prophesies, even those that are false", which seems to revere whatever unnamed prophesy that refers to. Could be the tonal change is a sly indication that the Dunyain have taken over the Consult and have changed certain priorities.

And lastly, welcome to the forum.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 04:59:39 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2806
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2020, 04:38:12 pm »
This is an interesting notion.  First, I think we can pretty easily say that "we don't know for sure" what the Consult plan was pre-Kellhus.

As for circumstantial "evidence," I think first we ahve a notion that "Children" might be the skin-spies.  From TTT, chapter 9:
Quote
They called themselves the Last Children of the Inchoroi, though they were loath to speak of their “Old Fathers.” They claimed to be Keepers of the Inverse Fire, though the merest question regarding either their “keeping” or their “fire” pitched them into confusion. They never complained, save to say they hungered for unspeakable congress, or to insist they were falling—always falling. They declared he could trust them, because their Old Father had made them his slaves. They were, they said, dogs that would sooner starve than snap meat from a stranger’s hand.

This might explain just why so many of them are in the Ark (and the Golden Room) in TUC.

But that doesn't really answer our question though.  It could be that, since they had failed and failed again with actually rebooting the No-God, they were actively trying a "new" plan.

TTT, Chapter 11:
Quote
He called to them in the sacred pitch only they and rats could hear. They came leaping through dark and abandoned halls, faithful, faithless things. They grovelled before him, their groins slick from their victims. His eyes flared and they clutched themselves in anguish and ecstasy. His children. His flowers.
For decades, the Consult had assumed that the alien metaphysics of the Cishaurim had been responsible for uncovering their children in Shimeh. This had made the prospect of the Empire’s fall to the Fanim intolerable. Half the Three Seas immune to their poison? The Holy War had seemed a rare opportunity.
But the plate had changed all too quickly. To realize that the Cishaurim were but a mask for a far more ancient foe. To come so very close, only to discover their sublime deceptions subverted by something deeper. Something new.

So I think Aurang just calls all the Tekne races his children.  So I'd likely consider the idea that they had summoned any additional Inchoroi as improbable.

My guess would be that they wanted the Holy War to reduce the fighting ability of the Three Seas.  Then, they could mobilize the force which eventually gets used against Ishual, to attack the Three Seas.  I don't think "rain ruin" is meant literally.  But, those Nonmen sorcerers do tend to do that literally too.

What seems to happen though is that the notion of Dûnyain though throws them off.  Essentially, Kellhus (and Moe) have done in thirty years why the Consult has tried to do from the shadows for milenia.  So, of course, they see them as an existential threat.  And, likely, rightly so.

Aurang goes on though:
Quote
Their devious methods and disconcerting abilities aside, these Dûnyain were Anasûrimbor. Even without the Mandate prophecies, enmity was a fact of their accursed blood.

So, even if there was no prophecy, they'd still want them dead on the merit of their name.  But, considering what they were able to do and how, now they want to know more.  Honestly, it's rather sensible, I think.

Further thought is likely needed though, but interesting point to be brought up, great first post.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 401
    • View Profile
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2020, 05:27:01 pm »
It's never really been clear to me whether NC as the Subject was a happy accident or a deliberate choice. Regardless of which, however, that the Consult were pretty much SOL after all the Anasurimbor were (presumably) wiped out during TFA.

I'd love to know what in the heck they were doing for the ~2000 years between Mengedda and the discovery of the Dunyain and a living Anasurimbor. Aside from sowing discord throughout TSS, of course.

It's a shame that we never got to hear from Shae in the present timeline...


TaoHorror

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 1106
  • Blueberry Psûkhe Sorcerer
    • View Profile
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2020, 08:31:29 pm »
It's a shame that we never got to hear from Shae in the present timeline...

Sorcery appears to be the top of the stack of power in Earwa. It almost wiped out all of the Inchoroi and the Dunyain, few stragglers behind. More powerful than technology and intellect. So I'm not sure I'm all in that the Duyain took over The Consult. Me thinks Shae has a role yet to play and could be possessing/controlling the few Duyain prisoners. When I was reading it, at first I thought the Dunsult were skinspies and not really Dunyain proper. But reading on I accepted they were actually Dunyain, but still don't trust anything they said to Kellhus. Using truth as a weapon is what they do and we've seen them talk their way out of imprisonment before, but if Shae can trick/kill Titirga, maybe the most powerful human sorcerer to have lived, then I'm not so sure he would allow some Duyain prisoners to dupe him. I could be over thinking all this, but who knows how powerful Shae got over 2,000 years.

To the OP - I've picked up on some inconsistencies with The Consult meanderings, I striked it up to simple plot error. If there is a unifying explanation, appears we don't have enough to know what it is. If I recall, I think I thought the "Children" reference was to sranc - "raining" denotes numbers to me and the sranc are the only super numerous rain-like aspect to The Consult/Inchoroi.
May your death be soon, slow and painful

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2806
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2020, 10:15:43 pm »
Sorcery appears to be the top of the stack of power in Earwa. It almost wiped out all of the Inchoroi and the Dunyain, few stragglers behind. More powerful than technology and intellect. So I'm not sure I'm all in that the Duyain took over The Consult. Me thinks Shae has a role yet to play and could be possessing/controlling the few Duyain prisoners. When I was reading it, at first I thought the Dunsult were skinspies and not really Dunyain proper. But reading on I accepted they were actually Dunyain, but still don't trust anything they said to Kellhus. Using truth as a weapon is what they do and we've seen them talk their way out of imprisonment before, but if Shae can trick/kill Titirga, maybe the most powerful human sorcerer to have lived, then I'm not so sure he would allow some Duyain prisoners to dupe him. I could be over thinking all this, but who knows how powerful Shae got over 2,000 years.

Well, honestly, considering Shae's character in TFS, frankly, I don't think he'd actually be a match for Dunyain mind-games.  That being said, it does seem slightly unlikely that he would be "undone" so easily.  However, I thought as much for Moe the Elder, and well, it turns out he did, pretty much, done gone and messed up.  On that same note, I reread part of the confrontation between the Mutilated and Kellhus and interestingly enough, it is explicitly noted that when the hologram Shae disappears, there are 6 sets of stairs but only 5 Mutilated.  Could be something, could be nothing.

As for their conversation, I tend to view things as when two Dunyain talk to each other, since they are adept at spotting lies, there is no sense in lying, since the other would know.  Rather, I think everything they say is truthful, or at the very least, is not a lie.  That doesn't mean it's the whole story, but I think what they say is mostly factual.

To the OP - I've picked up on some inconsistencies with The Consult meanderings, I striked it up to simple plot error. If there is a unifying explanation, appears we don't have enough to know what it is. If I recall, I think I thought the "Children" reference was to sranc - "raining" denotes numbers to me and the sranc are the only super numerous rain-like aspect to The Consult/Inchoroi.

Part of it also is that the Consult had been planning machinations on the scale of hundreds of years.  All of a sudden, they have to adapt to (relatively) quick changing circumstance with high stakes.  Some of the plans don't seem to jive and that makes sense, since they'd likely be scrambling in light of changing circumstances.

That also neatly covers for writer error as well.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

The P

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 31
    • View Profile
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2020, 05:10:07 am »
Wouldn't they have a general understanding of how the No-God awoke the first time around?  My understanding was they were placing souls in the sarcophagus and eventually one did something.  They might not have realized the key was Nau-Cayuti in particular, but I would assume if they wanted to initiate resumption, they would be constantly trying new souls hoping they'd get another to work.

Post Mengedda, it appears the Consult has just been playing a waiting game.  Maybe they had too many things going when the No-God arose the first time to recognize the cause?

SmilerLoki

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 581
    • View Profile
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2020, 07:16:50 am »
The Consult before the Dunyain taking over likely had no means to gather enough material for the No-God. The logistics doesn't work, all of the populous nations are too far away from Golgoterrath, which wasn't the case during the first Apocalypse, when the North was still settled. Now, the moment the Three Seas are conquered by the newly assembled Horde, it might be feasible to feed the Sarcophagus in a concise manner again.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 08:03:45 am by SmilerLoki »

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2806
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2020, 12:38:55 pm »
Wouldn't they have a general understanding of how the No-God awoke the first time around?  My understanding was they were placing souls in the sarcophagus and eventually one did something.  They might not have realized the key was Nau-Cayuti in particular, but I would assume if they wanted to initiate resumption, they would be constantly trying new souls hoping they'd get another to work.

Post Mengedda, it appears the Consult has just been playing a waiting game.  Maybe they had too many things going when the No-God arose the first time to recognize the cause?

Well, the issue could be that even if they realized, or suspected, that an Anisumibor was needed to reboot it, as far as they knew, they were all dead.  However, in light of the new information, some of them might well have considered the connection.  Aunrang doesn't seem to right off the bat, but Aurang also is not exactly a genius.  When you had a plan spanning centuries and suddenly new information gets thrown in there in fairly rapid succession, there is a pretty good chance that one might miss something (or a lot of things).
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Francis Buck

  • *
  • Kcub Sicnarf
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • The Lordlady
  • Posts: 273
  • Philosoraptor
    • View Profile
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2020, 09:04:02 am »
Hadn't noticed this thread until now but this is very specifically something that, IMO, requires a better explanation or I will consider it a really dumb way of cheating with character knowledge. Aurang's not portrayed as being stupid -- quite the opposite -- but nor is his memory all THAT bad compared to the Nonmen (in fact compared to them his memory is fucking great). We have no idea even how old Aurang and Aurax, but it's gotta be pretty damn old. Considerably more than 10,000 years, most likely given what we've been told?

All that being said, I don't actually think it's something RSB is pulling a cheat with -- but I do think it ultimately leads to a certain conclusion, which is that the Dunyain have *always* been at the head of the Consult, or nearly always, and that they probably have inadvertantly set in motion a cyclic pattern to the state of Earwa.

They are, I think, slaves to the World, like the gears that make the whole thing happen *no matter what*, though really they are simply cogs in greater machine, one which I suspect the No-God walking (feeding) acts a sort of "Final Cause", only it's not *really* final. The entire point of the No-God (as the Dunyain see it) is something to be used as weapon in order to leave a highly specific number of individuals alive.

I don't think the World can actually be closed, because the No-God doesn't want it to. Why would it? The No-God, for whatever reason, hungers for something very particular. Recall how the No-God repeatedly 'fed' on the people of of Wraeleoth (?), then let their population grow back up only so that it could feed once again. This seems like a microcosmic version of the macrocosmic reality in Earwa.

But this seems, to me, to be a standard Dunyain fuck up. The No-God is not something which one conspires to make happen, but rather the World will literally arrange itself -- by *any means* -- to accomodate the No-God. Think of how barely the entire thing scraped by? Even Kellhus, who is heavily implied to be virtually capable of anything the World requires of him, is absolutely essential to the creation of the No-God. And the Consult itself, two inchoroi only were left for millenia, their greatest Nonman member suffering from its immense age and clearly mad -- and Shauriatas, allegedly now defeated. This last one I don't buy for a second. Shauriatas is literally called Death-Cheater, he is already a disembodied spirit, and I don't see him being out of the series and done with.

Ishual seems more like a No-God breeding project than anything else to me. And the Dune parallel is pretty hard to shake. Perhaps Kellhus was (like Paul) originally believed to be a Kwisatz Haderach of sorts (we know he was a prodigy), but like in Dune, they were off by a generation. And so just like Leto II, Kelmomas the child is transformed into an eldritch abomination of tremendous power.

I lost my train of though, but yeah. This bothers me and I don't think it's an accident lol.