[TGO SPOILERS] Malowebi

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Madness

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« on: July 28, 2016, 11:11:34 pm »
Previous thread here.

In addition to what's in the thread, what is Kellhus' goal with Ciphrang-Malowebi? It's going to be crazy awesome to read about a sorcerer with no compunction about using his sorcery for violence. Does a Ciphrang's skill-set just max out in possessing a sorcerer?
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JRControl

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« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2016, 12:03:10 am »
I hope we finally meet Likaro. After hearing so much about a guy...

Skill set? Hmm...I'd wager they are more powerful when incarnated into the world through Daimotic sorcery, but they probably desire possession more, because then they are riding the soul which is what they enjoy most right?
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Cosi

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« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2016, 12:31:51 am »
I really hope there's enough Malowebi left in there for him to take some kind of especially petty revenge on Likaro when he goes on his rampage.

Possession is probably "desirable" (I put that in quotes because I think Ciphrang are probably happiest just staying the Outside) because it's less painful than being incarnated. If Ciphrang are souls of particularly "strong" mortals, it's also possible possession allows them to experience the pleasures of life.

Madness

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« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2016, 03:50:33 pm »
I hope we finally meet Likaro. After hearing so much about a guy...

Right? And since it was apparently Likaro's connivings at Court that got Malowebi stuck with the Fanim in the first place.

Skill set? Hmm...I'd wager they are more powerful when incarnated into the world through Daimotic sorcery, but they probably desire possession more, because then they are riding the soul which is what they enjoy most right?

Possession is probably "desirable" (I put that in quotes because I think Ciphrang are probably happiest just staying the Outside) because it's less painful than being incarnated. If Ciphrang are souls of particularly "strong" mortals, it's also possible possession allows them to experience the pleasures of life.

Well, Malowebi actually addresses some historical precedent for Ciphrang possession; quoted from Ciphrang Throughout History:

Quote from: WLW, p592
If he were a demon, then Zeum should arm for immediate war, now, before he achieved his immediate goals, for demons were simply Hungers from the abyss, insatiable in their pursuit of destruction.
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Triskele

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« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2016, 03:23:27 am »
Likaro is so fucked.

themerchant

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« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2016, 02:37:36 pm »
Hey we just have one persons word Likaro is an asshole :)

MSJ

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« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2016, 04:40:52 pm »
Hey we just have one persons word Likaro is an asshole :)

Lol, @themerchant. So you think he might not be? I'd say demon head Malowebi is gonna put and end to him either way.
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« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2016, 02:46:21 pm »
I don't know. Malowebi - pre-beheading - was quick-minded and seemed to figure things out fairly sharpish (like how fucked he was all round). He did make Likaro his rule of thumb as per what not to do and think... then again Malowebi was Second Negotiant for a reason ;).
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Onrack

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« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2016, 10:11:08 pm »
I admit to a bit of confusion with that last Malowebi POV. So the Kellman cuts off his head, and puts a demon one it's place, which then starts looking like Malowebi? I didn't think you had to behead someone to possess the body. And why would Malowebi's body have sorcerous power without his head and the knowledge that comes with?

Also, did Zsoronga die last book, and I just completely forgot about it? No real mention of him in the book that I can recall. I was also a tad disappointed that we didn't get another check in on those two grunts at the beginning of the first Aorsi chapter, was nice to get their perspective. Though given how deranged the Ordeal became, perhaps it was a blessing to not get more of their PoV.

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« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2016, 02:14:00 am »
Now, I haven't got that far in my reread, but I thought we get a POV from Malowebi's decapitated head.......ergo he is destined to watch someway, somehow. In a way that has nothing to do with his body and the fused head of the decapitant.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2016, 07:31:57 pm »
I admit to a bit of confusion with that last Malowebi POV. So the Kellman cuts off his head, and puts a demon one it's place, which then starts looking like Malowebi? I didn't think you had to behead someone to possess the body. And why would Malowebi's body have sorcerous power without his head and the knowledge that comes with?

The Nonman Embassy implies that when visiting the Outside substitutions can happen. But I'm not totally convinced that anyone has tried what Kellhus is doing with Ciphrang-Malowebi. And, not that I'm convinced myself, many readers have suggested that the heart is the seat of the soul in Earwa, rather than the brain.

Also, did Zsoronga die last book, and I just completely forgot about it? No real mention of him in the book that I can recall. I was also a tad disappointed that we didn't get another check in on those two grunts at the beginning of the first Aorsi chapter, was nice to get their perspective. Though given how deranged the Ordeal became, perhaps it was a blessing to not get more of their PoV.

He didn't die in WLW and no mention of him in TGO. Sarl & Captain-Beard, neither (Gollum analogue, I'm sure). Zsoronga does belong to the "line of Nganka'kull" (sp?), which Ciprang-Malowebi is ostensibly supposed to  "end" and he has Sorweel's secret Chorae pouch... so I assume Sorweel will rejoin the Ordeal and probably be as horrified as the Nonmen at the state of the Ordeal and his friend, Zsoronga.

While a major portion of the Ordeal seem to succumb to the Meat, less than half the Ordeal seem to be Scalded - I can never remember the odd notations but there should at least be some citations in TGO or at the end of WLW regarding how many Ordealmen reconvene after Ursulor. With Kellhus' admonition to flee, he seems to sacrifice only the forty-eight Knights of the Desert Lion, a good number of Swayal likely, and then only those Ordealmen and Schoolmen closest to Sibuwal Vaka's lead - he and his Sons of Cepalor are the nearest of the Ordeal when Dagliash blows.
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Onrack

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« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2016, 07:42:28 pm »
The Nonman Embassy implies that when visiting the Outside substitutions can happen. But I'm not totally convinced that anyone has tried what Kellhus is doing with Ciphrang-Malowebi. And, not that I'm convinced myself, many readers have suggested that the heart is the seat of the soul in Earwa, rather than the brain.
Hmm, makes sense I suppose. Though it seems a bit odd to me that there would even be a seat of the soul. Wouldn't Mimara notice or menion something along those lines when looking with the Judging Eye?

Quote
He didn't die in WLW and no mention of him in TGO. Sarl & Captain-Beard, neither (Gollum analogue, I'm sure). Zsoronga does belong to the "line of Nganka'kull" (sp?), which Ciprang-Malowebi is ostensibly supposed to  "end" and he has Sorweel's secret Chorae pouch... so I assume Sorweel will rejoin the Ordeal and probably be as horrified as the Nonmen at the state of the Ordeal and his friend, Zsoronga.

While a major portion of the Ordeal seem to succumb to the Meat, less than half the Ordeal seem to be Scalded - I can never remember the odd notations but there should at least be some citations in TGO or at the end of WLW regarding how many Ordealmen reconvene after Ursulor. With Kellhus' admonition to flee, he seems to sacrifice only the forty-eight Knights of the Desert Lion, a good number of Swayal likely, and then only those Ordealmen and Schoolmen closest to Sibuwal Vaka's lead - he and his Sons of Cepalor are the nearest of the Ordeal when Dagliash blows.
That would be a fairly effective reveal if that's the direction Bakker goes. Reminds me of Reek from ASOIAF. Does seem odd that there wasn't a mention though, just to remind us of his existence. I wonder if the Ciphrang hybrid could have the power to get to Zsoronga, it's quite the distance.

I'm not exactly sure, but the figure of 150,000 seems stuck in my mind for the Ordeal at Ursulor. And 20,000 having been scalded? Wish I had my copy at hand.

[EDIT Madness: For quote tags.]
« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 07:53:16 pm by Madness »

Madness

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« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2016, 07:55:29 pm »
That would be a fairly effective reveal if that's the direction Bakker goes. Reminds me of Reek from ASOIAF. Does seem odd that there wasn't a mention though, just to remind us of his existence. I wonder if the Ciphrang hybrid could have the power to get to Zsoronga, it's quite the distance.

I'm not exactly sure, but the figure of 150,000 seems stuck in my mind for the Ordeal at Ursulor. And 20,000 having been scalded? Wish I had my copy at hand.

Yeah, I wish Proyas had mentioned Zsoronga in Kayutas' entourage or something.

Reek - that's an interesting analogy. Maybe Zsoronga will be majorly depraved.
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Mandos

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« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2016, 04:18:23 am »
So, I was in the process re-reading TGO, when I noticed a continuity error with Malowebi's beheading and Kellhus' description. Perhaps it' just an oversight and/or result of literary ploy of switching character viewpoints, or maybe there's something else going on... Put on your tinfoil hats!

My page numbers are from US Hardcover edition, in case it's different in other countries. Bold is my emphasis.

Chapter 16 - Momemn, starting on page 419, we switch between Kelmomas', Malowebi's and Esmenet's POVs.

Page 451, end of Malowebi's section:
Quote
"What?" the Mbimayu Schoolman gasped. "What ... are ... you?"
The man reached for the pommel jutting above his shoulder. Enshoiya flashed in the embattled light ....
"Weary," the grim visage replied
The famed sword fell.

Next comes Kel's short section, as he continues to follow Issiral/WLW through the ruined palace. POV switches to Esmenet, who also follows Issiral/WLW to the throne room, where she find Kellhus on Page 455:
Quote
She knew him instantly, but a more stubborn fraction of her soul elected to believe he was Issiral. His every step proved an insult to this pretense, the discs of gold about his hands and face, the Decapitants bound to his girdle, the flaxen beard and mane, the looming stature...

Next comes a small WLW section in all italics, everything-already-happened style. Followed by longer Kel's section, where his cry breaks the pre-ordained murder of Aspect-Emperor. Followed by chapter's last, Malowebi's POV, on page 461:
Quote
Casting his blade into the carpeted earth, the Aspect-Emperor seized one of the Decapitants, wrenched diabolical trophy from his girdle, then raised horror to the welling stump of his neck ...

There's clearly a continuity error, the way these sections appear in Chapter 16. We get Malowebi getting beheaded by Kellhus, then Kellhus coming to throne room of the palace and avoiding WLW's pre-ordained assassination, and chapter ends with Malowebi-Ciphrang fusion. On one hand we can dismiss it, as part of a literary ploy of switching different POVs. Of course, Kellhus fused Malowebi with Ciphrang head first, then he went to the throne room. But, when Esmenet find Kellhus in throne room, he still has "Decapitants bound to his girdle" - multiple, as in two, like he always does, when it should be one... So what's going on here? We can also dismiss this as an error - Kellhus is always described as having "Decapitants bound to his girdle", so perhaps it was a simple oversight on the part of the author. Or could it be something else... Are the two scenes in fact happening at the same time? One in throne room, and one in Fanim camp? Are there two of Kellhus? Is he splitting himself? Am I just reading too much into it, and spinnig tinfoil hat theories?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 04:20:27 am by Mandos »

MSJ

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« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2016, 02:58:29 am »
@Mandos, I noticed the same thing. I believe it's just going back and forth between the two POV's.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,