Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles

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MSJ

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« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2017, 05:02:13 pm »
Let me put it in another way, *why*, that is for what narrative purpose would Sarl be the traveller? Does he warrant a mysterious introduction in the opening of the TAE series?

Well for what narrative purpose would anyone else be? There is no narrative purpose to the traveller, other than to tell Captain that Kellhus has a mission for him. The traveller is not that important. And, I wish I could find the thread where the evidence points to Sarl.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Madness

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« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2017, 05:05:38 pm »
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MSJ

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« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2017, 06:55:11 pm »
prologue

Thanks, Madness! I knew you wouldn't let me down.

Anyway, it was Alia that proposed that it was Sarl, and she makes a very compelling case
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Hiro

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« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2017, 08:42:04 pm »
prologue

Thanks, Madness! I knew you wouldn't let me down.

Anyway, it was Alia that proposed that it was Sarl, and she makes a very compelling case

Well. I've read through that thread. Thanks for the link, Madness. But compelling case, even a very compelling case, how so?

I've reread the prologue, and come on, the speech and thought pattern that is revealed from the traveler, do you find that to match Sarl in any shape or form? The evidence given is far from overwhelming, I would hesitate to even call it circumstantial. Alia herself qualifies this idea as 'crazy'.

Let's take one point:

Who's this 'we' then, the traveller is talking about? How does that relate to Sarl? The case made is that 'we' is actually Kosoter and the traveler -- specu-Sarl. How does one infer that from the text? How is that more likely than that the 'we' is referring to a not-the-Skin-Eaters-group or person? This all follows from the idea that the traveler is actually part of the company. Which is an idea *only* brought forward to try to support the traveler = Sarl theory. There is nothing in the text there nor elsewhere to support that reading.

Basically the argument is Sarl is lying and Akka is lying or misled as well. Other characters have more serious ground for misdirection than poor Sarl.

And, what function would Sarl in the prologue as the traveler have? The prologue introduces the Skin-Eaters anyway, no Sarl as the traveler required. It introduces scalping, no Sarl as the traveler required. In that case, there is actually no need for a traveler character at all, is there?

Therefore I claim that the traveler has a different function. Sarl doesn't set anything in motion if he would be the traveler. Others, however:

In that tread there are more interesting and compelling suggestions than Sarl, Kayatus for one. But I stand by Geraus, 'we' refers to the Empire. Or Soma, where 'we' can stand for a few things. As the Skin-Spy is, I am quite sure, originally sent by the Consult to keep track of Cleric. The Erratic King of Ishterebinth.

Those two options for the traveler at least have a narrative payoff. A mystery revealed, albeit indirectly.
Mystery denotes darkness

themerchant

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« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2017, 09:06:09 pm »
Geraus makes sense isn't there a line in TJE where Geraus's wife is angry as hell at Akka cause he takes too long to come home? Might be a detour to grab the "boys" back from the "slog".

Went and checked it's just his general absence, when he heads into Marrow 4 times a year.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 09:11:39 pm by themerchant »

MSJ

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« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2017, 09:19:33 pm »
prologue

Thanks, Madness! I knew you wouldn't let me down.

Anyway, it was Alia that proposed that it was Sarl, and she makes a very compelling case

Well. I've read through that thread. Thanks for the link, Madness. But compelling case, even a very compelling case, how so?

I've reread the prologue, and come on, the speech and thought pattern that is revealed from the traveler, do you find that to match Sarl in any shape or form? The evidence given is far from overwhelming, I would hesitate to even call it circumstantial. Alia herself qualifies this idea as 'crazy'.

Let's take one point:

Who's this 'we' then, the traveller is talking about? How does that relate to Sarl? The case made is that 'we' is actually Kosoter and the traveler -- specu-Sarl. How does one infer that from the text? How is that more likely than that the 'we' is referring to a not-the-Skin-Eaters-group or person? This all follows from the idea that the traveler is actually part of the company. Which is an idea *only* brought forward to try to support the traveler = Sarl theory. There is nothing in the text there nor elsewhere to support that reading.

Basically the argument is Sarl is lying and Akka is lying or misled as well. Other characters have more serious ground for misdirection than poor Sarl.

And, what function would Sarl in the prologue as the traveler have? The prologue introduces the Skin-Eaters anyway, no Sarl as the traveler required. It introduces scalping, no Sarl as the traveler required. In that case, there is actually no need for a traveler character at all, is there?

Therefore I claim that the traveler has a different function. Sarl doesn't set anything in motion if he would be the traveler. Others, however:

In that tread there are more interesting and compelling suggestions than Sarl, Kayatus for one. But I stand by Geraus, 'we' refers to the Empire. Or Soma, where 'we' can stand for a few things. As the Skin-Spy is, I am quite sure, originally sent by the Consult to keep track of Cleric. The Erratic King of Ishterebinth.

Those two options for the traveler at least have a narrative payoff. A mystery revealed, albeit indirectly.

I'd venture to say Sarl is Zaudunyaini. Regardless Hiro, I just found her theory intriguing, with some circumstantial evidence to back it up. More than anyone else has gave, imo. Really, who the traveller is has little to no bearing on the narrative. I think Geraus is another compelling case, tbh. Though, it's not one of the mysteries I'm really concerned with. I really like reading the theories and evidence to back them up, though. Cheers, mate!
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Hiro

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« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2017, 09:41:31 am »
prologue

Thanks, Madness! I knew you wouldn't let me down.

Anyway, it was Alia that proposed that it was Sarl, and she makes a very compelling case

Well. I've read through that thread. Thanks for the link, Madness. But compelling case, even a very compelling case, how so?

I've reread the prologue, and come on, the speech and thought pattern that is revealed from the traveler, do you find that to match Sarl in any shape or form? The evidence given is far from overwhelming, I would hesitate to even call it circumstantial. Alia herself qualifies this idea as 'crazy'.

Let's take one point:

Who's this 'we' then, the traveller is talking about? How does that relate to Sarl? The case made is that 'we' is actually Kosoter and the traveler -- specu-Sarl. How does one infer that from the text? How is that more likely than that the 'we' is referring to a not-the-Skin-Eaters-group or person? This all follows from the idea that the traveler is actually part of the company. Which is an idea *only* brought forward to try to support the traveler = Sarl theory. There is nothing in the text there nor elsewhere to support that reading.

Basically the argument is Sarl is lying and Akka is lying or misled as well. Other characters have more serious ground for misdirection than poor Sarl.

And, what function would Sarl in the prologue as the traveler have? The prologue introduces the Skin-Eaters anyway, no Sarl as the traveler required. It introduces scalping, no Sarl as the traveler required. In that case, there is actually no need for a traveler character at all, is there?

Therefore I claim that the traveler has a different function. Sarl doesn't set anything in motion if he would be the traveler. Others, however:

In that tread there are more interesting and compelling suggestions than Sarl, Kayatus for one. But I stand by Geraus, 'we' refers to the Empire. Or Soma, where 'we' can stand for a few things. As the Skin-Spy is, I am quite sure, originally sent by the Consult to keep track of Cleric. The Erratic King of Ishterebinth.

Those two options for the traveler at least have a narrative payoff. A mystery revealed, albeit indirectly.

I'd venture to say Sarl is Zaudunyaini. Regardless Hiro, I just found her theory intriguing, with some circumstantial evidence to back it up. More than anyone else has gave, imo. Really, who the traveller is has little to no bearing on the narrative. I think Geraus is another compelling case, tbh. Though, it's not one of the mysteries I'm really concerned with. I really like reading the theories and evidence to back them up, though. Cheers, mate!

Deeper into WLW, I put forth a third option, as the SE's have been in the employ of the Empire to keep an eye on Akka.

The traveler could very well be an agent, Geraus or another, from the Empire. With the specific function to inform Kosoter that Mimara has fled from the palace, and is suspected to get to Achamian.

As the title of the book TJE, refers to Mimara as well, I lean to this option for now.
Mystery denotes darkness

MSJ

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« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2017, 09:47:30 am »
Your assessment is very plausible and makes as much sense as any. I am neither for or against anyone being the Traveller, I just find it interesting to read everyone's ideas as to who it is.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

citizensnips

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« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2017, 07:46:39 pm »
So in addition to intellect and motor reflexes, do the Dûnyain breed for insane finger strength? In TWP Kel survives an assassination attempt by reaching behind himself and catching the oncoming blade between his fingers.

Also, the first time he encounters a skin spy he reasons it's face is made of cartilage, "like a shark". How would he know what a shark is?

EDIT: These are probably less "loose threads" and more "little things that bugged me", but I've been needing to get that off my chest for a while now.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 07:49:09 pm by citizensnips »

SuJuroit

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« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2017, 08:50:04 pm »
Quote
So in addition to intellect and motor reflexes, do the Dûnyain breed for insane finger strength? In TWP Kel survives an assassination attempt by reaching behind himself and catching the oncoming blade between his fingers.

The Dunyain are basically wuxia heroes.  They're as strong as they need to be in order to be awesome and badass.  Remember the scene where Kellhus dangled Cnaiur, a hulking mountain of muscle, over a cliff by his neck?  With one hand?  Yeah. 

Quote
Also, the first time he encounters a skin spy he reasons it's face is made of cartilage, "like a shark". How would he know what a shark is?

This one doesn't bug me too much. The Dunyain do have books and knowledge of mundane things, plus there's no telling what Kellhus picked up after he was "captured" by the Conriyans.

themerchant

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« Reply #55 on: September 07, 2017, 10:21:05 am »
I don't mind the one hand thing, I suspect Kellhus is significantly heavier than Cnaiur. He is of a bigger frame and has dense bones.

I just let it slide, cause then saying one thing and thinking the other makes a dragon appear from nowhere and breath fire would be a stretch for me to believe too.

SuJuroit

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« Reply #56 on: September 07, 2017, 02:07:30 pm »
I think Kellhus is taller than Cnaiur (who is himself described as pretty tall), but we don't see Kellhus described as especially muscular or strongly built, whereas we get countless descriptions of Cnaiur's incredibly broad shoulders, his bull-like chest, his heavily muscled arms, his "neckbreaking strength", etc.  You've got to figure a guy described like that (who is also described as tall) would have to weigh at the very least 200lbs, probably significantly more.  Considering a man of average strength might be able to hold 30-40lbs at arms length, shoulder height without dropping it or losing his balance, and a man of great strength might be able to handle twice that, but what Kellhus did was downright superhuman.

And I'm OK with that.  Like I said before, it's all part of establishing Kellhus as badass and explicitly superhuman.  He's quick and coordinated enough to snatch arrows from the air.  He's skilled enough to beat up his world's version of Conan the Barbarian.  He's strong enough to dangle said barbarian over a cliff with one hand.  He's persuasive enough to talk almost anybody into anything.  And it all works well within the context of the story.

themerchant

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« Reply #57 on: September 07, 2017, 02:28:51 pm »
Cnaiur is described as narrow waisted as well, so he could be built like Tommy Hearns.

"Cnaüir loomed above her. Broad shoulders and narrow hips" TDTCB chapter 14.

I believe bakker said there cnaiur was 2 inches shorter than Kellhus in a random chat ages ago.

I was just stating i think Kellhus would be a heavier than Cnaiur.


SuJuroit

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« Reply #58 on: September 07, 2017, 03:50:58 pm »
Arnold Schwarzenegger had narrow hips too, and Cnaiur is described as having that bodybuilder-esque triangle shape.  Tommy Hearns didn't have particularly broad shoulders for his size, he was kind of a narrow guy all around, and he certainly didn't have what I'd call a "bull-like chest". 

But I agree it's possible Kellhus weighs more than Cnaiur, especially if you factor in his super dense Dunyain bones (because naturally the Dunyain have more awesome bones than normal people).  We're repeatedly told that Kellhus is really tall, taller than almost all other characters except for guys like Yalgrota, so let's say he's 6'6, 250lbs?  Which would make Cnaiur 6'4, with a mighty frame, "strapped with muscle".  Maybe he's 220, 230lbs?  Those sizes work for my mental images of the characters.

themerchant

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« Reply #59 on: September 07, 2017, 05:23:38 pm »
Bakker has said that Kellhus was 6ft6 and Cnaiur 6ft4 back on 3 seas. So those seem the correct heights.

My original point is basically in the arena of suspension of disbelief, holding 200lb at arms length is always easier for me to believe than being able to do magic.