Trying to remember a turn of phrase in The Great Ordeal

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WeAreProyas

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« on: August 24, 2017, 02:34:50 am »
It is possible I am remembering something from the initial Holy War but I would swear it was something mentioned in The Great Ordeal.

I vaguely remember a passage in which a group of men participating in the Ordeal were called something like Herdsmen, Foragers, or Harvesters and the book went on to say this term would later become a holy or revered term.

Does anyone remember this?

It struck me at the time because it basically proved that humanity/civilization would survive enough for a collective memory to exist of the Great Ordeal. It made such an impact on me that I imagined at the time that it was a clue to what Bakker's final volumes set in the future would cover.

I imagined they would show a world in which a religion/belief system had been established based on the events of TGO and TUC, accurate or inaccurate. That we the reader who had "seen" the end of TUC would know what was true and false.

Just goes to show I don't know a damn thing about what Bakker is thinking!!

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2017, 03:15:29 am »
Maybe you're talking about the Sakarpic. They're called shit-herders at one point, but then later the tone changes.

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2017, 05:12:47 am »
I remember the line.  I don't remember where it is, but I think it's in either The Great Ordeal of The White Luck Warrior.

Zealously

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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2017, 07:15:19 am »
I remember the line.  I don't remember where it is, but I think it's in either The Great Ordeal of The White Luck Warrior.

I think it's in The Great Ordeal -- I want to say it is in one of the chapter epigraphs, but that might not be accurate.

@WeAreProyas:

I think I've seen this particular (or similar) line of thinking brought up elsewhere on this forum previously, and I think it's a really good guess. As far as I can tell (and I'm not yet past TJE in my re-read, so my memory is rusty) the whatever-they-were-called whose names would later become holy aren't brought up to any significant extent in TUC, which indicates one of two things:

A) they're referred to as holy among the ordinary Men of the Ordeal, amongst which we really have almost no eyes in the narrative. We follow the Ordeal from two perspectives -- looking down (via commanders and various VIPs like Proyas, Serwa and Sorweel) and in a third person-omniscient kind of way (the "Death came swirling down" narrative voice that covers battles and marches) -- and neither give much insight into the day-to-day, habitual actions of menial Men of the Ordeal. We don't really know what Johnny High Ainon thinks about Proyas' command or about butchering the Scalded or any other detail of his ordinary friends' thoughts and reverences. Given this narrative blindness, it's possible the Herdsmen (which is what I want to say the people we're talking about are called, but I don't have my book with me) are referred to as Holy already by the time the Ordeal reaches Golgotterath.

B) the epigraphs are written shortly-to-long after the Ordeal's end, which means that people both survived to tell the tale and survived well enough to write stories, poetries and historical accounts about the march to Golgotterath. That means the Herdsmen may not have become holy yet at the point  we have reached in the story, but the endless re-tellings will somehow elevate them later. I'm reluctant to believe the people that will now assemble to fight the No-God's armies are going to be penning a lot of literature in the near future, which leaves the possibility of it having been written much later.

H

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« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2017, 10:50:59 am »
I had a hunch it was not in TGO and thought it was WLW.  It was actually TJE:

Quote
Vast herds of sheep and cattle, bred solely to accompany the march, were also beaten across the horizon, so many that some Men of the Ordeal began calling themselves ka Koumiroi, or the Herdsmen—a name that would later become holy.

Chapter 7, not an epigraph though.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Sausuna

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« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2017, 12:15:29 pm »
I had a hunch it was not in TGO and thought it was WLW.  It was actually TJE:

Quote
Vast herds of sheep and cattle, bred solely to accompany the march, were also beaten across the horizon, so many that some Men of the Ordeal began calling themselves ka Koumiroi, or the Herdsmen—a name that would later become holy.

Chapter 7, not an epigraph though.
I think A fits a lot more, especially considering how their view on food prior to eating the Meat was.

Either way, I think there are other references to the idea that people outlive The Great Ordeal. It might have been the epigraph or something that sounded like someone had chronicled the events after the fact.

Woden

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« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2017, 02:04:26 pm »
Good points.
I remember that line when I read it and that gave me the false intuition that somehow the Great Ordeal would survive or achieve the goal of destroying Golgotterath.
Know what your slaves believe, and you will always be their master.

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« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2017, 02:13:24 pm »
A thread even from the Before Times in the Long Long Ago.
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WeAreProyas

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« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2017, 03:23:15 pm »
Thank you for finding the passage. I don't think I could have ever tracked it down.
Not surprised it was noticed when it first came out...thanks Madness.

I guess it all comes down to how long the "later" refers to.

In the way back thread Sologdin mentions having made notes in the margin when forward looking spoilery appeared in the text. I wonder if a compilation of those could be created.

themerchant

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« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2017, 04:13:18 pm »
It is possible I am remembering something from the initial Holy War but I would swear it was something mentioned in The Great Ordeal.

I vaguely remember a passage in which a group of men participating in the Ordeal were called something like Herdsmen, Foragers, or Harvesters and the book went on to say this term would later become a holy or revered term.

Does anyone remember this?

It struck me at the time because it basically proved that humanity/civilization would survive enough for a collective memory to exist of the Great Ordeal. It made such an impact on me that I imagined at the time that it was a clue to what Bakker's final volumes set in the future would cover.

I imagined they would show a world in which a religion/belief system had been established based on the events of TGO and TUC, accurate or inaccurate. That we the reader who had "seen" the end of TUC would know what was true and false.

Just goes to show I don't know a damn thing about what Bakker is thinking!!

It's in TJE, the folk who move the big herds for food.

themerchant

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« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2017, 04:13:50 pm »
I had a hunch it was not in TGO and thought it was WLW.  It was actually TJE:

Quote
Vast herds of sheep and cattle, bred solely to accompany the march, were also beaten across the horizon, so many that some Men of the Ordeal began calling themselves ka Koumiroi, or the Herdsmen—a name that would later become holy.

Chapter 7, not an epigraph though.

I need to read to the end of threads, so i don't duplicate info. :)

H

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« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2017, 06:21:43 pm »
I had a hunch it was not in TGO and thought it was WLW.  It was actually TJE:

Quote
Vast herds of sheep and cattle, bred solely to accompany the march, were also beaten across the horizon, so many that some Men of the Ordeal began calling themselves ka Koumiroi, or the Herdsmen—a name that would later become holy.

Chapter 7, not an epigraph though.

I need to read to the end of threads, so i don't duplicate info. :)

If it makes you feel better, you can think of it as confirmation I didn't make it up, ;)
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Zealously

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« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2017, 06:50:05 am »
I had a hunch it was not in TGO and thought it was WLW.  It was actually TJE:

Quote
Vast herds of sheep and cattle, bred solely to accompany the march, were also beaten across the horizon, so many that some Men of the Ordeal began calling themselves ka Koumiroi, or the Herdsmen—a name that would later become holy.

Chapter 7, not an epigraph though.

Wow, it really has been a long time  ???  Thanks for tracking that down, though!