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Topics - ThoughtsOfThelli

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The Unholy Consult / Mirathais
« on: March 24, 2018, 06:05:08 pm »
Working on the character list does tend to bring previously overlooked details/characters into attention.
Remember this briefly mentioned character?

From chapter 3 of TUC:
The Exalt-General, the Conriyan chronicler Mirathais would write, grew as ashen as the ground vacated around him.
The Exalt-General wept, Mirathais would write in his journal, "as a father who finds a vanished child."

This is interesting, as it does confirm that at least some of the Ordealmen survived to return to the Three Seas and tell others of their experiences. Mirathais was almost certainly one of them, unless someone else (other Conriyans?) managed to secure his writings (less likely, given everything that happened to the Ordeal). It also implies that word of Proyas' disgrace did reach the Three Seas and his family.

The Unholy Consult / What-if scenario
« on: March 18, 2018, 09:44:20 pm »
I've been wondering about this for a while. (I do enjoy what-ifs, haven't seen that many discussed in these forums...)

What if...Kelmomas hadn't been present at the Last Whelming for some reason, or had been restrained and/or unable to reach Sorweel before Sorweel used his concealed Chorae on Kellhus?

End result is that Kellhus still dies, only earlier than in canon. Sorweel is presumably killed by Serwa shortly afterwards, as he foresaw during his short time as the White-Luck Warrior. The Great Ordeal is now effectively left headless.
Do Kayûtas and/or Serwa assume leadership and carry on with their father's plan? Are they even able to? Is the fallout from the loss of the Holy Aspect-Emperor too great and the Ordeal just scatters in anger/panic/grief/disbelief/etc.? "Salt and butchery" is still a very likely outcome...
How does this affect the Mutilated's plans? They had planned to use Kellhus to activate the No-God, do they just try to use another Anasûrimbor (Kayûtas, Serwa, Kelmomas, maybe even Mimara if she counts as one?)? Is this where the prophecy that had to be respected (according to Aurang and Tsuör the skin-spy) comes into place?

Please discuss, I'd really like to know what you all think would happen in this scenario.

The Unholy Consult / Identity of the Mutilated
« on: March 13, 2018, 08:58:45 pm »
TLEILAXU and I were discussing the possible identity of the Mutilated in the Quorum and I mentioned how shortly after reading TUC I had considered the possibility that one or more of them could be (one or more of) the Pragma mentioned in PON. According to the wiki, however, Samarmau Uän was born in 4001 and Meigon was born in 4002, which would make them 131 and 130 as of TAE. So, it would be exceedingly unlikely for one or both of them to be among the Mutilated (unless chanv was involved, I suppose).
But then we noticed that the third Pragma mentioned by name, Kessriga Jeükal does not have his birth date given in the text, and unlike the other two does not have a glossary entry. Which could be significant by itself. To be sure, Jeükal taught Kellhus in his youth and Kellhus was in his 50s during TAE, so he can't be a young man in any case, but it's possible he was nowhere near as old as the other two. And keep in mind that Malowebi himself is not young either, so maybe he wouldn't remark on the Mutilated's age as, say, someone like Sorweel or Kelmomas might have had. TLEILAXU also pointed out that the burnt Mutilated's scars are so extensive they might actually make it hard for Malowebi to tell what his actual age is.
So it definitely seems that there could be some clues here - anyway, it's as interesting a subject to discuss as any. Anyone else want to comment/add some details we might have missed?

General Q&A / [TUC Spoilers] Tsinirû
« on: March 10, 2018, 10:06:05 pm »
From the TUC glossary,
"Ishterebinth" entry:
This (likely apocryphal) prophecy of competition between Ishoriöl and Siöl did not come to pass until the famed marriage of Queen Tsinirû (one of the most gifted of the Quyil) with Sin'niroiha, the Nonman King of Nihrimsûl, the ancient rival of Kû'jara-Kinmoi.
"Nihrimsûl" entry:
What little is known regarding Nihrimsûl comes refracted through the lens of Ishoriöl, which though unified with Nihrimsûl through the marriage of Sin'niroiha and Tsinirû, remained thoroughly Tsonic in custom and outlook.
"Sin'niroiha" entry:
Nonman King of Nihrimsûl, initially, and thence Ishoriöl through his marriage to the sorceress Tsinirû, who would bear him Nil'giccas, his only son, and at long last unite all Mansions under the Blood of Tsonos.

Can we thus conclude that Tsinirû was the queen of Ishoriöl in her own right before the marriage to Sin'niroiha? If so, that's a tantalizing bit of information...we know so little about the Cûnuroi women, let alone their role in society and whatnot. They're mostly notable just for the fact of their deaths, and bits like this just make me want to know more about some of these female characters that are mentioned here and there throughout the books.

General Earwa / Event thread (for the wiki)
« on: March 08, 2018, 11:44:21 pm »
Sister thread to this one. This thread will cover any events that aren't birth or deaths, in (rough) chronological order.

This is what I have for now:

Nau-Cayûti's marriage to Iëva

From TWLW, chapter 12:
Through closed eyes he watched her, Iëva, his wife of seven years, scurry naked to the cabinet across their spare room and produce a philtre, which she considered with an expression hung between terror and gloating.
As this takes place at the time of Nau-Cayûti's "death", established as taking place in 2140 (TTT glossary, among other sources), it can be concluded that Nau-Cayûti and Iëva were married in or around 2133.

Mimara is sold into slavery

From TDTCB, chapter 3:
"Six years ago," she repeated. "My daughter died the same year."
This chapter takes place in the early spring of 4110, meaning that Mimara would have "died" around early 4104, maybe sometime in the later part of 4103. The way this is phrased leads me to believe, however, that it is more likely that Mimara would have been sold into slavery in (early) 4104 (for the curious, she would have been 8-9 at the time).

Serwa is sent to go live with the Swayal Sisterhood

From TJE, chapter 3:
But when she was scarce three years old, her tutors realized that she possessed the Gift of the Few. Despite Esmenet's threats, despite her entreaties, Kellhus sent the girl-still a babe!-to Iothiah to be raised among the Swayal witches.
In the other thread Serwa's birth year was estimated as being 4115, meaning she was sent to live among the Swayal Sisterhood in or around 4118.

The "incident" between Theliopa and Inrilatas takes place

Discussed in this thread and estimated as taking place at some point before 4129, possibly before 4127 considering some of the information available (4127 referring to the latest year possible for Kelmomas and Samarmas to still be soul-conjoined).

I'll keep updating this thread with more events as I go along.

This might be helpful for me (and anyone else who wants to contribute) to figure out what has been done and what still needs to be done. Other people may want to comment on my edits if they disagree with parts of those and whatnot.

Things of note I did recently:
-Complete rework and expansion of the "Anasûrimbor Theliopa" page
-Creation of the "Nameless one" page
-Creation of the "Nersei Miramis" page (I might have messed up a bit with this one, as I named it just "Miramis" at first and only changed the name later on)
-Creation of the "Nersei Xinemus" page
-Creation of the "Nersei Thaila (younger)" page
-Creation of the "Nersei Thaila (elder)" page
-Expansion of the "Appearance" sections of the "Anasûrimbor Kayûtas", "Anasûrimbor Serwa", "Anasûrimbor Inrilatas", "Anasûrimbor Kelmomas" and "Anasûrimbor Samarmas" pages
-Expansion of the "Iëva" page

General Misc. / Pets
« on: March 01, 2018, 11:28:53 pm »
As someone who has a whole bunch of them, I figured a thread like this is in order. ;) Also because I'm curious to learn what sort of pets everyone else has/had.

So, my pets (from oldest to youngest; quality of pics might vary because I tried to compromise between the best and most recent ones I had of each pet):

Manchas (female, age 14)

Luna (female, age 14)

Cookie (male, age 12)

Cherry (male, age 11)

Sacha (male, age 10)

Zuri (female, age 10)

Ziggy (male, age 8 months)

(Yes, none of them are that young except for that last little troublemaker. We weren't really planning on adopting another cat, but he just showed up on the street one day, we took him in and ended up keeping him for good.)

Oh, and a bonus one - this is Milu, my sister's dog (male, age 4). Not really part of the household like the other 7, but I figure I'd include him too.

General Q&A / Exact number of "nameless ones"?
« on: February 28, 2018, 03:46:53 pm »
After creating a wiki page for the nameless, deformed child of Kellhus and Esmenet the other day, I kept wondering about the other ones he had with concubines. I can't seem to figure out the exact number, though...this is the relevant quote from chapter 3 of TJE:
Of the seventeen concubines he impregnated, ten died in childbirth, and the others gave birth to more… nameless ones. Thirteen in sum, all drowned in wine.
Okay, so what happened to the children the ten women who died in childbirth gave birth to? The number given only seems to refer to the ones birthed by the remaining seven concubines! If it was referring to all of them, it would make no sense for seventeen concubines to produce thirteen children.
Is Esmenet just not taking stillborn children into account? Those thirteen had to be born alive to be drowned later on, so that may be the case?

The Great Ordeal / Timing the incident between Theliopa and Inrilatas?
« on: February 25, 2018, 07:20:17 pm »
Not that I enjoy talking about the details of the most traumatic experience of my favourite character's life, but today I was editing Thelli's wiki page on a whim and kept wondering about this...

What do we know?
Well, when Thelli and Kelmomas have their conversation late in TGO (chapter 16), she says
"I’m surprised you remember."
meaning Kelmomas would have been very young when it went down (or it actually happened before he was born and he just remembers Inrilatas calling Thelli "Sranky"?).

But then we have this, from the same conversation:
"How many times?" he asked her.
A lethargic blink. "Until Father locked him up."
So it seems Kellhus had Inrilatas locked up for good as a direct result of Thelli's rape (or at least it was the last straw for him).

When was Inrilatas imprisoned, exactly?
In chapter 12 of TJE, Kelmomas thinks:
He never stopped raving, which was why he was always kept locked in his room. Kelmomas had not seen him for more than three years.
Therefore the Theliopa/Inrilatas incident had to have happened at least 3 years before the events of TAE (so, in or before 4129).
Kelmomas is 8 years old during TAE, so he would have been 5 at the most at that time...which makes Thelli's comment about him remembering seem somewhat strange. I mean, it doesn't seem implausible in the least that a half-Dûnyain child would remember something that happened when they were 5 or younger...

However, remember that Kelmomas' soul was conjoined to Samarmas' for quite a while during their early life. In chapter 5 of TJE, Kelmomas reflects on this:
Only in his third summer, when Hagitatas, with doddering yet implacable patience, made a litany of the difference between beast, man, and god, was Kelmomas able to overcome the tumult that was his brother.
So it is possible that Theliopa was referring to the rapes starting when Kelmomas was younger than 3 (and thus still one being with Samarmas and unable to remember anything that happened during that time) and Inrilatas' imprisonment actually coming later (as Kellhus finally decided that things couldn't go on any longer as they were). Which, to me, does seem to be somewhat more plausible than the previous possibility I pointed out.

It does make Thelli's backstory even more depressing, thinking she might have been raped for years with Kellhus knowing and not doing anything about it during most of that time... :(

Any comments/opinions on this?

Literature / The Stone Dance of the Chameleon
« on: January 09, 2018, 04:24:32 pm »
Here's a reading suggestion for you all during this fine new year. :)

This series is a trilogy (consisting on: The Chosen, The Standing Dead and The Third God) written by a Portuguese author, Ricardo Pinto (though the original version is in English - apparently he has lived in the UK since a very young age).
It is set in a world ruled by the (appropriately-named) Masters, who oppress the remainder of humanity and live (mostly) in a citadel, Osrakum, isolated from the rest of the world, ruled by a God Emperor. One of the other ethnic groups of this world, the Plainsmen, must surrender a certain number of their children to become slaves of the Masters every year (this is enforced through an organized system). The Masters also wear masks and have a complicated set of rules that determines who can be masked in whose presence. (That's all I'm going to say on their society - I'd probably do a poor job of explaining it further and you should check it out by yourselves... ;) )
The protagonist is a teenage boy, Carnelian, who is the son and heir of an exiled Master. He has lived his whole life in an island far away from Osrakum (he was an infant at the time of the exile) and has developed a sense of compassion that other Masters lack due to it. The story starts when some of the other Masters unexpectedly leave Osrakum and arrive at the island intending to have Carnelian's father (and Carnelian himself) return with them, as the God Emperor is dying. They have revoked the father's exile so that he can act as He-who-goes-before (a regent of sorts) for the short time they have while the current emperor is still alive, and aid them in making sure the election of the next God Emperor goes their way.

This series has some wonderfully developed world building. The author's website is very much detailed on this matter and should absolutely be checked out (though maybe only after reading the whole series, as there are some spoilers on there).

Oh, and another thing I thought I should mention: this is a low fantasy series, but it includes dinosaurs (not sure how you might feel about that, maybe some of you would be put off by it). That might sound silly and in contrast with the rest of the world, but let me explain: in this world, you have dinosaurs as you might have regular animals in ours. (Honestly, I almost forgot the dinosaurs were there at one point, it's not like their existence is remarkable or anything.) Some are predators to be avoided, like for instance, wolves in our world; some are used as horses would be, etc. It's just part of the world for this story.

Basically: fairly dark story (though you all have read TSA, it's not like it would scare anyone off), low on the fantasy scale (dinosaurs or not...), fantastic worldbuilding. Why not give it a try and add it to your "to read in 2018" list?

The Unholy Consult / The line of Nejata
« on: December 05, 2017, 02:14:41 pm »
I think I found an inconsistency, don't think this has been mentioned before.

In chapter 8 of TUC, Proyas thinks back on the murder of the line of Nejata:

"Where, Father?" he had asked after hearing the last of House Nersei’s ancestral rivals, the Nejati, had been executed. "Where lies the honour in murdering children?"

If his father had spared the sons of Nejata, what then? Vengeance would have been their inheritance, discord and rebellion the consequence.

But, according to the TTT glossary:

Nersei, House—The ruling House of Conriya since the Aöknyssian Uprisings of 3942, which saw the entire line of King Nejata Medekki murdered. The Black Eagle on White is their device.

In the TUC glossary the date of the Uprisings is changed to 3742, but the rest of the entry is identical.
Anyway, the fact remains that Proyas could not have been alive at the time the line of Nejata was extinguished. One could argue there could have been descendants of Nejata alive in Proyas' lifetime, but it seems very unlikely from the wording in the House Nersei entry.

General Earwa / Birth and Death Years of Characters (for the wiki?)
« on: November 23, 2017, 05:06:27 pm »
I thought it would be a good idea to make a thread where we could try to figure out birth/death years of characters, similarly to these threads at Those could later be added to the wiki if not already there.

I'll start with those I had already thought about (more characters can be added later on). Since death years are usually more explicit in TSA, I'll concern myself with birth years for now.

The Eärwan Year

I think it can be assumed that an year in Eärwa lasts about as long as one of ours (feel free to say something if I'm completely wrong about this).
We have a normal human pregnancy lasting what would be a normal amount of time if Eärwan seasons last as long as ours (Serwë was pregnant from the spring of 4111 to early winter of the same year).
The new year apparently starts late in the winter, though, unlike ours, which would begin in early winter (this referring to the Year-of-the-Tusk, not the New Imperial Year).

Part I - Achamian, Cnaiür, Kellhus, Esmenet and Serwë

The Character and Faction Glossary includes this information:
Quote from: TDTCB, Character and Faction Glossary
Drusas Achamian (...), a forty-seven-year-old Mandate sorcerer
Cnaiür (...), a forty-four-year-old Scylvendi barbarian, Chieftain of the Utemot
Esmenet (...), a thirty-one-year-old Sumni prostitute
Anasûrimbor Kellhus (...), a thirty-three-year-old Dûnyain monk
Serwë (...), a nineteen-year-old Nymbricani concubine

The second part of the TDTCB prologue takes place in late autumn of 4109, and the last chapter of the book in late spring of 4111. Now, we're not sure what date these ages refer to - perhaps to the earliest date given. I've also wondered, though, if they could refer to specific dates for every character, that is, to the date of the chapter where they were first introduced. Keeping this in mind, we would have (from oldest to youngest):

-Supposing age refers to 4109: he could be either 46, turning 47 later in the year, or 47, turning 48 later in the year; thus, his birth year would be 4061 or 4062.
-Supposing age refers to first appearance: he first appeared in chapter 1, which took place in midwinter of 4110. He would then have been born in 4062 or 4063.

-Supposing age refers to 4109: he could be 43 turning 44 or 44 turning 45, which would give him a birth year of 4064 or 4065.
-Supposing age refers to first appearance: he first appears in chapter 6, which takes place in early summer of 4110. He would then have been born in 4065 or 4066.

-Supposing age refers to 4109: he could be 32 turning 33 or 33 turning 34, which would give him a birth year of 4075 or 4076.
-Supposing age refers to first appearance: (same as above)

-Supposing age refers to 4109: she could be 30 turning 31 or 31 turning 32, which would give her a birth year of 4077 or 4078.
-Supposing age refers to first appearance: she first appeared in chapter 3 (though not as a POV), which took place in early spring of 4110. She would then have been born in 4078 or 4079.

-Supposing age refers to 4109: she could be 18 turning 19 or 19 turning 20, which would give her a birth year of 4089 or 4090.
-Supposing age refers to first appearance: she first appeared in chapter 13, which took place in spring of 4111. She would then have been born in 4091 or 4092.

But we have more information in the text, and this is where inconsistencies start to crop up:
-In TDTCB, we have this quote mentioning Cnaiür's age:
Quote from: TDTCB, Chapter 6
He was the many-blooded chieftain of the Utemot, a seasoned Scylvendi warrior of more than forty-five summers.
This chapter takes place in the early summer of 4110. That would mean he was at least 46 at the time, though it's possible he would still turn 46 later in the summer, and the "more than forty-five summers" comment would still make sense. If he still had a birthday later in 4110, he would have been born in 4064 at the latest for his age to be "more than forty-five summers".
-There's also this:
Quote from: TDTCB, Chapter 12
He’d counted only sixteen summers the year his cousin Okyati had ridden into camp with Anasûrimbor Moënghus.
Cnaiür also thinks about how the Rite-of-the-Spring-Wolves took place a few weeks after Moënghus' arrival:
Quote from: TDTCB, Chapter 12
Several weeks passed before Moënghus actually spoke to him. The man chose his moment well: the night of Cnaiür's return from the Rite-of-the-Spring-Wolves.
Later in the same chapter, there's also this:
Quote from: TDTCB, Chapter 12
Months later, Skiötha was dead and Cnaiür had become Chieftain of the Utemot.
From the glossaries, we know Skiötha's death took place in 4079:
Quote from: TTT Glossary, "Skiötha urs Hannut"
Skiötha urs Hannut (4038-79)--The father of Cnaiür urs Skiötha, and former Chieftain of the Utemot.
If "sixteen summers" is to be taken literally, Cnaiür would have turned 17 that year (since Moënghus arrived sometime in the spring or earlier), which would mean he was born in 4062. Going by this birth year, Cnaiür would have been 48 in 4110 (or would turn 48 later in the year). Which yes, would still be "more than forty-five summers", but does not add up with the age of 44 given in the character and faction glossary (even if that was supposed to be his age as of the prologue)!
-Serwë thinks of herself as "a girl of twenty summers" in TWP:
Quote from: TWP, Chapter 10
She was wise, far more so, she knew, than a girl of twenty summers should be.
This chapter takes place in the late summer of 4111. Presumably, she would have already turned 20 that summer, giving her a birth year of 4091. There's still a possibility her birth falls very late in the summer and she would still turn 21 that year, though, meaning she would have been born in 4090.

Working from Serwë's possible years of birth given above, considering the age differences given in the TDTCB and TWP character and faction glossaries, we'd have (forgetting the Cnaiür inconsistency for now):
-Achamian (28 years older than Serwë): born 4062 or 4063;
-Cnaiür (25 years older): born 4065 or 4066;
-Kellhus (14 years older): born 4076 or 4077;
-Esmenet (12 years older): born 4078 or 4079.
Which does work with the "age at first appearance" theorized above, actually, except for Serwë herself. However, the 4091 year works with that and with the "twenty summers" reference from the text, so maybe that can be considered as the actual birth year of Serwë?
In that case, Achamian, Kellhus and Esmenet's birth years could in turn be 4063, 4077 and 4079 respectively, since there's nothing in the text to contradict those. Cnaiür is still an issue, though, because it doesn't make much sense to have him be only 13 (or even 14) at the time he met Moënghus...
Please tell me what you think.

I will add new information to this thread/change whatever turns out to be wrong as I go. I'm hoping to add a post covering the birth years of more characters later this week.
We must keep in mind that there are many characters whose age is not easy to determine beyond "young", "middle-aged", "elderly" and so forth, so I won't cover every single character in this thread as the hard-working people at did with ASOIAF ones. (Though if anyone else may want to try that for the sake of completeness, feel free to do so!)
Feel free to suggest characters whose birth/death years are not in the appendices/glossaries and can be estimated from the text (I have some in mind already for Part II already, but I might be forgetting someone).

General Misc. / Back from my unintended hiatus
« on: November 21, 2017, 06:50:08 pm »
Decided to post an update of sorts following the quorum conversation from yesterday, after coming back from my 2-month long hiatus.
I disappeared around early September because I was getting finished with my master's thesis that month. Everything went well and that particular event got wrapped up by late September. I didn't come back at first because I just needed a break. Then by October I was not in a TSA mood and went back to some other fandoms (like ASOIAF). A while back, I found myself wondering about what was going on here and so I came back. :P (and yes, if I disappear for months again, sorry in advance, it's either work or something else that's distracting me)
And another thing: the day after the defense of the dissertation, I found a lost kitten on the street near my house. We ended up keeping him (in addition to 3 older cats and 3 dogs...). I was so close to naming him after a TSA character, but decided against it because most TSA character names are too long for pets to learn. He has since started to act much more mischievous and aggressive/annoying towards the other cats, so I kind of regret not naming him Kelmomas sometimes. ;) (I would post a picture, but I don't have any good ones)

General Q&A / Correct Spellings?
« on: August 16, 2017, 02:53:59 pm »
I've been wondering about this for some time, since I've seen these names spelled differently throughout the series (well, the last one was only mentioned in TGO and TUC, but it still applies). I'd like to know what are the "official" correct spellings?

-"Cû'jara-Cinmoi" or "Cû'jara Cinmoi"? (I'm guessing the former because Bakker spelled his username that way?)
-"Nin'janjin" or "Nin-janjin"?
-"Cet'moyol" or "Cet'moiol"?

General Earwa / Nonman/Human Hybrids
« on: August 13, 2017, 06:02:54 pm »
Today I was browsing the older threads about TSA at when I came across a mention of a Bakker AMA from April of this year. There is a reply on there where Bakker states that Nonman/human hybrids that survive past birth are sterile.
Does this mean that the rape of Omindalea (and subsequent hybrid son/descendants) is definitely not canon? Or does it just mean that the Anasûrimbor do not descend from that particular hybrid after all? Seems strange that they wouldn't, after all, Nanor-Ukkerja lived to be 178 because of his supposed Nonman ancestry, and there are also the possibilities implied regarding Nonman genes among the Dûnyain.

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