Philosophic rights and narrative lefts... the ol' one, two.
Patience is a virtue. Found the go ahead on this last night when I got home from work. Cheers to our perilous beginnings here at Second Apocalypse. Cheers to Bakker, for the words he's given us over the years. Here's to hoping that The Unholy Consult will bring Bakker more fans and money enough to keep him grinding books, worry-free.
Go thank the man ;).
A couple things. This is straight from the working desk and based on the time until TUC's release, I wouldn't be surprised if things changed subtly. This is mostly unlikely due to brevity of the excerpt - Bakker plans on coordinating with a popular blogger to unleash the rest of the chapter closer to TUC's release.
However, and I cannot stress this enough, Bakker was not lying when he's suggested that The Unholy Consult is going to be an infobomb! There is certainly grist for conversation here... enough meat to keep us and newcomers this will undoubtedly draw that much busier until TUC. Read at your own peril... Major Unholy Consult Spoilers.
Second Apocalypse Exclusive:(click to show/hide)
Holy shit! Reading the shit out of this
edit: read the first few lines, and on second thought... saving this bad boy 'til after I'm done with book 5. Thanks for putting this up, Madness.
Was google searching a potential release date and found myself redirected from Pat's to here. Very cool to see some fingers pointed in our way. That said, I don't suppose you have any clearer an idea what day I should mark my calendar for eh Madness?
I think that invocation of Alpha and Omega might qualify as a 'summon Sologdin.'(click to show/hide)
I noticed that Section symbol in there madness, is that in the text or did you add that?
shaeonanraiswithoutbeginningorendshaeonanraiswithoutbeginningorend
shaeonanraiswithoutbeginningorend
shaeonanraiswithoutbeginningor
shaeonanraiswithoutbeginning
shaeonanraiswithout
shaeonanrais
shaeonanra
.
A circle. A self moving soul.
Also, do not fail to note the meta-importance of this exchangeQuote“What does it mean?” she asked of the wind.That, ladies and gentlemen, is known as:
“The Dream?”
“No.” She glanced at him over her shoulder. “The timing.”
Author-Jumping-Up-and-Down-Screaming-Waving-Giant-Flag-Emblazoned-with-Look-at-Me-What-Do-You-See!
Bakker is telling us that in all five preceding books it is not the DREAMS that are important, it is the Timing of Each particular Dream that is crucial. The Why, is a question of When.
We have been asking What [size=50](do you see)[/size]
No idea on a release date, Camlost. I take gifts silently, I didn't hazard many questions ;).
lockesnow, the only formatting I did to the piece was to make it forum ready. The Section symbol made me laugh when I was reading it too - Bakker's own, that one.
Fuck me, I gobbled that up. Feeling indigestion setting on as I mull it over.
Thanks to Scott for his preview!
About the Inchoroi:(click to show/hide)
Ed.: I assume this will be checked for spelling errors? I think I found some. Please let Scott know I'd be happy to proof-read TUC... 8-)
Yes! At long last a taste of what is to come.
And the fact that not what but WHEN. The details conceal and the general reveals. Should have looked for that earlier. No way to decode the dreams in this manner other than going back and reading all the chapters they are in. If only we were doing some kind of reread.
lol @ 'summon Sologdin.'
Very good stuff!! I am now more hyped than ever for TUC which i believe will be the best in the series so far. Thank you Bakker and also Madness for this present.(click to show/hide)
I want more! :)
Any idea when the rest of the chapter will be released?
And where?
I want more as well, please give us 6.1.3 asap!QuoteTruly? Can you not see? In a world so vast, so fraught... The father who does not lie is no father at all.
– Protathis, The Over King
I take this to mean that Moenghus destroyed Ishual after Kellhus left. And I take it to mean that Moe has structured a truly epic lie and Kellhus is so deeply buried within it he can't even see the borders of the lie into the realms of truth.
Alternatively, it could be self mocking. All fiction is necessarily a lie, and yet we readers embed ourselves within a lie and search for truth, but isn't all truth that comes from a lie inherently tainted by the lie itself? Who is the father but the author?
So souls are divisible. This is new. We already have (unconfirmed) reports of two people sharing the same soul, the whole part of the God theory. And now we have one bouncing around between a few old people. Maybe Quirri has something to do with them as well.
This topic should be stickied.
Ahh forumites. I believe the singular thread at westeros has received more responses to the posting here in this forum, than this thread containing the actual excerpt received. It's not posted anywhere else, but all we can manage is 12 replies?
Clearly the solution is that Bakker needs to give us more excerpts.
Perspective is blinding, lockesnow.
In the case of Westeros, I think many of the posters who partake in the Bakker threads there, are consigned to one forum in their lives. In other cases, they simply aren't as interested in Bakker's books as some of us are, and not interested enough to join a new forum.
But let's give it some stats (clearly, I'm nothing more than an amateur marketer):
I posted this thread on Saturday and messaged Pat (Fantasy Hotlist) and Adam (Wertzone) about it later that afternoon. Both of them blogged about it shortly after that and Pat also linked this thread in the Westeros White-Luck thread.
At this point, their blogs respectively have two unique replies (four between the two of them).
As you say, lockesnow, Westeros has garnered the most hits and replies to that thread. I also posted quick links yesterday on Malazan's and SFFWorld's Bakker thread and forum - the Malazan thread getting one reply - and both threads getting a hundred extra views for the post.
Bakker only caught up and posted about it today himself and has only seven comments.
We have just over ten posts to this thread, extra traffic, and no new members.
However, in terms of traffic, it's still early as to the peak of views, probably, based on the relative youth of all those plugs.
The stats certainly give you some insight as to where the internet SFF demographic stands on Bakker, at the moment.
However, I do meet more and more people all the time who love Bakker's books and have no interest in partaking in these discussions online.
EDIT: Foot in mouth. One new member. Welcome, JeffColey. Also, 350, 500, 600, unique visits - as in, non-repeating IPs - Sat, Sun, and today so far, respectively.
Hope I didn't sound too bitchy, I was just hoping for more discussion of the meat in this excerpt, guess that makes me greedy. :(
Does anyone else think that Shaeonanra, as we see him here, represents a self moving soul?
On the subject of souls being divisible, is that what we’re seeing in the dream though?
Achamian speaks of the memories, faculty and character of the soul being torn out and cast into the Outside, tormented there. But is he being literal? If so, and everything that made Shaeonanra himself is now gone, how can he actually be a threat? How can what’s left have a mind or cast spells? If Shaeonanra continues to exist without memories, how can he seek to avoid damnation? Is there something else, some essential Shaeonanra-ness that survives in the empty soul?
Also, does it strike anybody as significant that Mimara asks her question regarding soul trapping in the way she does? “But isn't soul trapping an ancient art?”
Also, do we have the Inchoroi’s name for themselves? Iyisku? Or is this just a term of reverence the Consult uses? Can anybody recall if it shows up anywhere else?
To assume meat always seems to make raw assumption. Sadly the works enforce a kind of stunned silence!
Also westeros forumites basically 'follow the conversation' alot of people post to be in a conversation because that comes first - the excerpt is simply a means to the end of conversing. So you get alot of comments.
Anyway, I'm surprised at the 'How's he doing?' part - doesn't seem a bibilical line of phrase. Maybe that's something about Mimara, but then Akka follows up with some lol. I guess it imbeds the modern into the biblical and the biblical into the modern. I guess space aliens jarred me at first as well, too!
Quote from: Li'l MogOn the subject of souls being divisible, is that what we’re seeing in the dream though?I didn't read that as applying to him - he's spread across living human individuals, not tied up in a rag doll? Did I read wrong?
Achamian speaks of the memories, faculty and character of the soul being torn out and cast into the Outside, tormented there. But is he being literal? If so, and everything that made Shaeonanra himself is now gone,
It's inspired me to actually log in for once since I left a few months ago, Madness. Excellent work, I hope to see more in the near future. Can't wait for the book.
Cheers, Sideris. I've missed the Monocle Shark.
Considering the forum is only a few months old, you likely haven't been away that long. But welcome back.
Thought: How likely is it that the Dunyain kept a genealogical record?
I presume they have to, memory is fallible, is it not? And Kellhus was able to read the runes on the stele, so the Dunyain have a form of writing similar to the ancient Kuniuric that Kellhus was able to read with some effort. I presume that Leweth didn't teach him how to read nor how to read ancient Kuniuric, but maybe he did, that mysterious hermit knew a hell of a lot.
(click to show/hide)
Quote from: Li'l MogOn the subject of souls being divisible, is that what we’re seeing in the dream though?
Achamian speaks of the memories, faculty and character of the soul being torn out and cast into the Outside, tormented there. But is he being literal? If so, and everything that made Shaeonanra himself is now gone, how can he actually be a threat? How can what’s left have a mind or cast spells? If Shaeonanra continues to exist without memories, how can he seek to avoid damnation? Is there something else, some essential Shaeonanra-ness that survives in the empty soul?
Also, does it strike anybody as significant that Mimara asks her question regarding soul trapping in the way she does? “But isn't soul trapping an ancient art?”
Also, do we have the Inchoroi’s name for themselves? Iyisku? Or is this just a term of reverence the Consult uses? Can anybody recall if it shows up anywhere else?
Yes I think he was literal, or at least as literal as one can be when describing something intangible like a soul. However I feel like there was more to the description of this than you think. Though the way wathi dolls are made removes memories and personality, and is an ancient art, the way Shae came to be is something else entirely. I believe the descriptions all point to the fact that it was have taken a tremendous effort, and lots experimentation of course, in order to rip a soul such that the memories and intellect where maintained. This is the mystery of the consult. That they could survive separately from their original bodies, half their soul being tortured in the outside, while keeping a (almost) sane portion of the soul intact on Earwa.
This is what makes Shae and the consult dangerous. If they found out a way to preserve soul and intellect indefinatly, without the compounding complications of time that the nonmen experience, then they would be far from nearly defeated. In fact, quite the opposite, the passing of time would only make them grow stronger. Perhaps they could even transfer their soul into multiple bodies simultaneously, making an army of warrior magi controlled by one intellect. Or, considering the issues surrounding the gods ineptitude of various things, make an army of intellects with partial souls, therefore partially (or fully) concealing them from the gods.
On the Inchori, I don't have my copy of TTT with me, but it might be a good place to check if you haven't already.
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Edit
Madness:
A few things. First of all, though I don't know much about genealogy, I have heard that in Iceland, before you marry someone you must undergo a test or two to determine if you are actually related to the person you wish to marry. Though I have no way of knowing the validity of this, it brings up a question about the dunyain. How many of them did they start with? I'd imagine that regardless of size, an enclosed population with a limited gene pool would have trouble surviving without extensive genealogical records. They would be used to prevent or limit incestual relationships, as well as prevent and limiting bad recessive traits from matching up and crippling their population (though they cannot 'breed' without passing the thousand thousand halls test, so this may not be important).
It would also depend on who the Dunyain actually are. If they have some kind of bigger sociopolitical purpose then I could see the possibility of the importance of such records. Like if they are trying to breed specific traits in order to make them a genetic match to nonmen (as some believe) then it would be imperative.
If the Dunyain are simply a cult of quasi-religious fanatics who simply want to attain the Absolute, then perhaps genealogy would not be important.
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lockesnow
First, out of curiosity,who is the over king? Was he in the appendix or something?
Anyway, Shae a self moving soul? Can you tell me why you think so and were the text pointed you in this direction?
I've no idea who the over king is, Protathis' works all have enigmatic or idiomatic titles.
As for what got me to Shaeonanra being a self-moving soul, several things.
This comes first, to me the language here suggests that Shaeonanra's soul is traveling through a circle of the ten larvae, that he moves from one body to the other in closed loop. like electric current, but much slower, flowing around and around the circuit.QuoteLaughter, thin and eerie, passed through the wretches, like the lash through the whip, one rising from the trailing of another.
Later Akka has three conflicting thoughts, he thinks that Shae caught his soul in a net of the wretches fractured souls, but first he thinks of a path deflected, and finally he thinks of a circle, the most perfect conserving form. The use of conserving makes me think that the way to keep his soul from falling outside was to bend (deflect) the linear path of the soul--from inward to outside--into a circle that stays completely inward so that the soul is conserved.
In a sense this is geometric next step of some of the basic maths we see Shaeonanra use in the false sun. There Shaeonanra used his Math-Thesis point to disprove the space-filling curve calculus of the Golgotteranth Glamour. That Math-Thesis point was a representation of a single, one dimensional point. Next step, a line described by two points. I would postulate that the path of a soul is described by two points from alpha to omega. Next step after mathematically figuring out how to describe a soul is to define a circle as a point (center) plus a line. If you have a protractor, and set your center by drawing a 'straight' line you wind up with a circle--so perhaps Shaeonanra has combined his mathematical understanding of a perfect point, with the understanding of how to draw a soul's path with two perfect points and from this he has devised a circle. Perhaps Shaeonanra can split souls with incredible perfection by using mathesis points on a soul the way that the mathesis point was used on the glamour--could not a soul be a space filling curve itself?QuoteHe described a hate-rotted soul, forever falling into hell, forever deflected by ancient and arcane magicks, caught in the sackcloth of souls too near death to resist his clutching tumble, too devoid of animating passion.If the souls of the wretches are devoid of animating passions perhaps the direction of their path can be deflected: if a soul near death is falling outside, perhaps you can't change the direction to the outside but you can deflect it 36 degrees, so put ten souls near death, each deflecting their path 36 degrees, then have your soul follow the path of each of these wretches (and/or tie their paths together) and your soul follows a perfectly conserved circle.
A pit bent into a circle, the most perfect of the Conserving Forms...
You're constantly falling outside but you're never going there, because you're only following the deflected bit of the path of each soul. Your soul is constantly moving from wretch to wretch along this path, and it's moving because you're willing it. You're a self-moving soul. As I mentioned in my other thread, i think this is a bit of irony on Bakker's part, a completely literal self-moving soul. It's completely different from the pure theory, elegant self-moving soul metaphor of the Dunyain, who try for an abstract, probably unachievable perfection--but then communism in practice is completely different from the pure theory of communism. When theory becomes practice its often ugly and messy--hence I think this is a bit of a joke. Shae has achieved success at moving his soul himself, and it is absolutely nothing like what the Dunyain conceive.
And I feel like there's a nod to this in Akka's final thought:QuoteHe sat rigid, his breath pinched by the sense of things converging...The dunyain want to come before what comes before what comes before what comes before what comes before. Seems fairly circular to me, they're kinda going after a circle end game aren't they?
Origin to ending.
What came after to what came before.
That all seems a strong and viable theory, Locke!
Heh - That is a pretty great theory. If it's not true, I bet you that Bakker himself would find it to be a hilarious idea...that Shae had inelegantly achieved The Mission.
As impressive as the theory is, my best guess is that there was not actually an intent on Bakker's part to have the irony of Shae and The Consult having achieved the Dunyain mission. I think it's just a really clever observation on your part. But we shall see.
I figured there would be a complex explanation for your theory, bravo. A lot of that makes sense and I can see now where you got that from. But agreeing makes for short conversations and fewer replies, so here goes:
Based on that definition of 'self-moving' soul I think that Shae is indeed as you say. However, like you kinda mentioned, this isn't really the same thing as what we in the bakkerverse have to think of when we hear the phrase. Shae, it would seem, has eluded death in one way or another, but he has not attained The Absolute. The dunyain definition of a self moving soul and yours above dont match up for me. Though the example of communism I find agreeable, I still think its somehow a different situation.
If you say, for example, that Shae is an immortal, self perpetuating soul, I would probably readily agree. But calling him self-moving is too confusing for me.
Just for fun: a bit more on the circle thing. Why stop at a circle, which requires multiple bodies to deflect his soul to? Why not go further and create a Mobius Strip. That way he could ride his own soul in a closed loop with only one surface, forever turning upon himself, forever changing the vector direction of his soul without crossing over any boundary to the outside. Keeping himself suspended in Earwa while maintaining his evasion of the outside. Though I haven't the faintest idea of how that would make it better than a circle or how it would be represented, but I thought the idea funny.
One more thin, your description of "falling without going" was how orbit was original explained to me as a child. Basically when you orbit something you are falling towards the object, but you keep missing, and therefore continuously fall without ever getting any closer. This also helps to explain the whole 'no gravity while falling' thing which is can be a rather abstract thing to explain. With that, its like Shae has created a center to orbit around, though in this case he is orbiting the outside, forever falling but never getting any closer to actually going 'into' the outside. I'm stopping here before I confuse myself further.
Circle end game question:
I thought the dunyain's basic principle was that what comes before determines what comes after, and what comes after cannot effect what comes before. This paints the picture of time being a vector rather than a circle, and the dunyain want to find the origin of that vector in order to free themselves from the chain. Though I believe we 'know' that this is an over simplification of the problem, a first approximation if you will. The world is not shut, and after may somehow effect before (mengedda plains among other instances). Kell himself postulated that time may loop upon itself, perhaps this is what happens at a topos. Though I do vaguely remember some discourse on the subject, perhaps from the text, where a circular chain of before and after was discussed, and a The Absolute being a soul that has risen above this chain. Can't remember though.
Could the soul-splitting / movement through separate carriers in a specific spiritual-geometric pattern be related to the No-God, perhaps as some kind of pre-cursor/prototype for how that comes into existence? The thing that brought this to mind was the speaking through the corpses, which is pretty similar to the N-G speaking through the Sranc (though admittedly the corpses are speaking one by one, the Sranc all at once). We know from The False Sun that the N-G is already very much in Shae's mind a while back , but is he the one providing the technical know-how to actually create this entity?
Not a bad theory Church.
Perhaps the no-god projects his soul into all the sranc that are under his control. Thus controlling the gibbering multitudes like appendages of his own body. We dont know why the sranc follow the no god, how they are controlled, and (correct me if im wrong) we have no evidence as to whether or not sranc have souls. If they don't, well, it would make the whole process even simpler to 'possess' or somehow implant the no-god's 'soul' into them all, making them do his bidding though maintaining enough 'intellect' to rape and pillage when not being directly controlled.
Just thinking out loud here, but could...Quote from: Churchthe soul-splitting / movement through separate carriers
...be the same principle in which Seswatha is cycling part of his consciousness/his memories through the Mandate? Could he be using the same principle to either keep the memory of the First Apocalypse alive, or even more perversely, himself? I'm not sure how I feel about that last bit. That would make him seem to be in league with the Consult.
on westeros I postulated that Seswatha's heart is in fact Nau Cayuti's heart and that it was recovered from the carapace of the No God after the NG was destroyed. In a sense NC's heart could be the heart of the NoGod, or one of them at least.
Here's a thought playing off of that, and the above thought of TonyP.
What if the Mandate, by preserving Seswatha's heart, have kept the No God alive, that this one piece of the No God they have, and have preserved, is what makes the Second Apocalypse possible.
Is Seswatha's Heart equivalent to the One Ring?
Quote from: lockesnowHere's a thought playing off of that, and the above thought of TonyP.
What if the Mandate, by preserving Seswatha's heart, have kept the No God alive, that this one piece of the No God they have, and have preserved, is what makes the Second Apocalypse possible.
Is Seswatha's Heart equivalent to the One Ring?
If this were possibly true, wouldn't we need to assume that The Consult was well-aware of this?
I don't think it's a bluff on the part of the author or the skin spies that Moe has interrogated that The Consult does indeed believe that it is close to reviving the No-God.
So if The Mandate was somehow playing a part with a key object, wouldn't The Consult need to get it back? Kind of like how Seswatha (we're told) needed to get the Heron Spear out of the Ark?
speaking of the heron spear, this excerpt does suggest that the Consult feared the Heron Spear. And note that this is years before the No God is realized.
I'm guessing that Bakker is going to use the NC dreams throughout the book to explain the entire process of how the NG was realized.
Quote from: lockesnowspeaking of the heron spear, this excerpt does suggest that the Consult feared the Heron Spear. And note that this is years before the No God is realized.
Eh?
This is just before the No-God arrives.
http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline
take a look at the date 2140
the no-god is summoned two years later.
I'd say if the timeframe is two years away, that "years away" is a more accurate description than "just before" :D
It's interesting that Shae/Shaur mentions that NC's wife was motivated to forestall her damnation.
Presumably there would be a lot of folks who would actually be rooting for the Consult if they understood what was going on.
Its all about propaganda Triskele. As bakker says, no muslim children are born to christian families, errmmm i mean "no fanim children are born to inrithi households"
The Consult should torch their PR guy.
Quote from: MadnessThe Consult should torch their PR guy.maybe they did, and got a new one, several times, until there were only a few consult left = P
So who thinks that Ishaul is empty and who thinks it has some type of survivor within? As much as I'd love to see a survivor within Isaul, I don't think Bakker will give us that much...
'cmon. one does not simply 'kill' ALL the dunyain
I still think that there's a chance that Saccares is a Dunyain.
I won't be surprised either way, but not only does he learn the metagnostic cants, but he talks like Kellhus in a manipulative way at one point in a way that really seemed like it could have been a subtle hint from Bakker.
Quote"No Schoolmen was as famed as Apperens Saccarees, who had lng stood high among the Empier's Exalt-Ministers. His voice proved a tonic for the Arm of the South's nightly war-councils, for it carried both the authority of the Aspect-Emperor and the promise of tactical acumen."
Pg. 456Quote"Could it be?" Carindusu asked in derision. "Have the fabled Dreams of the First Apocalpse led the illustrious Saccarees astray?"
"Yes," the Mandate Grandmaster replied, his honesty so genuine, his humility so reminiscent of their Lord-and-God, that Carindusu found himself shamed before his peers a third time.
Pg. 460
My bold in both cases.
Also note that on page 491 Saccarees himself destroys the grandmaster of the Vokalati, and is then attacked by "fairly half the Vokalati", who he also presumably destroys. He of course survives this, but what a powerful schoolman to take out half a school by himself unscathed. Perhaps too powerful to be a mere human?
Remember that Akka took on the grandmaster of the Spires and 4 other sorcerers of rank, killing 2 of them, and barely escaping with his life. Not a grandmaster, but its been speculated that Akka is very strong and has been kept in the field for political reasons. He isn't your typical lowly field spy.
Quote from: WilshireAlso note that on page 491 Saccarees himself destroys the grandmaster of the Vokalati, and is then attacked by "fairly half the Vokalati", who he also presumably destroys. He of course survives this, but what a powerful schoolman to take out half a school by himself unscathed.
If I recall correctly his only confirmed kill was the grandmaster. He does survive the attack of most of the Vokalati but then the Mandate get in on the whole infighting buisness. But then he is supposedly a lot more capable then Akka. So one can assume it would take a lot of Anagogic Schoolmen to take him down with certainty.
No not really. There is no hard description of what went on after the death of the grandmaster. Which is why I said presumably. What is said is "And so did the Schools of the Mandate and Vokalati consume each other in a final act of madness".
Though that description is clearly incorrect since on the next page it starts talking about how the Schoolmen are all alone and Saccarees comes down to find Umrapathur's body. Clearly an Anagogic school whos grandmaster was so easily dispatched and who has half of their force focused on a single member of the opposition would not in any way be able to "destroy" the Gnostic Mandate.
There is also no mention of a single other Mandate schoolman helping out Saccarees after he is beset. From the description it would seem that he himself destroyed the Vokalati, though it is possible that he simply just kept singing wards and let the rest of the Mandate obliterate the Vokalati one by one.
And one more thing, you said it would take "a lot of Anagogic Schoolmen". Wouldn't half a school constitute as "a lot"? From TTT the few are called the few for a reason. Half a school is a significant number of the total schoolmen in the world. They did have a lot, perhaps a chorus larger than any in history focused on a single target, and somehow he comes out unscathed? Sure maybe he is just lucky, or maybe he is just that much better than any other schoolmen and yet still just human. Or, perhaps, he is something more.
I'm going to hazard a guess that the Swayali represent the majority of the Ordeal's sorcerous strength at this point. Bakker classically understates episodes, like Wilshire's quote, throughout the series, which then find themselves front & center in the successive books.
Also, I think its likely that the Dunyain remain in Ishual. It strikes me as a fairly obvious strategy in order to hide themselves from the world further. But I'd guess that Achamian isn't going to find the answers he seeks there...
Plus, from what was hinted in the comments at TPB, Bakker implies that Achamian and Mimara would only be spending the first chapter wrapping up their time at Ishual.
A couple of observations:
1. I don't know why I was surprised to find the Dunyain gone from Ishual. Stupidity, I guess. Given their experience with Moenghus, there is every reason for them to remove themselves from Ishual after sending out Kellhus. Of course, there is the possibility that Kellhus himself somehow went back and exterminated all the remaining Dunyain, but logistically that seems improbable.
2. Why The Second Apocalypse is so great: just look at the discussion provoked by this little tidbit. 5 books in, and yet the central mysteries of the story are still unsolved. And these mysteries MATTER greatly. Their resolution (I think we should all pray for Bakker's health and well being to whichever gods we can find -- just think of the horror! the HORROR! -- if he should get into a car accident before finishing these books! OMG I can't even...) will literally shake the foundation of the world. What other high fantasy book can say the same?
This really goes to the heart of fantasy. One of the genre's early practitioners, H.P. Lovecraft, lamented that in this modern age "wonder left the mind of man." Well, these books certainly bring us wonder and horror like no other.
Also, lockesnow -- love, love, love your "math thesis." I've always suspected that calculus is the tool of the devil, invented to torment young students. Now I know for sure. :lol:
I somehow missed Triscuit's contributions from a a few weeks ago:QuoteIf this were possibly true, wouldn't we need to assume that The Consult was well-aware of this?
I don't think it's a bluff on the part of the author or the skin spies that Moe has interrogated that The Consult does indeed believe that it is close to reviving the No-God.
So if The Mandate was somehow playing a part with a key object, wouldn't The Consult need to get it back? Kind of like how Seswatha (we're told) needed to get the Heron Spear out of the Ark?
What if the Consult is fooled as well as everyone else. Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead. If the truth of the heart is something Seswatha kept to himself and he created this elaborate tale of how his heart was to be used/preserved he can hide the heart in plain sight, with the Mandate and the Consult none-the-wiser. Particularly if no one outside the Mandate is aware of the Heart. Considering how well Seswatha resists all torture of Achamian, I'd think the Heart is tremendous secret, otherwise the Scarlet Spires or rival schools would have tried to steal the heart to gain the gnosis. Presumably Nautzera was replaced after the Grasping. This then begs the question of why Nautzera didn't destroy the heart, as that would be the most effective way of destroying the Mandate, perhaps even after replacing Nautzera, the Consult was somewhat clueless of the significance of the ceremony called the Grasping?Quote from: TriskeleIt's interesting that Shae/Shaur mentions that NC's wife was motivated to forestall her damnation.
Ahem, that'd be pretty huge motivation for Esmenet as well, if she betrays Kellhus, the Ordeal and all Mankind in an attempt to forestall her own damnation, perhaps this is why the Narindar is next to her, she plays the role of Ieva.
Quote from: WilshireSure maybe he is just lucky, or maybe he is just that much better than any other schoolmen and yet still just human. Or, perhaps, he is something more.
But the fact that he was the first to master the third innuteral already makes him a better sorcerer than everyone else. Him surviving the attack of a great number of inferior schoolmen in rather murky circumstances adds nothing to the argument. We don't know how the 3rd adds to fighting ability and we don't know how powerful the Vokalati are. And since the whole confrontation was fought under a fog of lyricism we don't really know how many of them could focus on his wards at any one time.
Now suppose the new Mandate curriculum isn't just that awesome and he is indeed Dunyani. Where does he come from? The obvious answer is Ishual. Which leads me to two conclusions:
Kellhus was the one who destroyed it.
He probably brought along more than one.
Thats the entire argument really. He mastered the third innuteral and who else did? Serwa. Half dunyain, and only able to finish a couple of the teleportation cants before taking a nap. Though that could be a farce of some kind, its not important. The fact is that throughout history there was only rumors of 1 being able to do the third innuteral, and that just a rumor. Then Kell comes along and figures that shit out right away. Then his daughter.
Then some random dude comes along and says, oh hey yeah I bet I could do that. BOOM, innuterals. If it only took, say 20 years, to master the third innuteral, there would be more meta-gnostic users.
Also, surviving against many other schoolmen does add something to the argument and shouldn't just be dismissed out of hand. This, because very few other can do that. And, like I said above, thats the whole argument. Some guy shows up at random and can destroy/fend-off another school in the midst of a huge battle is no small feat.
Anyway, I can't tell if you are actually disagreeing for a purpose or just for the sake of the argument, since your last few lines agree, I think, with the point of it all: that there could be Dunyain walking among the other soldiers in the Ordeal, and the new Mandate prodigy could be one of them.
Quote from: lockesnowAhem, that'd be pretty huge motivation for Esmenet as well, if she betrays Kellhus, the Ordeal and all Mankind in an attempt to forestall her own damnation, perhaps this is why the Narindar is next to her, she plays the role of Ieva.
Completely agree. The parallels are all there.
Now we just need a persuasive rape alien and some strong drugs (i guess the inverse fire could work too).
Quote from: WilshireAnyway, I can't tell if you are actually disagreeing for a purpose or just for the sake of the argument, since your last few lines agree, I think, with the point of it all: that there could be Dunyain walking among the other soldiers in the Ordeal, and the new Mandate prodigy could be one of them.
A bit of both really. I just felt you double counted your arguments. He is the most powerful Mandate Schoolman to ever walk the earth and reminds people of the Aspectemperor. Now the last part isn't all that unlikely even for baseline humans. Following after Jesus and all.
The first point is very unlikely indeed. For several thousand years no one managed to figure out how to use the 3rd inutteral. And here he is. On the other hand for two thousand years nobody got the Gnosis to work without being taught.
I'm leaning toward Dunyain, but I can't discount the possibility of him being a red herring. Or maybe a Ciphrang.
Quote from: Truth ShinesOf course, there is the possibility that Kellhus himself somehow went back and exterminated all the remaining Dunyain, but logistically that seems improbable.Why? Seems maybe a couple of hours work?
Quote from: Callan S.Once he gets there, sure. But I seem to recall Kellhus being utterly exhausted just "translocating" his way back to Momemn from Sakarpus. To go from Momemn to Ishual then back? Possible, but I think improbable.Quote from: Truth ShinesOf course, there is the possibility that Kellhus himself somehow went back and exterminated all the remaining Dunyain, but logistically that seems improbable.Why? Seems maybe a couple of hours work?
Another question: just how could Achamian dream of being Nau-Cayuti? Any conjectures?
Wilshire - You summed up my thoughts on Saccarees very well.
From your two quotes on the previous page, I would say that the first isn't much by itself, but it's the second that makes it intriguing.
And w/ the inutterals, to play devil's advocate, I suspect that if Kellhus were teaching, it might be more likely for others to learn them. But then again at the same time we're to believe that Saccarees is either the 3rd or 4th person in history to pull it off.
The previous three were a Nonman Quyan savant, Kellhus, and Serwa, a Gnostic witch w/half Dunyain blood. When you look at those three, it seems more difficult to believe that Saccarees is just some special guy within the Mandate and that's it. Not impossible, but I don't think we can dismiss the possibility that he's Dunyain.
Another thing I'm really anxious to learn about in the next book: If Kellhus destroyed Ishual and if he took a few Dunyain with him (like Saccarees), how did he decide which to take? Two big "ifs" I realize.
Quote from: Truth ShinesI'm rather thinking the fatigue is a ruse.Quote from: Callan S.Once he gets there, sure. But I seem to recall Kellhus being utterly exhausted just "translocating" his way back to Momemn from Sakarpus. To go from Momemn to Ishual then back? Possible, but I think improbable.Quote from: Truth ShinesOf course, there is the possibility that Kellhus himself somehow went back and exterminated all the remaining Dunyain, but logistically that seems improbable.Why? Seems maybe a couple of hours work?QuoteAnother question: just how could Achamian dream of being Nau-Cayuti? Any conjectures?The unfun answer is that Kellhus programmed it in.
Or the whole prophet of the past thing is actually true kinda like the judging eye is true. Somehow what souls go through goes on record?
Another thought on Saccarees:
His surname is Apperens, right?
It is reminiscent of "apparent" but also "apprendre" which is French for "to learn," and that is also related to "apprehension" in English. If Kellhus was going to slap a name on a Dunyain, that seems like a pretty good one.
regarding the inutteral thing, Achamian was able to "hand" an inutteral off to Mimara with the "ball of light" in TJE, why couldn't Kellhus just "hand" a bundled set of inutteral to Saccares since Saccares is leading the Mandate. This would be a great way to create such a leader within the Mandate, and because they're utterly dependent on Kellhus having given them the inutteral, ensures both the person's secrecy and loyalty.
In other words, Saccares may not know how to make multiple inutterals work, but Kellhus gave him a shortcut that allows him to use them. If he kept the spell active but dormant ala latent wards, he would always have it to hand, even if he didn't really know how to build one himself.
Quote from: Truth ShinesQuote from: Callan S.Once he gets there, sure. But I seem to recall Kellhus being utterly exhausted just "translocating" his way back to Momemn from Sakarpus. To go from Momemn to Ishual then back? Possible, but I think improbable.Quote from: Truth ShinesOf course, there is the possibility that Kellhus himself somehow went back and exterminated all the remaining Dunyain, but logistically that seems improbable.Why? Seems maybe a couple of hours work?
Another question: just how could Achamian dream of being Nau-Cayuti? Any conjectures?
Go to a place near Ishual, take a nap, maybe a small vacation (why not? hes the god damn emperor, he earned it). Blow up Ishual with some seriously awesome meta-gnosis badassery, take nap number 2. Skip like a stone back to esmi's bed chambers, get some more "work" done (if ya know what i mean). Take 3rd nap.
A few days out of the Empire, who gives a crap? I guarantee no one has the authority to call him out for missing a few meetings.
Don't forget that he also appeared on the battlefield discussed above, to rescue the surviving schoolmen. He warps in with his ball of blue light and immediately starts blowing up shit. Ground exploding and all that.
Or when he shows up at the end of TTT and wipes out the Cishi.
How many jumps away was the army? More than one sure, like in TTT, but not as many as half way around the world (like earlier when he makes that Yatwer lady piss herself).Quote from: lockesnowregarding the inutteral thing, Achamian was able to "hand" an inutteral off to Mimara with the "ball of light"This was in Cil right? He gave here the ball of light and told her to run back to the rest of the skin eaters.
He didn't really give her the innuteral, she just held onto the spell. She still has no mark, so she did not actually do any magic. And was she able to control it (turn it off) or was Akka the one who still really had control over it? I cannot recall this.
Also, remember throughout Cil how much Akka whined about maintaining magic for long periods of time.
I can't imagine that being handed a spell way outside of your grasp would be as easy as ignoring a bar of heaven, even for the grandmaster. Then you suggest to compound this with the latent use of meta-gnostic spells. It wouldnt be like flipping a switch on and off with some spiffy wards. He would certainly be under some extreme internal stress if nothing else, which would probably make him irritable and not so grand and wonderful
Amidst all the speculations and half conjectures (our degraded version of the Probability Trance ;) ), I just like to bring the discussion back to the original post for a moment -- it's a marvel just how well-written that little piece of nightmare is.
Just picture it in your mind, if you dare:
A naked young man, kneeling, arms tied in chains stretching behind him, straining upward with all his might, mouth open and roaring with his face reaching upward; meanwhile, ten half-rotted leering sacks of flesh surrounding him, cackling, murmuring, their half-crazed voices endlessly looping around the circle; all the while, a golden disc carries them ever upward toward some unknownable hell...
It's difficult not to sound like a fanboy. But man how I love this stuff!
+1 :ugeek: :D
I do not have set goatee.
Its hard not to digress, but I do suppose most of the discussions should be done elsewhere. Thanks madness for making new threads for us = ). Keeps the debates separated and more easily followed.
does anyone know when this is coming out i cant wait any longer!
My hopes are January, 2013, until I hear otherwise and assuming I survive the Mayan Apocalypse (which is misdated and cyclical regardless ;)).
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Saubon123.
Quote from: MadnessMayan Apocalypse (which is misdated and cyclical regardless ;)).
Oh?, my understanding was it's the 21st of December 2012.
Why do you say it’s misdated Madness?
Lol, apologies. I meant my hopes are that TUC will come out January, 2013.
The current estimate of the Mayan Apocalypse, which is simply one of many calculations, is indeed the 21st of December this year. It's just that the historical evidence and concurrent time measurements aren't ample for that specific date. More likely, the near-date of sociologically motivated phenomenon - something we embody as a social or cultural body.
Madness, January 2013 would be cool but since he has not yet finished writing the book i think it is out of the question.WLW took about 10 months between finishing the book and actual publication so IF he is over until December i think we will have it in our hands around fall 2013.
Yeah - Sadly, I think the absolute best-case-scenario is something like June of 2013 with later in the year more likely. There are few books I've ever looked forward to so much. The stakes are pretty damn high. I've been captivated by this series, but so much has remained unrevealed, and so much is likely to finally be revealed in TUC.
Honestly, I just put a date on it and shove it in a box in the back of my mind. I got enough books that aren't Bakker to read, not to mention the time I spend rereading and exploring his.
First half of the new year, I think, is par for the course. I bought TJE Janurary '09 and WLW February '11.
We don't have any idea where Bakker is really at with the "finished product of the book." One comment elicited a word count on TPB over the past couple weeks but who knows, right?!
But yes, I share in the excitement... Bakker's books usually make my skull feel ripped open :D.
Hi everyone. English is not my language so I hope you'll forget any mistake. I think this novel is a masterpiece, but when I come to recommend it, many people say it's too difficult/complicated. It's frustrating not being able to talk about it with others. So I ended up here.
Anyway, for this topic is about the Akka Chapter in TUC, I too was overwhelmed by the image of the wheel of old amputees speaking the voice of Shae (this short form makes me think about some whore and some dwarf). This Scott keeps on surprising us with awesome ideas.
I think that althoug Ishual is destroyed, the thousand thousand halls is another story. Maybe there are dunyains left in there. More likely there are not, but who knows?
The idea someone mentioned about Moenghus destroying Ishual after Kellhus departure seems unlikely to me, since Moenghus rank as Cishaurim and his activity (Skauras messenger, etc.) in that time must have been a complication when he planned the "Ishual trip".
The "How is he doing?" was hilarious; remind me, not whitout nostalgy, of that far far time when all was laughter between Achamian, Kellhus, Esmenet and Xinemus... when we all were so innocent, listening to the tales by the fire, and jokes like "the water is cold" ... "and deep", or the "eyes like a monkey's ass" of one of Xin soldiers.
Welcome, Feanor.
What language did you read PON in originally?
No no, I did read it in english. For two reasons: in general, I prefer to read novels in its original language (when it´s english; I don´t know that much of other languages). And in particular, Prince of Nothing translation to spanish is very bad. And there is no translation of The Aspect Emperor at all, only PoN.
I read twice each book in english (the first five, I mean), and then I get the spanish edition of the first three and read them once.
Italic parts on TWLW though... I read them several times (same as the SEAL rising from the screwdriver pit at the end of TJE (sea mammal or sigil?). This Bakker really makes me squeeze my brains...
Very cool. Too bad that the Aspect-Emperor isn't in spanish.
Sigil in the Judging Eye.
Yes, we are all wondering about the italics in TWLW :).
Thanks; that mammal question was a joke, but how could you know?
Got me lol. Damned internet ;).
My fault, didn't write "haha".
Yeah, the seal question had troubled me for some time, but the sigil seemed far more likely. Perhaps more controversial: Bashrags are supposed to have additional faces on cheeks. Which cheeks? ;)
Quote from: MadnessI'm going to hazard a guess that the Swayali represent the majority of the Ordeal's sorcerous strength at this point. Bakker classically understates episodes, like Wilshire's quote, throughout the series, which then find themselves front & center in the successive books.
Also, I think its likely that the Dunyain remain in Ishual. It strikes me as a fairly obvious strategy in order to hide themselves from the world further. But I'd guess that Achamian isn't going to find the answers he seeks there...
Plus, from what was hinted in the comments at TPB, Bakker implies that Achamian and Mimara would only be spending the first chapter wrapping up their time at Ishual.
Since I didn't know where else to post this: there is a passage in WLW, the first large battle, when Kayutas sends out the Witches. A description of how many.
"At her brother's command, Serwa deployued her witches behind the common line, holding forty-three of the most senior and accomplished in reserve" ... "They climbed out beyond the common line, a second chevron, like a mathematical apparition of the first, two hundred lights flung into the blackness of the plain" ... "Bars of heaven, lines of blinding white rising from the wasted ground to shrouded sky, some two hundred of them"
Anyone recall how many Mandate there were during the first trillogy? I know it was explicitly stated how many Spires schoolmen there were, but I cannot remember if they said exacly how many Mandate. I thought it was around 100 but I could be wrong.
If Kellhus could train a school from 0 to 200 gnostic users during his reign, I wonder how large he could have grown the Mandate in that time? Especially considering that the Sisterhood and the Mandate would not be competing for members.
"And so the number of the Kites flown by the Army of the South was doubled. More than three hundred sorcerers of rank and some two hundred more understudies now strode through the sepulchral clouds above the Horde" (WLW, p706).
This includes the Schools of Vokalati and the Mandate.
Also the majority of the Vokalati and Mandate sorcerers survived the last battle when Kellhus came to save them. also thats 300 sorcerers of rank and 200 understudies for the Vokalati and Mandate alone. Dont forget that the Scarlet Spires, The imperial Saik, and the Mysunsai march with the Swayal sisterhood. and seeing how they are a new school to the three seas they are probably only a small fraction of the total sorcerers in the Great Ordeal
Saubon123, my impetuous friend, ambiguity and interpretation are not on your side:
"Not knowing what happened several Vokalati assailed Saccarees - then several more, until fairly half the Vokalati found themselves attacking for no reason save that their brothers had so turned in violence. And so did the Schools of Mandate and Vokalati consume each other in a final act of madness" (WLW, p763).
Who are the Vokalati, again?
Quote from: Saubon123Also the majority of the Vokalati and Mandate sorcerers survived the last battle when Kellhus came to save them. also thats 300 sorcerers of rank and 200 understudies for the Vokalati and Mandate alone. Dont forget that the Scarlet Spires, The imperial Saik, and the Mysunsai march with the Swayal sisterhood. and seeing how they are a new school to the three seas they are probably only a small fraction of the total sorcerers in the Great Ordeal
The majority of the Vokalati were slaughtered by the Mandate after the Vokalati headmaster when mad. It remains to be seen how many of the Mandate survived the battle, but the text states that the Vokalati and the Mandate schools destroyed each other.
The SS is probably less prominent after the first trilogy, most of them died fighting the Cish.
The sisterhood has about 250 witches by Serwa's description.
Sorry i should have said the majority of the mandate survived cause they clearly were stronger than the vokalati. but still all i was saying was that sorcerers survived the last battle :p jeez dont have to be so mean
Came off a bit strong I guess, sorry about that, the internet :P.
Callan S.: The Vokalati, as all the schools mentioned, is just one of the major schools of the three seas. Though I do not remember specifically who they are, I believe they are just another school.
The Vokalati is a major anagogic(sp) School based in Nilnamesh.It is strange that it was never mentioned in the first trilogy not even in the Glossary,so it must be new or has changed its name.But yes i guess its almost completely obliterated now.
I supposed the world was too preoccupied with the Cish to care about the Vokalati.
"With them marched the Vokalati, the feared Sun-wailers of Nilnamesh, under the Grandmaster known only as Carindusu, notorious for his insolence in the presence of the Aspect-Emperor and for his rumoured theft of the Mandate Gnosis" (WLW, p85).
That is something I've always been curious about. My italics. And yes, they're never mentioned in the PON but neither are lots of things... striptease ;).
I don't think that we can make any certain assumptions in one direction or the other about to what degree the Mandate and Vokalati "destroyed" one another. The one passage could be read as total destruction, but ti's clearly not that as Kellhus arrives and bids them follow him home, so plenty are left.
I love Bakker's writing w/ the three shamings of Carindusu and how the final shaming is when Carindusu thinks he has Saccarees humiliated but then he himself is subsequently humiliated by Saccarees saying "Yes. The world has never seen the its like" or whatever the quote is.
Quote from: TriskeleI don't think that we can make any certain assumptions in one direction or the other about to what degree the Mandate and Vokalati "destroyed" one another. The one passage could be read as total destruction, but ti's clearly not that as Kellhus arrives and bids them follow him home, so plenty are left.I agree. Misinformation at best, there are certainly schoolmen yet alive, or else none would have returned with Kell.
I love Bakker's writing w/ the three shamings of Carindusu and how the final shaming is when Carindusu thinks he has Saccarees humiliated but then he himself is subsequently humiliated by Saccarees saying "Yes. The world has never seen the its like" or whatever the quote is.
And yeah, that section was great. Really powerful.
Anyone remember the last chapter of The Warrior-Prophet? The Consult have been hunting the Dunyain for twenty years. Ishual could have been destroyed by them, as well as Kelhous.
As for Carindusu, he may have been rumoured to have stolen the Gnosis but the evidence seems to be otherwise. Not that it was ever likely. Even the witches of the Compact bind themselves to Seswatha's heart. We've seen how hard it is to prize that knowledge loose.
Quote from: Cynical CatAs for Carindusu, he may have been rumoured to have stolen the Gnosis but the evidence seems to be otherwise. Not that it was ever likely. Even the witches of the Compact bind themselves to Seswatha's heart. We've seen how hard it is to prize that knowledge loose.
I do wonder about what the author is trying to say w/ the "rumored theft of the Mandate gnosis" line.
Saccarees kicks his ass pretty hard it sounds like once they go head-to-head.
He ends up taking on half the Vokalati before his Mandate brethren step in. Plus, I think that the Mandate would recognize if any of the Vokalati actually used the Gnosis, rather than the Anagogis.
their marks differ like the difference between a blade and a bludgeon
I have this feeling that TUC will be full of information, but by the end not everything will be clear. Bakker will probably hide enough information throughout the novel to piece together whatever wasn't said, but I feel like there will still be need for us here at TSA forum. Or at least maybe thats my hope.
When the story is done,
and haters be hatin'
We'll still be here,
Extrapolatin'
I have two questions which are unrelated
1. does anyone know anything about when TUC is coming out?
2. is Girgash a Ketyai or a Satyothi nation?
Quote from: CurethanWhen the story is done,8-)
and haters be hatin'
We'll still be here,
Extrapolatin'
sorry Saubon123 i have no idea about either of your questions.
Yeah - We do not have anything close to an official release date to my knowledge, so Summer of 2013 is probably an absolute best-case-scenario, sadly.
I think 2014 is more likely at this point.
When I spoke with Bakker a few weeks ago he said that it was 'done'. Unfortunately he was talking about the actual writing of the book. None of the editing/reviewing/publishing process was even started (from what I could tell). I know nothing about that kind of thing, but even if Bakker put his finished copy of the book onto the editors desk, say 3 weeks ago right after we talked, I would doubt it would be done by March. Summer 2013 is probably an optimistic guess.
Anyone with more experience in the book publishing world should say something more meaningful to give us a better answer.
Also, even though the book was 'done' that doesn't mean he isn't spending a few more months re-writing (which he has admitted to doing a whole lot of already).
Work week is crazy.
Saubon, my guess is that Girgash is a Ketyai nation. TTT Glossary highlights Girgash as the only Fanim nation besides Kian in the Three Seas and it explicitly lists Nilnamesh as Ketyai - it doesn't mark Girgash's ethnicity but neither is it explicit for other nations. Also, the Satyothi seem to have a particular impact on the story whenever one shows up. Zeum is like two thirds the size of the Three Seas :shock: !
Nice rap, Curethan. Hope I can get back to freestylin' with the forum sharpish. Wilshire, I don't see us giving this up anytime soon, do you ;)?. Aside, even if this wasn't just good ol' fun and even if I didn't enjoy academics, many of us are probably in positions to publish papers (and have, in some cases) on Bakker's writing. Whatever statistic that suggests, minute or otherwise, will peak only after Bakker finishes the Second Apocalypse.
Plus... Measure is unceasing.
Measure, the slave replies, is not something accomplished and then forgotten. Old measure is merely grounds for the new.
Quote from: WilshireMeasure, the slave replies, is not something accomplished and then forgotten. Old measure is merely grounds for the new.
I've reread that scene a few times since having been reminded of where it was. Of all Kellhus' great acts of Dunyainness, I'm not sure I like any more than the way Moenghus fucks w/ Siotha.
Yeah, thats why I included that quote in the wikiquote project. Such a great scene.
I noticed the Ieva betrayed NC to save her soul. Was she a sorceress? It kind of sounds that way.
I assumed Ieva was a pissed off wife, simply being one of the normal people, who accessing all available information, just supports the Consult because of the inevitable likelihood of their victory.
Cheers for diving in, Blackstone :).
Quote from: Madness"With them marched the Vokalati, the feared Sun-wailers of Nilnamesh, under the Grandmaster known only as Carindusu, notorious for his insolence in the presence of the Aspect-Emperor and for his rumoured theft of the Mandate Gnosis" (WLW, p85).Yeah, you can see that becoming a two birds with one stone thang - insolent (possibly a Conphas level sociopath and unmanipulatable/innefficiently manipulatable). Somehow manipulated to go mad during the battle (subtle poisons/hallucinogens employment, even)
That is something I've always been curious about. My italics. And yes, they're never mentioned in the PON but neither are lots of things... striptease ;).
And bring down the Mandate as well? Well, the Sethwatha homonculous in them makes them kind of fixated/harder to manipulate. Also they remember the past. Without the past, there is less context to have to work within when manipulating.
Possibly leaked Gnosis knowledge to Carindusu for the purposes of the dual elimination as well.
+1... Except the hole where the Swayal Sisterhood has to go through the Grasping in order to have the Gnosis. The "deal" that Kellhus manipulated with the Mandate (which we never get to see :(), depends on him being the only one who isn't safeguarded by Seswatha Within.
Quote from: MadnessExcept the hole where the Swayal Sisterhood has to go through the Grasping in order to have the Gnosis.Unless the Grasping has a lesser effect on women? One could imagine the Dreams being less viscerally 'real' for the Swayali, the difference in sex acting as a sort of constant reminder that the dreamer isn't really Seswatha.
Which would seem to me to be a more plausible reason for Kellhus creating a school of witches than some genuine interest in sexual equality.
Thats a good thought but I don't know if that would really have a significant effect as far as control goes. I think a new school would simply be easier to manipulate since they have less history. Or they know less of their history so therefore more darkness for Kell to seize.
Reason for making it all female would make a nice neat line for the Mandate to never cross, keeping them out of his divine hair.
I think the all female part is a nod to his notion that exploitative systems might simply hire women not out of equality, but because its more cheap labour. Unless the idea is equal exploitation, in which case it's equality, I guess.
Shit! Slipped into some P(olitics)! Summon the dragons! Seal the tear in the world!
Again this woman thing... I swear, it's coming up big. I've said for years that Bakker's been holding onto his "Woman" & "Not Sexist" cards...
+1 Gender Dreams, Duskweaver.
It's already been suggested that the Anasurimbor in the Celmomian Prophecy might be Mimara rather than Kellhus, right?
Believe so but +1. I'm not chasing you around the board ;), I have to get to work. Meld with you all in the future.
Like Moe and Kell have both said, there have always been Anasurimbor in Earwa. Also, the prophesy says that an Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world , and the Seswatha's end will be the end of the world.
I think people often forget what is actually said by Celmomas. He said nothing about saving the world or how it will end or why. Just that the end is nigh when the Anasurimbor return, and that is something that has certainly happened. The specific Anasurimbor that is the Harbinger really doesn't matter much.
What is far more important, at least in the prophesy, is Seswatha. Something like "the world will not end with me, that burden lies with you" (more of a paraphrase from my memory than a quote really, but thats the gist of the last line I believe). This is probably what led Seswatha to make the Mandate in the first place and make them all go through the Grasping ceremony. Maybe this preserves more than memories? Could but that Seswatha is actually alive in some more meaningful way, as long as his heart and memories remain intact. The end of the Mandate, and no the Sisterhood, would more clearly mean that the world is lost.
Also considering that Kellhus never went through said ceremony , it is possible that he did not want to tie his destiny/fate into Seswatha's. Could be some support for theory that Kell is the next no-god or that he wants to end the world in some way or another. If he was preserving the old Grandmaster in some way, then he would be saving the world from ending by simply being alive. That whole 'needing to kill yourself to win' thing probably didn't go over so well with him in the initial phase of his planing.
I don't like or agree with that theory, but I suppose it deserves mention.
I feel like founding the Swayali Sisterhood is simply Kellhus's pragmatism at work. He won't leave the Few unyolked, whatever their gender happens to be.
Making them a seperate unit rather than a part of an existing school is probably just a case of it being easier to make the sorcerer's accept a new competing body than changes to their own organizations.
+1, Walter. I agree that is likely Kellhus' motivation & the breakdown of distinction...
However, the author has intent. By creating the "Nuns," Bakker added another element by which he could explore power relations and the distinction of sexual roles between men and women, neh? Though, of course, I'm hazarding guesses here - Bakker's Intent... truly difficult to apprehend. One Three Pounds is not enough brain to solve TSA :).
Quote from: DuskweaverIt's already been suggested that the Anasurimbor in the Celmomian Prophecy might be Mimara rather than Kellhus, right?
Didn’t the prophecy say “one of my seed will return”?
Mimara is adopted so i cant see how it’s her.
Mimara is adopted, but there could be some not so arbitrary metaphysical consequences of that (I think that is lockesnow's brainchild though). Anyway, "one of my seed will return at the end of the world" yeah, but Mimara holds the title of Anansurimbor, we do not know who her father is, and the guy was dying, maybe he didn't have quite enough time to explain the Harbinger will be an Anansurimbor but will not be directly from his line.
I still can't see that it matters much though. Whoever it is, they are just the Harbinger, nothing more. The end is nigh, but not irreconcilably so. They should just kill all the known Anansurimbor, no more harbinger, no more end of the world right?
Quote from: BorricQuote from: DuskweaverIt's already been suggested that the Anasurimbor in the Celmomian Prophecy might be Mimara rather than Kellhus, right?
Didn’t the prophecy say “one of my seed will return”?
Mimara is adopted so i cant see how it’s her.
Well the bastard at the beginning of TDTCB is not of Celmomas' seed, it's of Celmomas' brother's seed, iirc. So that disqualifies Kellhus as well.
And in a world where everything has a metaphysical component--and particularly and especially where semantic MEANING cuts the world deep--a word like adoption that has a very particular MEANING of making a child not of your loins the same as a child of your loins it stands to reason that metaphysically this will be true.
In other words, we only have physical world genetics on Earth. On Earwa they probably have more malleable metaphysical world genetics as well.
Also, the genre of epic fantasy has a trope that is certainly OBSESSED with Earth genetics, wherein you have a secret farmboy, wherein you can ONLY be a HERO if you have secret earth genetics connecting you to the awesomesauce royal pedigree family. It stands to reason that Bakker might be interested in tweaking and inverting and playing with this genre trope of earth-genetics obsession and undermining it. Bakker would probably love that Mimara could become an Anasurimbor in physical/metaphysical absolutes even if some king didn't cum in her mama by happenstance.
...
Sorweel is Celmomas' true heir?
Though, Achamian says that Kellhus looks just like Celmomas...
that seemed a bit out of left field. Why Sorweel? Because he is the one from the ruined household?
Something in lockesnow's post reminded me that Bakker's said Sorweel is supposed to fit that trope. I +1 the whole Mimara adoption, genetics of the metaphysic idea but regular old earth heredity (Dunyain) seems in perfect order, as well...
Celmomas says one of his seed, neh... The line of Ganrelka's bastard seems the deceiver's line and doesn't fit the bill.
Embracing the random thoughts is, at times, most insightful.
I've always thought that Ganrelka is Celmomas's son. Where is it said to be his brother? I missed this one.
Shit, I may have made this mistake before, iirc.
My impression has always been that Ganrelka was a brother of Celmomas, and I constantly revert to that, but we don't have evidence that precludes him from being the son of Celmomas as well.
We simply know that the text considered him High King, so Celmomas was dead before the prologue of the story, iirc.
by the way, when are we getting the second half of this chapter? Wasn't Larry supposed to get it?
second half... how about the whole book.
Yeah - Where is the rest of this chapter? Want to see Ishual now. Whole book of course would be good like yesterday. I'm just hoping we get it in 2013.
I don't have books handy but I also think Ganrelka (sp) is Cel's brother and not his kid. It would be good if someone could confirm, but I think it's stated somewhere.
QuoteThe end of the Mandate, and no the Sisterhood, would more clearly mean that the world is lost.So the end of the mandate, and Akka still being alive, makes him the only Seswatha destiny holder?
Quote from: TriskeleYeah - Where is the rest of this chapter? Want to see Ishual now. Whole book of course would be good like yesterday. I'm just hoping we get it in 2013.Ganrelka is fifteen years younger than Celmomas which doesn't prove or disprove anything, unless combined with evidence that the younger Nau Cayuti was Celmomas' declared heir.
I don't have books handy but I also think Ganrelka (sp) is Cel's brother and not his kid. It would be good if someone could confirm, but I think it's stated somewhere.
Even that doesn't really prove anything, Ganrelka could still be a secret heir held in reserve, that none knew of, not acknowledged even if he was firstborn. Perhaps Ishual is called Exalted Grotto because its where the kuniuric high kings went to pop their cherries?
Brother or son makes no difference in my book.
They share the same genetics and have a common Anasûrimbor “Seed” to pass along.
"one of my seed" I don't think is a pointer to his actual semen. It is likely just someone in the Anasurimbor family. Brother, son, bastard son. Distant cousin twice removed on his mothers side... as long as the Anasurimbor blood is there is recognizable quantities it shouldnt matter too much.
You can't just discount the possessive "MY" because it is convenient.
One of my seed doesn't refer to Kellhus at all. this presumes NC is in fact Cel's kid and not Ses' kid.
Instead, NC and Ses found NC's cherished concubine, rescued her and took her out of the Ark. NC promptly impregnated her, and Ses hid the child. The child survived the apocalypse, but his/her offspring eventually fell on hard times, offspring became peasantry and a long route down the road, Esmenet was born, last scion of Anasurimbor Celmomas--at least until she gave birth to Mimara.
Pretty sure Cel refers to the prophesied one as 'he'.
+1 lockesnow on Esmenet's line -> Last Scion of Anasurimbor Celmomas.
The Bastard's line is false!
Also, Bakker said he's giving the second half of the chapter - though I'd figure it for another small snippet - to Pat at some point in the future... much closer to the actual release date.
I wait patiently for news... One day riders will come.
Also, my possessive semen... of course it's about Celmomas specific seed. Comon'.
Quote from: lockesnowYou can't just discount the possessive "MY" because it is convenient.
And you can't hold onto it because its convenient either. "My" is no more important than any other word in the sentence, especially alone.
It is simply the most obvious way to describe an Anasurimbor descendent.
How else would would a patriarch see all of the members of his house? All the decedents would be of his seed because he is the big man of the house. He was dying, so he made it real obvious. Anasurimbor is a big word to mumble in your last breath, so he choose "my seed".
wow, that's a stretch. My seed always refers to one's offspring. My line would refer to one's family/heritage.
and he says Anasurimbor after he says my seed, so that shoots down your last breath argument.
Not to pour gas but I believe what the two of you are discussing is of crucial importance.
I've voiced my opinion. It's Bakker, he says seed, dude's got semen all over the book, pretty sure it refers to direct genetic line - however, in an anthro class I'm upgrading from first year I recently relearned that siblings count as your genetic material passing down the line because siblings all include your parent's entire set of dominant and recessive alleles. By those standards, your nieces and nephews are as good as sons or daughters.
So Ganrelka, brother or son, doesn't matter. Obviously, Nau-Cayuti's line is more important because that might be Seswatha's lineage. Then there are the question of adoption, mundane or metaphysical - this would draw in the question of Wilshire's here, I think, are names, titles, the only real metaphysical importance/recognition?
I do think we're onto something with the Last Scion parallel.
Btw, out of curiousity, have you all realized that Mimara is going to die giving birth to a stillborn baby?
or the last live-born baby.
Or even more puzzling a living baby born without a soul. The world's first 'disenchanted' human.
+1 Disenchanted Human... especially, as Wilshire has suggested that discourses on Nonmen as False and Sranc with Souls (though I think that's used as a rhetorical metaphor) kick off the Ishterebinth arc in TUC.
Quote from: lockesnowwow, that's a stretch. My seed always refers to one's offspring. My line would refer to one's family/heritage.
and he says Anasurimbor after he says my seed, so that shoots down your last breath argument.
lol
You've disproved nothing, and it isn't a stretch at all. My seed and my line are about the same. The guy was hallucinating, and bakker likes the whole phallic/semen thing. A very, very minor substitution.
Also, saying it once is easier than twice still, so all arguments stand.
Regardless, what could it possibly matter? Like I already said, it just points to who the Harbinger is. And then? It is pretty clear the end of the world is nigh, so even if it is some other person that isn't Kell or that line it doesn't make much difference.
Of far more importance is the implications of Seswatha's end being the end of the world.
However, who was that nameless face woven into the cloak?You mean - who was that Nonman Kellhus encountered? I don't think it matters, all nonmans are over 2000 years old, all they carry ancient knowledge of these days. Except these who went insane.
Because if not, then we might assume that all the Dunyain are Seswatha's descendants, not Celmomas'.This is correct only under circumstances that Seswatha is Anasurimbor, but books never mention anything like that. Otherwise there is only one way: Kelmomas's wife was Anasurimbor as well. Eowa has their own Targariens?
QuoteHowever, who was that nameless face woven into the cloak?You mean - who was that Nonman Kellhus encountered? I don't think it matters, all nonmans are over 2000 years old, all they carry ancient knowledge of these days. Except these who went insane.
QuoteBecause if not, then we might assume that all the Dunyain are Seswatha's descendants, not Celmomas'.This is correct only under circumstances that Seswatha is Anasurimbor, but books never mention anything like that. Otherwise there is only one way: Kelmomas's wife was Anasurimbor as well. Eowa has their own Targariens?
My current thinking is that the Dunyain are Seswatha's descendants (and that Kellhus knows this thanks to that little chat he had with Akka's inner Seswatha) and that Esmenet (and therefore Mimara) is descended from the true Anasurimbor line. In the PoN books, there are references to Esmenet having quite pale skin, despite being Ketyai, which perhaps suggests she has some Norsirai (and maybe Nonman) blood. We know Mimara reminded Cleric of his wife. And both Esmenet and Mimara are supposedly super-smart for non-Dunyain humans (the given reason for Kellhus choosing Esme to bear his children), also suggesting some influence of Nonman blood. In particular, Mimara has the Nonman talent for making great conceptual leaps in her understanding of the metaphysics of the world.
IMO, any male pronoun used in reference to the Anasurimbor who returns at the End is purely an artefact of the rigidly patriarchal culture of Earwa (both in Seswatha's time and in Kellhus'). I.e. everybody in Earwa who knows of the Celmomian Prophecy would naturally assume it'd be a male descendant. Including Celmomas himself and Seswatha.
But how can be he Seswatcha descendant if he clearly son of Anasurimbor? The Nonman does not just says that he has blood of Anasurimbors', he says that he exactly bears "his face" ie direct descendant on father's line.
Achamian's dreams in The White Luck Warrior explicitly state that Seswatha was carrying on an affair with Anasurimbor Celmomas' wife. Seswatha also seems attached to Nau Cayuti as though he were NC's father.
Nonman can't be mistaken, and Bekker isn't that kind of writer to pull out "piano in bushes" to somehow eliminate the fact he stated before.
Achamian's dreams in The White Luck Warrior explicitly state that Seswatha was carrying on an affair with Anasurimbor Celmomas' wife. Seswatha also seems attached to Nau Cayuti as though he were NC's father.An I mentioned that for this to work, Kelmomas' wife must be Anasurimbor as well. Which implies incest in the family. Was it ever mentioned in the books? I don't doubt that Bekker can easily introduce such thing, it is just usually he does not do that without preparing the ground or putting clues or hints there and there. No deus ex elements.
another possibility is that we do not know Seswatha's heritage (iirc he was an orphan) so he could be the classical fantasy 'hidden heir'."Hidden heir" or, in another words, "Retrospective Continuity", which usually takes place in b-grade literature when author wants to make a sudden twist in the boring plotline or justify some holes. No offense but that is not Bekker.
In support of the hidden heir supposition, Seswatha and Anasurimbor Celmomas are the same age and Celmomas had a twin brother who 'died in infancy.'
We know this actually - Bakker asked a question years ago on Zombie Three-Seas. I wouldn't want to be the person to spoil it for you and it's ulterior to what I actually meant:By all means, spoiler away, I have no issues with spoilers at all and I'm greedy for some information related to books that is not in the books.
When the Nonman tells Kellhus he recognized him as Anasurimbor, he fumbles with a particular face on his cloak. I was wondering who that Anasurimbor was?
The Dunyain Anasurimbor are the offspring of Ganrelka's Bastard.I think I missed where it says so. I thought Kelmomas sent his own son into Ishual, as he was telling to Seswatcha one day?
However, I doubt it. I think Kellhus being Anasurimbor is extremely likely. Though it also likely that he is not the one the prophesy foretold of. He might not be the Harbinger.Yeah, I don't think he is Harbinger and the one that prophecy was about, in fact, I think he will be the one
An I mentioned that for this to work, Kelmomas' wife must be Anasurimbor as well. Which implies incest in the family.
They only have parts of memories and the Erratic only remember tragedy anyway. He could have just thought he looked like an Anasurimbor but that doesn't make it so.
By all means, spoiler away, I have no issues with spoilers at all and I'm greedy for some information related to books that is not in the books.
QuoteThe Dunyain Anasurimbor are the offspring of Ganrelka's Bastard.I think I missed where it says so. I thought Kelmomas sent his own son into Ishual, as he was telling to Seswatcha one day?
I feel that there is a chance that Ganrelka was Cel's first son - born of a teenage daliance and not originally expected to figure in the succession.
Quote from: Tony PFuck me, I gobbled that up. Feeling indigestion setting on as I mull it over.
Thanks to Scott for his preview!
About the Inchoroi:(click to show/hide)
Ed.: I assume this will be checked for spelling errors? I think I found some. Please let Scott know I'd be happy to proof-read TUC... 8-)
Goddamnit when is this book coming ouuuuuttt
Wow, that was a powerfully written dream. It's revelations and and the further questions they spawned made it a bit hard to focus back on Akka and Mimara. Like I'd awoke from a nightmare myself.
Edit> Ok so Ieva was working with the consult and one of NC's last memories before being buried alive was of her "plundering his loins with wild abandon". I'm wondering if the Celmoman prophecy may be a bad thing. I realize that it is highly possible that NC isn't even "of Cel's seed" but perhaps that's a red herring. Or NC's spirit, thinking himself Cel's son, would call his own issue his father's seed. Or maybe the loin plundering is just in there to illustrate her being influenced by the consult.
Quote from: Callan S.Quote from: Madness"With them marched the Vokalati, the feared Sun-wailers of Nilnamesh, under the Grandmaster known only as Carindusu, notorious for his insolence in the presence of the Aspect-Emperor and for his rumoured theft of the Mandate Gnosis" (WLW, p85).Yeah, you can see that becoming a two birds with one stone thang - insolent (possibly a Conphas level sociopath and unmanipulatable/innefficiently manipulatable). Somehow manipulated to go mad during the battle (subtle poisons/hallucinogens employment, even)
That is something I've always been curious about. My italics. And yes, they're never mentioned in the PON but neither are lots of things... striptease ;).
And bring down the Mandate as well? Well, the Sethwatha homonculous in them makes them kind of fixated/harder to manipulate. Also they remember the past. Without the past, there is less context to have to work within when manipulating.
Possibly leaked Gnosis knowledge to Carindusu for the purposes of the dual elimination as well.
I never subscribed to that theory but I suppose it could have been after this scene...
Nameless could always be Seswatha. :)
Nameless could always be Seswatha. :)
Stripped of sorcery or collar-bound?
A shape no Son of the House Anasûrimbor could fail to recognize: the Shield of Sil.
- I get the impression that Shauriatas is kind of ark-bound, that he might never leave it and hasn't for a long time. I wonder how that fits with Serwa's assertion that she has battled as Seswatha. Either Shauriatas must come forth (making him seem really vulnerable to me) or maybe Seswatha fought him in the Ark, like while fleeing with Nau-Cayuti.
- When Akka says he knows how Shae cheated death, it sounds a bit like the dream just revealed the method that the Mandati were unaware of, like he learned it just then. Or not?
Guys please.
With ever email notification you get my hopes up and then crush them >_>
Guys please.Haha sorry. Maybe its a ploy to try and force you to participate.
With ever email notification you get my hopes up and then crush them >_>
(http://i.imgur.com/sZwZDj7.png)Guys please.
With ever email notification you get my hopes up and then crush them >_>
What about now? :P