Skin-Spies (Nature of Tekné Soulles Things)

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H

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« on: August 05, 2015, 08:21:00 pm »
So, I found this part again:

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Occasionally, Cnaiür spoke to them, learned something of their lean ways. They called themselves the Last Children of the Inchoroi, though they were loath to speak of their “Old Fathers.” They claimed to be Keepers of the Inverse Fire, though the merest question regarding either their “keeping” or their “fire” pitched them into confusion. They never complained, save to say they hungered for unspeakable congress, or to insist they were falling—always falling. They declared he could trust them, because their Old Father had made them his slaves. They were, they said, dogs that would sooner starve than snap meat from a stranger’s hand.
They carried, Cnaiür could see, the spark of the void within them. Like the Sranc.

So, "Last Children of the Inchoroi" seems to mean that they are the last, or possibly meaning the latest, creation of the Tekne.  We know that "Old Father" refers the Consult.

What I think is interesting is the idea that they are "Keepers of the Inverse Fire."  Now, at first, reading that as Tenders of the Inverse Fire yields us nothing, only more questions.  What I thought up, after ruminating on what we learn in False Sun and what Wutteät says about himself:

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"IT IS MY CURSE TO BREATHE, SO LONG AS THE WORLD LIVES."
...
"He dies from the outside," Cleric said, "because Hell sustains him from within."
"CUNNING..." the Wracu groaned out from the black. "CUNNING-CUNNING ISHROI!"

It is my theory that skin-spies, are Keepers, in the sense that they keep the Inverse Fire within themselves.  In other words, the Inverse Fire is their substitute souls, that which animates them.  Sranc and Bashrag are probably the same as well.  This is why they can't even fathom what the Inverse Fire is either, how well can anyone describe their soul?

Last, is what is this part saying they only complain "to insist they were falling—always falling" actually telling us?  Something about the nature of the Inverse Fire perhaps?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

locke

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« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2015, 08:34:10 pm »
Re the latter, falling probably refers to Shae method of immortality, their "soul" is suspended in a circle

H

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« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2015, 08:48:49 pm »
Re the latter, falling probably refers to Shae method of immortality, their "soul" is suspended in a circle

Indeed, I was thinking along those line, but failed to grasp it fully, thanks.

Also, it seems that skin-spies are immortal.  Doppelgänger Serwë tells us she is at least 200 years old, chances are they are far older.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2015, 02:48:24 am »
I rarely do this anymore because many of you nuts get it into your heads that I'm playing some devious game whereas I'm really just weak and giving into my compulsions but, as the histories go, Skin-Spies are new artifacts of the Old Science. According to Achamian's POV in TDTCB, the Mandate only stopped warring openly with the Consult around three hundred years before the events in PON - major themes of TDTCB being: exactly how did the Consult accomplish this, are they still around and operating in the Three-Seas, how the absence of an enemy has made the Mandate a joke in the contemporary politics of the day, how the Mandate Schoolmen all feel the futility of their struggle and how each individually reconcile that dissonance with their experience of the Dreams.

Ergo, any given Skin-Spy can only be that old ;).
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H

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« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2015, 11:25:37 am »
Yes, probably much older than that though.  Perhaps not as old as the First Apocalypse, but perhaps close?

Another interesting note, I picked up:
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HOW
Roared through what passed for Maëngi’s soul.
I HATE
Shattering whatever thoughts, whatever passions he might call his own.
THIS WORLD.
Crushing even the unquenchable hunger, the all-encompassing ache . . .
Eyes like twin Nails of Heaven. Laughter, wild with a thousand years of madness.
SHOW ME, MAËNGI . . .

We know that skin-spies have no souls, the thing that replaced Soma having one was a true rarity.  Therefor, what can we take "Roared through what passed for Maëngi’s soul" to mean?  Also the fact that this 'roaring' is "shattering whatever thoughts, whatever passions he might call his own." 

Well, I would present the idea that not only is the Inverse Fire used as an animator and a surrogate soul, but it is also a back-door, a root-kit of sorts, allowing Aurang & co. unfettered access and control over the creation in question.  This would fuel the idea of mine as well, that the No-God (in part) was a wide-broadcast channel (or a link) of sorts, allowing access to all the Tekné things at once, rather than with directed focus.  This is why Aurang calls himself "Horde-General to dread Mog-Pharau, Breaker of Worlds."  It is Aurang who commands, through the network of IF 'souled' that are linked through the No-God.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

SilentRoamer

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« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2015, 01:20:14 pm »
H I can see some merit in that argument but remember when the No God was free he spoke through the Sranc as one voice - I don't think anyone in the Consult holds the reins of the NoGod - its an equivalent to an A-Bomb, you just push the button and hope for the best!

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« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2015, 01:35:27 pm »
Re the latter, falling probably refers to Shae method of immortality, their "soul" is suspended in a circle
This is what I read it as too. Also, he's suspended in one of the Horns, maybe adding to the falling feeling.
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« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2015, 01:50:18 pm »
H I can see some merit in that argument but remember when the No God was free he spoke through the Sranc as one voice - I don't think anyone in the Consult holds the reins of the NoGod - its an equivalent to an A-Bomb, you just push the button and hope for the best!

I disagree completely though.  I find no compelling reason to believe the No-God was willing or able to direct itself.  In fact, the fact that it remained hidden for so long gives me the impression that it was not the 'uber-weapon' it's purported to be.  If No-God has no idea of it's own nature, why hide then?  Why didn't it travel with the Horde at every point?  Fear of the Heron Spear?  How might it be afraid of that, when it doesn't even know what it is?  No, the Consult was afraid of the Heron Spear, so only 'unleashed' the No-God when there were no other options.

Quote
According to extant accounts, not once did the No-God expose himself to battle during this time. It was the years of attrition that forced him to intercede in the Battle of Mengedda.

The No-God is not what we are constantly lead to believe...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2015, 02:04:21 pm »
I disagree completely though.  I find no compelling reason to believe the No-God was willing or able to direct itself.  In fact, the fact that it remained hidden for so long gives me the impression that it was not the 'uber-weapon' it's purported to be.  If No-God has no idea of it's own nature, why hide then?  Why didn't it travel with the Horde at every point?  Fear of the Heron Spear?  How might it be afraid of that, when it doesn't even know what it is?  No, the Consult was afraid of the Heron Spear, so only 'unleashed' the No-God when there were no other options.
...
The No-God is not what we are constantly lead to believe...

Also suggesting once again that there is a specific sorcerous connection with Mog, and his subsequent interaction/connection with its horde, that made taking Sakarpus/Atrithau impossible. Even if those two places made usuing sorcery impossible, if that was the only thing missing, the consult could still have easily affording piling up sranc bodies against the walls until the either got in or those inside simply died of starvation. The will of the No-God must have be able to be interrupted such that it could not tell/corce/compel the minions to do so.
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« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2015, 02:17:39 pm »
Also suggesting once again that there is a specific sorcerous connection with Mog, and his subsequent interaction/connection with its horde, that made taking Sakarpus/Atrithau impossible. Even if those two places made usuing sorcery impossible, if that was the only thing missing, the consult could still have easily affording piling up sranc bodies against the walls until the either got in or those inside simply died of starvation. The will of the No-God must have be able to be interrupted such that it could not tell/corce/compel the minions to do so.

There is also the option that without sorcery, it was just not worth it.  Considering how the Consult were already being ground down, such a tactic would probably have been wasteful.  Yet more proof, to me, that it was Aurang who was pulling the strings, not the No-God itself.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2015, 02:34:37 pm »
I think that this thread will be about as much explanation that we'll get on the No-God. I'm no good at even comprehending such a thing, tbh. I think I agree with H., it has to be something other than we are led to believe.

On another note, why doesn't Kellhus's dream on the circumfix come up in this conversation? Do you guys believe that was Moe or someone else? I truly believe it to be the No-God. And if that's true, it was a physical being described in detail.

ETA: let me clarify myself. I believe the No-God has been speaking to Kellhus. Because he has elevated himself closer and closer to The Absolute. The God, the hundred, the No-God, they all sense him. The No-God wants to use him, so he's reaching out. This further H.'s side of things, I think.

And I think this belongs in the No-God thread. Oh well.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 02:44:13 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2015, 02:53:41 pm »
I'm no good at even comprehending such a thing, tbh. I think I agree with H., it has to be something other than we are led to believe.
I'm with you there. The NG is  pretty much a complete mystery to me. It would be best for my sanity to sit out these conversations, but I cant help myself it would seem ;)

On another note, why doesn't Kellhus's dream on the circumfix come up in this conversation? Do you guys believe that was Moe or someone else? I truly believe it to be the No-God. And if that's true, it was a physical being described in detail.

ETA: let me clarify myself. I believe the No-God has been speaking to Kellhus. Because he has elevated himself closer and closer to The Absolute. The God, the hundred, the No-God, they all sense him. The No-God wants to use him, so he's reaching out. This further H.'s side of things, I think.

I forgot about that bit, and I'm actually not sure how it impacts the nature of Mog's powers. Also, the scene is confusing and many assumptions need to be made to make it usable.

I guess that if it was the No-God, it opens up a whole lot of questions. It implies NG was not destroyed, but just dissipated. But how/where? If it communicates via sorcery of some kind, maybe this indicates that it is at least in part a sorcerous being, and indicates that the chorae in the carapace where being used to somehow limit/blind and/or bind it into some kind of corporeal form. If it exists in some kind of dissipated form that still had agency to reach out, why did it do so? What makes Kellhus, especially in TWP, worth reaching out to? That seems to imply that NG wasn't so much a prisoner of the carapace and that it wants to be re-awakened....

I have no answers :)
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MSJ

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« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2015, 03:12:37 pm »
I have no answers either. I just seem to think (and looking back at the thread this goes against H.) that if anything, the No-God is more than we're led to believe. Not just something that is at the disposal of The Consult. They may have summoned it, but, they have no control over it. Meaning while it was worldly thing during the First Apocalypse, it ran the show, whatever it is. I think now, its a confused entity on the Outside wanting back in the game. I don't know man, I'm just spitballing, and I really have no evidence other than Kellhus saying he spoke to the damn thing. I think it's what made Kellhus "mad" as a Dûnyain. He steeoped outta mission and said this thing needs to go.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2015, 03:59:13 pm »
I think it's what made Kellhus "mad" as a Dûnyain. He steeoped outta mission and said this thing needs to go.

Haha, I like that for some reason. Makes me think of an actor stepping off stage and breaking character to throw out some moron from the audience. Once thats all cleaned up he'll hop back into character and go back to completing the Dunyain mission.
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locke

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« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2015, 06:54:45 pm »
Dissipated is interesting, it would square with the line of people and golden room.  Perhaps the inchoroi are panning for gold and the no god is in all of us it takes thousands to filter out the necessary element and achieve a critical mass quantity.  Aka summon him.

See also aengalus having a spark of the old fire, and kellhus explanation of people containing a pinprick of oversoul.