[What Came Before]

But the Cish say that the solitary god is distinct, Trisk.  The Hundred are demons in their theology, not aspects (that is Inri's doctrine).

So if Fane was right, then these things you claim we know are wrong.

[What Came Before]

I'm not following the logic of your post.  I'm not saying you're wrong.  Just that I don't get it.  We know that there are aspects the God in the form of the Hundred, and we know that the Dunyain conceive of the Legion within our souls that they have to war with.  We also know what Kellhus tells the Nonman emissary that when he went to the Outside he saw the God splintered into a million pieces.  I don't think that any of this says who is right and wrong about who is damned and who is not.

I'm not saying that the parallels are demonstrative, just that they are present and evocative: every Man has a Legion, and the God is "the million-souled" per Inri Sejenus. It isn't a straight assertion on Bakker's part, but it seems suggestive to me, esp. given that Fane denies that the Hundred are part of the God at all, hence the title "Solitary God".  If the Hundred are aspects of the God and not demons, Fane was wrong about at least one thing. I doubt, however, that Scott will ever tell us right out which religion is right. 

Of course, it has yet to be seen that one of the ways to be damned is to follow an incorrect religious tradition with a clean and sincere conscience, however misinformed. It's a ways, I think, between mistakenly failing to honor Gilgaol and Onkis because you are from a Fanim tribe and having your rape face always on like Galian.

[What Came Before]

Of course, it has yet to be seen that one of the ways to be damned is to follow an incorrect religious tradition with a clean and sincere conscience, however misinformed.

Bakker has pretty much confirmed this to be the case.  In an interveiw about TUC he said something about how whole nations are damned?
I'm sure someone here can supply the link  :p  I'll try and find it for you later.

[What Came Before]

Of course, it has yet to be seen that one of the ways to be damned is to follow an incorrect religious tradition with a clean and sincere conscience, however misinformed.

Bakker has pretty much confirmed this to be the case.  In an interveiw about TUC he said something about how whole nations are damned?
I'm sure someone here can supply the link  :p  I'll try and find it for you later.

No sweat bro: Here you go


I agree that your take on the situation of ethnic damnation is the most likely interpretation, I just don't want it to be true because it is very retarded. Bakker has generally been respectful of religion above and beyond anything else I have seen in fantasy/scifi for a long time and I don't want such a simplistic and silly idea to sully his track record.

[What Came Before]

I see what you're saying, Curethan.  I was equating "aspects of the God" with "demons."  I think it's clear that the Hundred (or some of them) exist, and the only question is what they are. 

I also think that Bakker would love to have the Crusaders (Inrithi) turn out to have committed all of their atrocities in a false belief.

[What Came Before]

@Charamemas;  I don't think it is as straightforward as it would seem either way.
I tend to look at the clues provided by Mimarra and Inrau about forgiveness and understanding being paths to redemption.
Whole nations might be damned - but individuals like the skin-eaters can be forgiven?

Following a religious path with a clean conscience is kind of what the inchies are all about, yes?  I don't think that is enough.

Psatma claims dedicating yourself to Yatwer is enough to prevent damanation - but is her compensatory reward just another flavour of hell?
Gilgaol's subreality suggests something far removed from traditional veiws of heaven.
Onkis provides a more interesting example - what might a soul claimed by her experience?

We have no clues about the Fanim afterlife...  are they aiming for oblivion, the spaces between the gods... or is the solitary god a less rambunctious version of the hundred, collecting souls for the aggregated experiences they hold?

[What Came Before]

I agree that your take on the situation of ethnic damnation is the most likely interpretation, I just don't want it to be true because it is very retarded. Bakker has generally been respectful of religion above and beyond anything else I have seen in fantasy/scifi for a long time and I don't want such a simplistic and silly idea to sully his track record.

I'm not sure why "one religion getting it right" is simplistic or disrespectful of religion.  It would actually be somewhat refreshing and disconcerting because we would have to face a representation of the reality that every religion here on earth believes: "I" am the keeper of the one true faith.  The consequences of that belief--shared by every religion--are dire, much worse than any atrocity in the history of mankind.  If there is an afterlife, and if there is a 'one right belief' and if everyone not part of that belief is damned you are condemning trillions of beings to everlasting torment.

Following a religious path with a clean conscience is kind of what the inchies are all about, yes?  I don't think that is enough.

Psatma claims dedicating yourself to Yatwer is enough to prevent damanation - but is her compensatory reward just another flavour of hell?

And speaking of simplistic, if this is so, then Bakker is taking CS Lewis religious philosophy from The Last Battle (Aslan tells a muslim-stand-in that he's saved because although he worshipped a false idol, he worshipped it faithfully and faithfulness is an attribute his false idol shuns but Aslan gets, so because he was a good person and his worship was misdirected his good personness redirected all his worship to the one true god/faith of Aslan).  And if Bakker were doing that I would be very let down--hell, I was let down and metaphysically confounded by that when I read it and was nine years old, it seemed to conflict with all the teachings of church and the bible and struck me as very wishy washy new-agey (my church was vocally against teddy bear, cuddly Christianity and Aslan's pronouncements in the book struck me as exactly that).

[What Came Before]

lol @ your description of your church. mostly because all classic religions that i know anything about were never cuddly to begin with .

but regarding the topic at hand, I'd have to say it would be more Bakker-y to go with the condemnation of millions for little to no reason whatsoever, rather than a more 'everybody wins' kind of thing. And I don't think this is him taking an easy way out.
Its rather difficult to wrap your head around 'holy shit what if the Church of the Third Resurrection is right and everyone else in all of history is going to hell'. As opposed too, say, 'hey you were wrong, but come into heaven any way'.

[What Came Before]

lol @ your description of your church. mostly because all classic religions that i know anything about were never cuddly to begin with .

but regarding the topic at hand, I'd have to say it would be more Bakker-y to go with the condemnation of millions for little to no reason whatsoever, rather than a more 'everybody wins' kind of thing. And I don't think this is him taking an easy way out.
Its rather difficult to wrap your head around 'holy shit what if the Church of the Third Resurrection is right and everyone else in all of history is going to hell'. As opposed too, say, 'hey you were wrong, but come into heaven any way'.

Yeah - I think we're almost certain to learn that some people are damned, some are not, and the reasons why may be quite arbitrary.

Unless someone rewrites the rules (like Kellhus) or someone negates the rules (like the Consult shutting off the world).

[What Came Before]

yeah that is defiantly another thing to consider. after all didnt some guy let a bunch of people into heaven like 2000 years ago? That fellow did some rewriting IIRC.
I'm not saying the consult/kellhus are saviors, but they could certainly do something to change some metaphysical things around.
Maybe Kellhus really does think he can save the sorcerers from damnation.

[What Came Before]

I see what you're saying, Curethan. I was equating "aspects of the God" with "demons." I think it's clear that the Hundred (or some of them) exist, and the only question is what they are.

I also think that Bakker would love to have the Crusaders (Inrithi) turn out to have committed all of their atrocities in a false belief.

Pretty much what convinced me of the righteousness of the Cishaurim's interpretation because the inversion of the first series would be so interesting.

Charamemas, you're thoughts move me to wonder... I'll have to get back to this thread. I do think we're hitting upon heirarchy and some of the reflections real-life Gnosticism kicking around - Solitary God is like Burn in Malazan, God of Gods is the Demon and the Hundred are its aspects.

Nations being damned does imply that there is a "correct" metaphysical order. If anything, that this might bother some of us, is probably indication that Bakker is going to explore that painful possibility. He's suggested any number of times that he intends to confront the reader with uncomfortable issues - we're just the Mengaecca, I guess, in this context .

Edit:

"Then, as sunlight breached the clouds, the rays revealing the hoary Wall of the Dead over the mouth of the River Sursa as it spilled into the Neleost, the Ordeal turned, not to the East.

But to the West... Where it seemed a nation walked...

Bearing long poles, mounted with simulacra of a Carapace..."

[What Came Before]

But wouldn't the greatest inversion of all be the Consult being 'correct', and all people damned? Fighting, as it were, for the right to their own damnation. Winning nothing but endless pain and suffering as retribution for their (un)Holy calling.

Madness what is that quote?

[What Came Before]

Lol, made it up right now . Just riffing off our speculations here and off what might happen at the end of TUC, in line with suggesting nations could be damned.

[What Came Before]

I figured as much, but I have seen some quotes laying around that are from odd sources that I've not read. Could have been the end of the first Ordeal. History repeats.

[What Came Before]

If you ever want help pinpointing the text on those, let me know.

I usually mark my quotes with numbers.

I have some serious impressions that the fifth Tribe remaining beyond the mountains has a whole Inchoroi, Consult, worship culture going on.