(TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth

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Wilshire

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« Reply #75 on: October 07, 2016, 05:20:47 pm »
There you go. Maybe it was both. A cant woven into the mundane song.

Wave function sorcery.  A Schrödinger's Cant.
Oh, I like that. That's good. :D
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geoffrobro

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« Reply #76 on: October 10, 2016, 02:48:34 pm »
Found this in the prologue of TJE
Quote
When they grimaced, their blank and beautiful faces were clenched like crumpled silk, becoming the expressions of ancient and inbred men.
It's been there in front of us the whole time, the Nonmen are inbred humans. Who judging on what I remember of the song the oldest nonman was singing, went under ground and aimed their children as Spears.
"Wutrim kut mi’puru kamuir!"

Wilshire

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« Reply #77 on: October 10, 2016, 04:20:22 pm »
That line refers to sranc, which are in their turn reflection of Nonmen when calm. Upon excitement/rage/anger they cease to resemble the Nonmen. IMO, I don't think its a valid step to take a description of an enraged sranc and attempt to divine anything about the Nonmen.
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geoffrobro

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« Reply #78 on: October 10, 2016, 08:10:09 pm »
I disagree. In one of the Ishterebith chapters Lastborn is crying, Sorweel thinks to himself about how when displaying emotions a Nonman face twists and looks like a sranc. And in a kinda discovery moment he understands that a sranc's grimace is yet another one of the 'vile's' stabs at Nonmen. Imagine fighting versions of your own distorted facial emotions.
The sranc were crafted to fuck with Nonmen in everyway: physical and emotionally.

Edit: LOL I'm wrong. I really need to read before posting my half-baked theories. Sorweel recalls Nin' ciljiras.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 08:18:53 pm by geoffrobro »
"Wutrim kut mi’puru kamuir!"

Wilshire

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« Reply #79 on: October 11, 2016, 01:27:18 pm »
If you're looking at extreme, and rare, Nonman emotions in the recollection of Sorweel, then sure maybe they have some resemblance to sranc. But the difference is the most extreme nonman expression is close to the normal sranc emotions.

What you're doing is like using Cnaiur's reactions to stuff your measure for how a normal human reacts. You shouldn't use fringe conditions to make assumptions on the whole.
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MSJ

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« Reply #80 on: October 11, 2016, 10:15:08 pm »
If you're looking at extreme, and rare, Nonman emotions in the recollection of Sorweel, then sure maybe they have some resemblance to sranc. But the difference is the most extreme nonman expression is close to the normal sranc emotions.

What you're doing is like using Cnaiur's reactions to stuff your measure for how a normal human reacts. You shouldn't use fringe conditions to make assumptions on the whole.

Quote
A sour smirk was the most Proyas could afford. “There’s more to Cnaiür urs Skiötha than you know, Akka. Mark me. In some ways, he’s as extraordinary as Kellhus.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #81 on: October 12, 2016, 05:23:20 pm »
Exactly. He's human, yeah, but he doesn't react how humans react.
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MSJ

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« Reply #82 on: October 12, 2016, 08:59:08 pm »
Exactly. He's human, yeah, but he doesn't react how humans react.

So what do think Wilshire, I've always felt Cnaüir was one of the more reliable of the POV's we get. And it's very well written by Bakker. How he is mad, yet still understands Kellhus better than any other human. I think Cnaüir might be my favorite character of all time, any book I've read. You expect him to be this dumb brute and he is so much more than that. Man, I have a feeling that whatever role he plays in TUC, will be one nobody will expect.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #83 on: October 13, 2016, 04:40:41 pm »
Cnaiur was a great character, certainly. And, up until Serwe-skinspy, I think he was one of the least deceitful POVs in the entire series. After that, he appears to go off the reservation - true madness. His brief scene in TGO does nothing to dispel that for me.

Side note, I'd like to see him battle a Holca. Mr.Twin-Heart guy and his berserk rage from KOMH reminds me of Cnaiur, and I think a fight between the two would be quite epic.
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Monkhound

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« Reply #84 on: March 03, 2017, 09:51:31 pm »
While skimming through the first chapters in search of another passage, I got through the encounter between Kellhus and the unnamed Nonman, and in particular these two quotes below from the Nonman struck me:
Quote from: TPoN prelude
“Extraordinary,” the stranger said, then looked to him. Kellhus could see the glitter of his eyes beneath the brow of his helm. “You must be a name.”
The choice of words uttered is peculiar.
Quote from: TPoN prelude
“But I make excuses like a Man. Loss is written into the very earth. We are only its most dramatic reminder.”
The sad truth behind the words is eerie, with what we have read about both the depths of Cil-Aujas and the Holy Deep.
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

Simas Polchias

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« Reply #85 on: March 03, 2017, 10:41:11 pm »
Quote from: TPoN prelude
“Extraordinary,” the stranger said, then looked to him. Kellhus could see the glitter of his eyes beneath the brow of his helm. “You must be a name.”
The choice of words uttered is peculiar.

Isn't it a synonym for something like "of a noble descent" or "not a mere pleb"?

In the same meeting nonman correctly identifies Kellhus as an Anasurimbor. As far as I understand -- thanks to the Kellhus "grandchild-grandfather similarity" and because nonman actually met, fought and killed many of said grand-grand-...-grandfathers. If he's not exaggerating, there are actual faces of ancient Anasurimbors sewn to his cloack among other tropheys.

Later there is concept of "great names" which is about major political figures of the Three Seas.

The termin could even be of nonmen invention and passed to other languages through Tutelage. It has a certain flavour, nonmen were kinda lavish with naming. F.e., their No-God is no less than Angel of Endless Hunger.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 10:45:43 pm by Simas Polchias »

Monkhound

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« Reply #86 on: March 04, 2017, 09:01:31 am »
Apologies, the italics weren't mine, they're in the text.
The choice for the verb "to be a name" rather than the usual "to have a name" is the choice of words I find peculiar. It suggests power/ strength/ something worth remembering, rather than just an identifier.
Also, Kellhus himself tells the Nonman his name. The Nonman only corroborates the fact by comparing his face with one of the trophies.
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Simas Polchias

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« Reply #87 on: March 04, 2017, 10:55:32 pm »
The choice for the verb "to be a name" rather than the usual "to have a name" is the choice of words I find peculiar. It suggests power/ strength/ something worth remembering, rather than just an identifier.
It corresponds nicely with Kellhus words from TGO, btw.
(click to show/hide)

Also, Kellhus himself tells the Nonman his name. The Nonman only corroborates the fact by comparing his face with one of the trophies.
Aw, my bad. And also a occasion to reread trilogies with the knowledge of TGO.

Francis Buck

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« Reply #88 on: March 07, 2017, 06:19:48 pm »
For what it's worth, "secret names" (which are also sometimes a "true" name, in a metaphysical sense) are pretty common in fantasy and myth, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was worked into Earwa's worldbuilding. That being said I'm not sure how much legit evidence there actually is for it at the moment, and I wouldn't necessarily link that Nonman line with the concept.

At the same time it totally could be. Particularly since such a thing would more than likely apply to Kellhus anyway. For example, in a lot of myths, there would be a notion of an extremely powerful deity who could only be killed/defeated by knowing their "secret name". And then, of course, there are a million and one riffs on that concept itself, so who knows.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 07:54:15 pm by FB »

Wilshire

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« Reply #89 on: March 07, 2017, 06:24:38 pm »
Pretty sure something about finding out a Ciphrang's name lets you summon it.
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