(TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth

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Somnambulist

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« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2016, 02:34:39 pm »
This thought occurred to me this morning, regarding Kellhus' 'outreach program' to the nonmen.  Why would he need the sorcerous might of the nonmen added to the Ordeal?  I get that they're badass on another level to human sorcerers.  However, he has to know that he would only find so many either 1) sane enough, or 2) willing enough to join the Ordeal.  What could be their motivation to join him?  Like they haven't been warring, in one way or another, for millennia anyway.  Also, Kellhus has gathered the largest sorcerous might in human history.

My point is, I don't think he wants them for their power, but for their memories.  Kellhus needs a guide inside the Ark, someone who's been there before, to show him where he needs to go.  So, if he can get even one nonman to join the cause, what better way to access the deepest places of the Ark than to re-introduce a nonman who'd been there before?  He would remember, much as Cleric did in Cil-Aujas.  He could guide Kellhus, and save enormous amounts of time bumbling around in the dark, as it were.

So.  Who's it gonna be?  Oirunas?  Or does Sorweel retain the memories of Immiricas?  Or will the remnants of Ishterebinth form a cadre of sorts to infiltrate the deepest depths of the Ark?
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Bolivar

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« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2016, 03:47:26 pm »
^ It's possible but I wouldn't discount the tactical advantage of the Quya. Once the Inchoroi twins and Mangeacca take the field, all those Anagogic schools won't mean shit.

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2016, 05:18:56 pm »
^ It's possible but I wouldn't discount the tactical advantage of the Quya. Once the Inchoroi twins and Mangeacca take the field, all those Anagogic schools won't mean shit.

Yes they will.  The Anagogic Schoolmen are weaker than the Consult and its Erratics, but there are literally hundreds of them and the Consult has only so many sorcerers.  Everyone they lose to being ganged up on by Anagogics is just as gone as one cooked by the Gnosis.

MSJ

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« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2016, 01:17:49 am »
I thought we've heard somewhere that the Consult had a few thousand Erratics on their side. I could be making it up, but I thought Bakker said that at one time.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

The Sharmat

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« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2016, 04:43:06 am »
Do we have any idea of the current strength of the Mangaecca?

As for the Quya...Kellhus is still sort of a Dunyain. They horde every advantage, however small.

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #50 on: August 19, 2016, 04:58:23 am »
I thought we've heard somewhere that the Consult had a few thousand Erratics on their side. I could be making it up, but I thought Bakker said that at one time.

Actually, I'm rereading the book and have just come to that point.  Oinaral Lastborn tells Sorweel that thousands have gone over to the Consult.  Plucking a few numbers out of thin air that could mean thousands means two thousand and twenty-five percent of them are Quya then that's five hundred Quya mages minus however many got killed at Ishual.  The numbers could obviously be much, much worse.

The Mangaecca numbered around thirty when they were outlawed which is the only time numbers have been given for them.  They don't seem to have much opportunity to recruit and we haven't had any evidence of them directly taking the field.  They may no longer be capable of it, but they might have worked out some atrocious way of managing.  They seem to leave the fighting to their minions. 

There is, of course, also the case of the Wracu if Mog-Pheru is resurrected.  All in all, Kellhous seems to need everyone he can lay his hands on.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #51 on: August 19, 2016, 05:01:34 am »
All the old northern schools were tiny by modern standards, I thought? As for recruitment...the Mandate apparently had skirmishes with Consult agents as recently as a few centuries ago before they vanished. They may have been actively recruiting from southron schools. Schoolment in general avoid deployment unless absolutely necessary (as it is with the Horde).

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #52 on: August 19, 2016, 05:09:49 am »
That's true.  "Psst-Hey want the Gnosis, Immortality, and safety from damnation?" might tempt more than a few Schoolmen to turning coat.  We know so little about the skirmishing the Consult agents that its hard to say about them.  They could have been the Consult working mischief with Synthese and Cants of Compulsion, buying the help of ignorant patsies, or something more.  We don't know.  We've never seen, in any of the flashbacks, any Consult mages other than Erratics and the Inchoroi, but that isn't definitive.  Obviously it's hard to fight if your soul is falling between the bodies of crippled old men, but the Consult is inventive in its atrocities.  The Mangaecca may have managed a way to take the field when they have to.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #53 on: August 19, 2016, 05:11:56 am »
Do we know any but Shaeonanra attempted this? He's the only one I know of that's explicitly stated as immortal and got the "Cheater-of-Death" title. Further...do we know that's the state he's in, these days? Could it be that rediscovery of fundamentals of the Tekne allowed his soul to be retrieved and given a proper, immortal body?

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #54 on: August 19, 2016, 05:30:54 am »
That's why the last two sentences of my last post are so open ended.  We know as a school the Mangaecca were obsessed with cheating death and avoiding damnation.  The scene with Shaeonanra is the only time we've seen on the Mangaecca post exile.  Of course Shaeonanra is going to get the cool titles and curse names, he's their leader, but we don't know how representative his fate is of the rest of the Mangaecca or if he transitioned to something else.  The Consults increased mastery of  the Tekne may allow other options.  I'm sure Scott is going to show us something truly appalling (and perhaps combat capable) before the end.

Monkhound

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« Reply #55 on: August 21, 2016, 10:15:40 am »
Quote from: Locke
Quote
Rage--Goddess! Sing of your flight,
From our fathers and our sons.
Away, Goddess! Secret your divinity!
From the conceit that makes kings of fools
From the scrutiny that makes corpses of souls.
Mouths open, arms thrown wide, we beseech thee:
Sing us the end of your song.

They did hoist Anarlû’s head high,
And poured down its blood as fire.
And the ground gave forth many sons,
Ninety nine who were as Gods,
And so bid their fathers
Be as sons…

What would be the link between the Cunuroi song and Koringhus's 99 and hundredth stones, as well as the head on a pole in the Kellhus chapters? I'd almost suspect we've already had hints about it in TPON.
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

Madness

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« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2016, 07:31:49 pm »
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Monkhound :).

EDIT:

That's why the last two sentences of my last post are so open ended.  We know as a school the Mangaecca were obsessed with cheating death and avoiding damnation.  The scene with Shaeonanra is the only time we've seen on the Mangaecca post exile.  Of course Shaeonanra is going to get the cool titles and curse names, he's their leader, but we don't know how representative his fate is of the rest of the Mangaecca or if he transitioned to something else.  The Consults increased mastery of  the Tekne may allow other options.  I'm sure Scott is going to show us something truly appalling (and perhaps combat capable) before the end.

There is a thread regarding about Why haven't more Few gone to the Consult? that maybe we should resurrect in the TGO subforum. Also, I'm with you Battle-Synthese, CC :)!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 07:40:56 pm by Madness »
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2016, 08:03:11 pm »
That's a great catch from the new guy but no idea what it means.

Madness

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« Reply #58 on: September 01, 2016, 12:14:35 am »
Throwing out some random responses I missed previously:

Maybe.  I'm not so sure after seeing the Gloom in Istererbinth.   They don't have to leave home to see horrific things happening to people they care more about than humans.  As an alternate possibility, the state of the Great Ordeal might be so horrific that it stirs up memories of the Second Apocalypse of the Cujo-Inchoroi Wars and thus make the Nonmen more sane.

True. Though, I'm thinking it might perturb the Nonmen to see Men eating their Sranc likenesses.

^ It's possible but I wouldn't discount the tactical advantage of the Quya. Once the Inchoroi twins and Mangeacca take the field, all those Anagogic schools won't mean shit.

Do we have any idea of the current strength of the Mangaecca?

As for the Quya...Kellhus is still sort of a Dunyain. They horde every advantage, however small.

What TS said in bold.

Also, as was mentioned, we don't even know the current state of the Mangaecca, let alone their strength.
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redjako

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« Reply #59 on: September 05, 2016, 03:12:20 am »
I thought we've heard somewhere that the Consult had a few thousand Erratics on their side. I could be making it up, but I thought Bakker said that at one time.

Oinaral says "thousands" to Sorweel as well, that have gone over to the Consult.

I figure Kellhus' Non Men gamble is to make sure they aren't taken from behind at Dagliash. Covering his flank and eliminating variables by confirming, or denying the Non Men as allies or enemies.

Plus, as mentioned above, we don't know how powerful even a handful of the Non Men mages would be. Cleric was an absolute monster.