(TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth

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Cynical Cat

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« Reply #60 on: September 05, 2016, 03:50:46 am »
The Quya retain the meaning of their words and thus the power of their sorcery even as they lose memories of their events and thus identity.  They're going to be really dangerous, but vulnerable to being out thought (as the Dunyain did) due to their fractured minds. 

gtownwr

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« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2016, 09:01:39 pm »
What was the deal with the little Nonmen statue things that were running around the Boatman's legs on and all that on the descent?

I read this as a dream or vision that Sorweel had and not reality.

MSJ

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« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2016, 09:43:52 pm »
What was the deal with the little Nonmen statue things that were running around the Boatman's legs on and all that on the descent?

I read this as a dream or vision that Sorweel had and not reality.

Didn't seem a vision to me, it seemed like Orinaral noticed them too.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #63 on: September 13, 2016, 03:01:20 am »
I thought the plan was for Serwa to kill everyone because Kellhus knows or has a strong suspicion that they've turned consult. Also of note, regarding numbers, is that The Survivor mentions the "singers" came from the west, presumably Ishterebinth, and not the east, like the shriekers. He said there were hundreds of them walking through the air.
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Monkhound

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« Reply #64 on: September 13, 2016, 03:31:51 pm »
What was the deal with the little Nonmen statue things that were running around the Boatman's legs on and all that on the descent?

I read this as a dream or vision that Sorweel had and not reality.

Didn't seem a vision to me, it seemed like Orinaral noticed them too.
I interpreted it as the weird perspective of Nonman statues (as described outside of Ishterebinth, and in Cil-Aujas) dancing in the light of a torch or Cant.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 03:36:25 pm by Monkhound »
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #65 on: September 20, 2016, 04:22:04 am »
At this point, everyone's hand has been forced.  No more fucking around.  The vile and their supporters are known in Ishterebinth.  Those who oppose them are known.  The Tall just killed their king.  I don't see any sudden changes of allegiance, and even if there were, you wouldn't want ex-Consult fanboys suddenly "on your side."  The Tall won't stop with just the king, he'll try to take all the Consult sympathizers out.  Consult-allied will throw down or won't want to stick around to be chopped up next.  Serwa will definitely sing fire and ruin against them.  I just can't see why there would be more mundane singing at this point.  It's time to clean house.

IMO

I'm with you--I can't see mundane singing adding anything to the narrative.  CC, you make great points, but at some level it's unsurprising that a story has "no one's ever overcome X" and then someone does.  I bet we're def going to see crazy rule-breaking shit in TUC (Kellhus will handle a chorae, Kellhus will melt a hole in the ark, Akka will bathe, Kellhus will make a mistake, a nonman will remember, or something else).

mrganondorf

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« Reply #66 on: September 20, 2016, 12:31:48 pm »
Just a few things from the Boatman's song:

"Let us aim our children as spears!" - a pretty Dunyain thing for nonmen to do.  Maybe the nonmen are nothing more than an earlier dunyain experiment carried out on a much longer timeline?

"And the ground gave forth many sons, Ninety-nine who were as Gods..." - are the gods nothing more than ascendent nonmen/nonwomen?  The nonmen on Earwa might be nothing more than the weaker, rebellious sect; not so much avoiding damnation as avoiding the tyranny of submitting to stronger brethren who would punish the rebels for refusing to bow.

That might explain why Earwa is the 'promised world' for the Inchoroi.  Let's say in time long long ago, nonpersons ascended to a higher plane of reality/power and thus exercised dominion over the entire physical realm and all of the planets.  These 'gods' established hells where they would eat but not for any particular sins--just the stronger consuming the weaker.  The inchoroi are displeased with the arrangement and so send out a bunch of Arks in search of the one place that made hell possible. 

Anybody have thoughts on the significance of the Boatman singing a 'new' song right where he does on page 327?

MSJ

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« Reply #67 on: September 20, 2016, 02:39:54 pm »
At this point, everyone's hand has been forced.  No more fucking around.  The vile and their supporters are known in Ishterebinth.  Those who oppose them are known.  The Tall just killed their king.  I don't see any sudden changes of allegiance, and even if there were, you wouldn't want ex-Consult fanboys suddenly "on your side."  The Tall won't stop with just the king, he'll try to take all the Consult sympathizers out.  Consult-allied will throw down or won't want to stick around to be chopped up next.  Serwa will definitely sing fire and ruin against them.  I just can't see why there would be more mundane singing at this point.  It's time to clean house.

IMO

I'm with you--I can't see mundane singing adding anything to the narrative.  CC, you make great points, but at some level it's unsurprising that a story has "no one's ever overcome X" and then someone does.  I bet we're def going to see crazy rule-breaking shit in TUC (Kellhus will handle a chorae, Kellhus will melt a hole in the ark, Akka will bathe, Kellhus will make a mistake, a nonman will remember, or something else).

I'm torn on this, I've seen a lot of compelling evidence that it will be mundane and a lot that she's gonna sing ruin. Why can't it be both. What if she starts out mundanely to bring the Nonmen to her side, then a few of them just don't buy it. So, she does something to bypass the collar and kill the ones who still at for the Vile? Why can't it be both?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Monkhound

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« Reply #68 on: September 20, 2016, 09:11:05 pm »
Just a few things from the Boatman's song:

"Let us aim our children as spears!" - a pretty Dunyain thing for nonmen to do.  Maybe the nonmen are nothing more than an earlier dunyain experiment carried out on a much longer timeline?

"And the ground gave forth many sons, Ninety-nine who were as Gods..." - are the gods nothing more than ascendent nonmen/nonwomen?  The nonmen on Earwa might be nothing more than the weaker, rebellious sect; not so much avoiding damnation as avoiding the tyranny of submitting to stronger brethren who would punish the rebels for refusing to bow.

That might explain why Earwa is the 'promised world' for the Inchoroi.  Let's say in time long long ago, nonpersons ascended to a higher plane of reality/power and thus exercised dominion over the entire physical realm and all of the planets.  These 'gods' established hells where they would eat but not for any particular sins--just the stronger consuming the weaker.  The inchoroi are displeased with the arrangement and so send out a bunch of Arks in search of the one place that made hell possible. 

Anybody have thoughts on the significance of the Boatman singing a 'new' song right where he does on page 327?

The impact of the number 99 intrigues me. That number, as well as 100 is found in more than one context.
Also the whole song about the 99 who lived like gods, fathers be as your sons, etc. had me thinking. Most of the words used to phrase the song can be read in more than one way.

Quote
Rage--Goddess! Sing of your flight,
From our fathers and our sons.
Away, Goddess! Secret your divinity!
From the conceit that makes kings of fools
From the scrutiny that makes corpses of souls.
Mouths open, arms thrown wide, we beseech thee:
Sing us the end of your song.

They did hoist Anarlû’s head high,
And poured down its blood as fire.
And the ground gave forth many sons,
Ninety nine who were as Gods,
And so bid their fathers
Be as sons…

For example:
"Rage--Goddess" can be read as: "Godess of rage" and/or "Godess, be angry"
"Sing of your flight" as "let us chase you while you run away" or "tell us about your journey"
"Goddess, secret your divinity" can both be read as "give us your power" and "die already"

I'm as native a speaker as it gets for a non-native speaker, but I'm sure there's more dimensions I'm not seeing.

Also, wasn't the Ark compared to a womb (= as female)?

There's also the matter of the 99 stones combined with the 100th stone of Korringhus. Still wondering how this ties into it all.
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Truth Shines

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« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2016, 03:52:01 am »
On the other hand they are at the exact location where sorweel was overwhelmed by the joyous and continuous song that used to fill that location, he even notes how special it was to hear the voices of women and children singing there.

This.

It must be admitted that meta-gnostic may be able to defeat the collar, so sorcery is possible.  And that "fire and ruin" bit is difficult to interpret around.  Yet I think for her to just massacre all the ghouls there would be far less dramatic than for her to conquer them with her singing voice, which it's implied that she can do -- using it to remind them of their glory days, to inspire them, to make them feel once again the anguish of lost beauty.  After all, isn't that what the Erratics crave?  To feel?

Also, when Kellhus says to show his "dread portion," my first reaction was also to interpret it as meta-gnostic sorcery.  But Kellhus' other, arguably even greater, sorcery, is to conquer the hearts of others.  It seems quite possible that this is what he means.

Besides, it seems to me the sorcery interpretation has one further difficulty: it has long been clear the Ishterebinth has been seized by a pro-Consult faction.  If Serwa had wanted to destroy all of them for it and had always been able to do so (the collar was actually not effective), then why did she wait so long?

Wilshire

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« Reply #70 on: October 05, 2016, 05:46:57 pm »
"why did she wait so long" is a great question.

'  Metagnosis is cool and all, but allegedly humans can do it.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #71 on: October 05, 2016, 05:50:51 pm »
"why did she wait so long" is a great question.

'  Metagnosis is cool and all, but allegedly humans can do it.

Indeed, I think the waiting is a strike against it being sorcery and for it being mundane singing.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Hiro

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« Reply #72 on: October 05, 2016, 09:24:45 pm »
"why did she wait so long" is a great question.

'  Metagnosis is cool and all, but allegedly humans can do it.

Indeed, I think the waiting is a strike against it being sorcery and for it being mundane singing.

Depends. Which song has more lyrics to remember...?  ;)
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Wilshire

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« Reply #73 on: October 05, 2016, 09:45:58 pm »
There you go. Maybe it was both. A cant woven into the mundane song.
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« Reply #74 on: October 06, 2016, 12:49:20 pm »
There you go. Maybe it was both. A cant woven into the mundane song.

Wave function sorcery.  A Schrödinger's Cant.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira