[TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam

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Madness

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« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2017, 03:03:51 pm »
I think there is a reason there was a whole storyline on how people found the existence of "thought-dancers" so hard to believe.

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Dunkelheit.

Also, this is exactly what terrifies me most for the people of Earwa. No one knows about the Mutilated, all Earwa is operating under the false assumption that Shauriatas, Mekeritrig, and Aurax (maybe even Aurang since it's unlikely anyone saw his corpse) are still the Consult. Odds are stacked against humanity with the No-God and the weapons races acting of one will as it is... let alone that they don't fucking know they have four fucking Kellhuses to contend with.
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CondYoke

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« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2017, 04:17:11 pm »
I'm actually getting curious to know what various endings people were anticipating or would have preferred after the fact?
I do agree with some of the points that panorama makes. The ending does seem abrupt compared to the details of the march to get there. I think some of the confusion comes from the POV of Malowebi- being a decapitated head rolling about his waist makes his ability to describe the action very limited-I found this most frustrating with the battle of Kellhus and Aurang.  And yes, Met and Shae were too easily written out of the series.
Also, I wanted to see more of the Ark. how does one get from the gate to the Golden Room absent a floating shield/ wings? It also doesn't square with the images of the golden room that Akka dreams of- I remember him walking from the outside of the ark inside- no? not possible at 1000+feet of altitude.
Does Kellhus know any of the Mutilated? Of course he does, but do we? Is that the Pragma? How did The Survivor survive if the consult did, in fact, "purge the 1000-1000 halls"? Do the mutilated know about the survivor?
I don't quibble with the ending (how it turned out) per say, I just wanted to see more- I would have liked to see some of these things shown- mimara seeing Kellhus with the JE, Akka going Gnostic ape-shit, the death of the dragon, more understanding of the Tenke (does the Heron Spear have to be plugged in?), and a climb to the golden room (how did Kel get through the Hoard, the Ordeal, and the dragon?).

Somnambulist

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« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2017, 04:30:05 pm »
I don't quibble with the ending (how it turned out) per say, I just wanted to see more- I would have liked to see some of these things shown- mimara seeing Kellhus with the JE, Akka going Gnostic ape-shit, the death of the dragon, more understanding of the Tenke (does the Heron Spear have to be plugged in?), and a climb to the golden room (how did Kel get through the Hoard, the Ordeal, and the dragon?).


As per my bold on your question: It's stated that the door high on the side of the Upright Horn is where Kellhus entered, after coercing Aurax to open it.  It's a short-cut to the Golden Room, if you're one of the Consult and can access it.  Otherwise, everyone else 'takes the stairs,' as it were.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2017, 04:44:27 pm »
Also, I wanted to see more of the Ark. how does one get from the gate to the Golden Room absent a floating shield/ wings? It also doesn't square with the images of the golden room that Akka dreams of- I remember him walking from the outside of the ark inside- no? not possible at 1000+feet of altitude.
Kellhus exhibits flying/floating abilities that do no use sorcery.  Maybe thats how he go there?

Does Kellhus know any of the Mutilated? Of course he does, but do we?
Could go either way. He likely doesn't know Koringhus, so depending on the actual age of the Dunyain, he might not know them. Its been a long time since he left Ishual.

Is that the Pragma?
Might be. We certainly don't know who they are

How did The Survivor survive if the consult did, in fact, "purge the 1000-1000 halls"?
By hiding. One cannot raise walls against what has been forgotten ;)

Do the mutilated know about the survivor?
Could go either way. These Dunyain have have been captured somewhat early, or way at the 'end' - whenever they determined they had completed their purge.

I don't quibble with the ending (how it turned out) per say, I just wanted to see more- I would have liked to see some of these things shown- mimara seeing Kellhus with the JE, Akka going Gnostic ape-shit, the death of the dragon, more understanding of the Tenke (does the Heron Spear have to be plugged in?), and a climb to the golden room (how did Kel get through the Hoard, the Ordeal, and the dragon?).
I assume Kelmomas (you meant Kelmomas, not Kellhus, right?) was brought there by a skin spy, and isn't there an entry in the Glossary about the Spear having a battery pack?

I agree, TUC could have gone on for another 1000 pages and I'd be happy about that. Really every book could be about double the length. Its a big world, lots to explore, and if the Atrocity Tales are any indication then there's plenty we don't ever even get hints at.
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CondYoke

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« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2017, 04:55:23 pm »
Yes, I was referring to Kelmomas- his journey seems improbable, given the timeline, and the fact that, despite being .5 Dunyain, that's a long climb. And agin, how'd he get through the hoard, the ordeal, and the intrinsic gate without being seen? And why does his presence allow the skin spy to move?
It seemed so abrupt that I can't help but think this is all part of the plan... TTT that is. (I.e. Kellhus knew Esmi would release Kel jr., he would be salted, etc...)

Wilshire

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« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2017, 05:30:38 pm »
Agreed, his showing is abrupt. Not sure how to rectify that for you, other than I think he was brought there - maybe through a series of backdoors? Still strange.

Some interesting discussions on the subject throughout the TUC threads regarding who was responsible for what, like [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit

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Somnambulist

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« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2017, 06:25:08 pm »
Yes, I was referring to Kelmomas- his journey seems improbable, given the timeline, and the fact that, despite being .5 Dunyain, that's a long climb. And agin, how'd he get through the hoard, the ordeal, and the intrinsic gate without being seen? And why does his presence allow the skin spy to move?
It seemed so abrupt that I can't help but think this is all part of the plan... TTT that is. (I.e. Kellhus knew Esmi would release Kel jr., he would be salted, etc...)

ah, I'll just show myself out, then.
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CondYoke

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« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2017, 07:45:38 pm »
Yes, I was referring to Kelmomas- his journey seems improbable, given the timeline, and the fact that, despite being .5 Dunyain, that's a long climb. And agin, how'd he get through the hoard, the ordeal, and the intrinsic gate without being seen? And why does his presence allow the skin spy to move?
It seemed so abrupt that I can't help but think this is all part of the plan... TTT that is. (I.e. Kellhus knew Esmi would release Kel jr., he would be salted, etc...)

ah, I'll just show myself out, then.

Haha.  Sorry for the confusion.

themerchant

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« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2017, 08:20:34 pm »
I think it's possible Kellhus said for her not to do it specifically so she would. Maitha and Thelli both hesitate to tell Esme what Kellhus would do as she would just do the opposite, at various points during TAE. "such is the sum of my grievance against him?". In the TUC scene we get Akka seeing how much she hates Kellhus as a little reminder just before Kellhus tells her where Kel is and to leave him.

The real crazy shit is when you realise Moenghus the senior sent the Esme Skin-spy.

profgrape

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« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2017, 08:37:47 pm »
Yes, I was referring to Kelmomas- his journey seems improbable, given the timeline, and the fact that, despite being .5 Dunyain, that's a long climb. And agin, how'd he get through the hoard, the ordeal, and the intrinsic gate without being seen? And why does his presence allow the skin spy to move?
It seemed so abrupt that I can't help but think this is all part of the plan... TTT that is. (I.e. Kellhus knew Esmi would release Kel jr., he would be salted, etc...)

Kelmomas sets off with the Skin-Spy-in-Black the night before the Ordeal's morning assault.  So given the fact that the path is clear and he has a guide, it seems like he could make it to the Golden Room in time to completely ruin his Pops' day.   

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2017, 10:53:46 pm »
That's what I was thinking too. Did the skin-spy know, though? That he couldn't be seen by the Gods, that is. Maybe Kelmomas is in a sense a human born without a soul? Also, this has been talked about before in other threads, but what was the reason why Somandutta saved Mimara? Did they somehow know they would need her judging eye to collapse the wave-function or whatever?

panorama

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« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2017, 05:47:50 am »
edit: I feel like these types of feelings and minor disappointments are par for the course on anything I read, but some people seem genuinely pissed off that their expectations have been thoroughly overturned. I'm reading a lot about what they didn't like but not a lot of examples of what type of ending they expected overall? e.g. Return of the King type ending, Last Argument of Kings perhaps? Idk.

The book I would have preferred (ending, middle, beginning, plot, character development, etc.) would be one that:

A) Does not use deus ex machina to conclude it -- I'm not disappointed because a god shows up in the story. I have no issue with Yatwer, Ajokli, Momas, Gilgaol, etc. Deus ex machina is a plot device (not a character trope) that is as old as writing itself. It concludes a plot by bringing in a god (magician, hero, whatever) with sufficient power to just end things. There's a reason why no credible author uses it.

B) Does not spend half the book in pedantic detail on rape, sodomy, necrophilia, bestiality, cannibalism, murder, gang rape, gang sodomy, gang necrophilia, gang bestiality, gang cannibalism, rape orgies, sodomy orgies, necrophilia orgies, bestiality orgies, cannibalism orgies, murder orgies, etc. to the detriment of plot, narrative clarity, character development, and so forth.

C) This is the last book of the quadrilogy, so I would expect it to provide closure to some, if not all, of the major arcs. It did not do that. In fact, it just calls into question why those arcs even existed, e.g. Acha and Mimara, Sorwheel.

D) Has a climax that is worthy of the build up. To put this in perspective, more writing is spent on Sorwheel and his, ahem, auto-erotic episode (and how he feels about it afterward throughout the story), then on the showdown with the Unholy Consult (which, by the way, happens to be the name of the book).



   

panorama

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« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2017, 05:53:01 am »
As for Kelmomas affecting the gods, that is explained. He is the No-God, gods can't see him. Gods see the entire timeline, when the timeline changes, the gods change. If you surprise a god, that fundamentally changes that god and Kelmomas always surprises as he is invisible to them.
What? How about when Nau-Cayuti was the No-God...could the gods see Kelmomas then?

Rots

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« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2017, 06:07:48 am »
I agree with Panorama almost completely. Well put. Im hoping my initial disappointment subsides but seriously, wtf, so much bs. Maybe Bakker is the trickster..

CondYoke

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« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2017, 07:15:31 am »
Yes he is. And I admire him all the more for it...

"I will adore thee!" it gasped. Images of ravishishing and being ravished twined beneath the soul's eye. (350)

I've met no other writer who so well meshes the animal with the holy- the physical with the intellect- the being with the now. As for the subject/object bit... I'm still working that out.