It's never really been clear to me whether NC as the Subject was a happy accident or a deliberate choice. Regardless of which, however, that the Consult were pretty much SOL after all the Anasurimbor were (presumably) wiped out during TFA.

I'd love to know what in the heck they were doing for the ~2000 years between Mengedda and the discovery of the Dunyain and a living Anasurimbor. Aside from sowing discord throughout TSS, of course.

It's a shame that we never got to hear from Shae in the present timeline...

I see it on iTunes.  And I see it here:

https://www.amazon.com/Unholy-Consult-Aspect-Emperor-Book-Four-ebook/dp/B07NDY4QMQ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=25HZQPYLU4URB&keywords=the+unholy+consult&qid=1550009828&s=digital-text&sprefix=the+unholy+consult%2Cdigital-text%2C161&sr=1-1-catcorr

As an aside, wtf is up with the 3 star review. Brutal.

Quote from:  profgrape

When it comes to answers, we should be careful what we wish for.  As much as I really want, for example, to know how the Psukhe functions, there's a part of me that knows that the ambiguity is a big reason I love these books. 

Or to put it succinctly: Midichlorians.

Let me rephrase myself a bit. I don't need every mystery spelled out, I want a "payoff" for some of the plotlines. I don't need to know how the JE works, I want the JE to play a meaningful part; the plot to have a significant outcome. The dreams, same. I don't need to know the how, rather the why.

Totally agree, MSJ

It might be that the IF only simulates the general experience of damnation. Which is different from showing the subject the experience of their own post-physical destiny. 

Quote from: Francis Buck on August 02, 2018, 10:05:35 pm

I found Iyokus not appearing on-screen whatsoever to be very, very strange, to the extent that it doesn't really make sense to me. Why would he not have been more involved, for example, in the scenes with members of the Great Ordeal making tactical/strategic decisions? We see the other leading sorcerors involved there (hell, an entire subplot is devoted to Saccarrees and Carindusu). I'd figured by the time TGO came out Iyokus still hadn't popped up  that RSB was just saving himfor TUC - and in a sense he was, what with the super daimos Ciphrang attack -- but it still felt strange that we gradually got to catch up on characters like Proyas and later Saubon as TAE progressed, but never got anything from the dude who is in large part responsible for some of the more important things in the quadrilogy, including Kellhus's learning of the Daimos (the relevance of which can't really be overstated, given the ending of TUC).

It feels like something where there may have been plans to have him show up, but they either got dropped in editing or RSB just felt like it wasn't plot relevant by the time we got TUC, and that the glimpse we got via Kakaliol was enough.

I agree. I seem to remember a scene where Iyokus expressed his opinion during a meeting or something, but that was about it. For three books, he was almost entirely in the background. Which is indeed strange, considering this is a secondary character that had an important role in the last series and (which is maybe more relevant for TAE) that was Kellhus' tutor in the Daimos in between series.
It's possible that Bakker felt that he just didn't have the time to include anything with Iyokus along with all the other ongoing plotlines, but it's still disappointing. We just get a short scene with him (and he wasn't even referred to by name, which resulted in some people not even noticing that he died...) and then he dies. I haven't heard of any deleted scene involving him, though, so maybe dropping a possible Iyokus subplot (if it did happen) was an early decision?
Like you said, we had those scenes with Saccarees and Carindûsû. Iyokus' role in TAE is even smaller than that of Obwë Gûswuran (Mysunsai Grandmaster) and Temus Enhorû (Imperial Saik Grandmaster), who aren't that important as characters, but are at least mentioned frequently. It's almost a glaring absence, every single Grandmaster of a School in the Ordeal except for Iyokus (until his only and last scene) has a minor role.

A couple of ideas on why this might have been:

1. He knows too much.  As things turned out, Kellhus' experiments with the Daimos ended up being pretty important to the story.  So providing his perspective might have been too much a tip of the hat. 

2. Optics.  Of all Kellhus' atrocities, none were more concerning to his flock than his experiments with the Daimos.  The Decapitants in particular were hard to square with his role as Prophet.   So it might have made sense to keep Iyokus at arms' length.

Quote

Not a measure but an operator.  Transforming all frames to zero.

Well, from the non-mathmatical aspect, a frame is the perspective.

Quote

I've fallen into the classic trap of thinking of matrices (frames) as things rather than operators!  Frames are operators on what, though -- observable phenomena? Existence? What is the operand?

If Frames, then, are the perspective, then they operate on perception.  Even more to the point though, they operative on the subjective valuation of perceiving (i.e. consciousness?).  So, the Cubit, is the ultimate Frame, because it is the perception of the thing, from the thing, because all things are one thing, no thing, the Zero thing.  There is no distance, Subject and Object are the same.

Yes; operator = ZG and operand = perspective.

Quote from: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 31, 2018, 08:54:34 pm

Quote from: TheCulminatingApe on May 31, 2018, 08:27:27 pm

Not sure really.

We have Domyot, the capital of Zeum, which is the Black Iron City (and built close to a Non-Man Mansion)
We have the Black Iron Seat of Ishterebinth, created when a set of gates were blasted with the Sun Lance.
We have the No God with its Sarcophagus, sometimes described as being of black iron.

Is this just a coincidence?

Out of world, we have the "Black Iron Prison" of Philip K Dick, which as I understand it is a description of the material world and the systems which prevent people going beyond it, to something more spiritual.  I've never read anything by Dick, so I might be barking up the wrong tree, but it does sound quite Consulty to me.

Interesting, you might be on to something there! Though it may be a while until we find out what is (potentially) special about Zeüm.

A further point on Zeum.  Memgowa, the originator of the 'blind beggar brain' , which as far as I know, is the in world equivalent of Bakker's 'blind brain theory' was Zeumi.  On the assumption that he has left an intellectual legacy in Zeum, there may be people there that have a better chance of understanding what the No-God is there, than there are elsewhere

Excellent observation!  I don’t think we ever got a sense of how the Zeumi even think about the Apocalypse.  The idea of ending the cycle of birth seems like it would throw a big wrench in the whole idea of ancestor worship.

Quote from: H on May 30, 2018, 11:49:41 am

Indeed, I mean, what is left in the Three Seas to return to?

If Akka's aim is to be a "modern day Seswatha" I don't know that there is much left in in the former Empire.  I mean, I always hypothesized that the Great Ordeal robbing the Empire of it's strength was part of it's narrative role.  Now, it is clear why.  So, what's left?  No nobility, no military strength.

Zeüm has it's own troubles.  The Fanim are probably the best hope, really.  Perhaps that is the role of Meppa and so Mimara.  He "vision" is probably as close to a real prophet of the Solitary God as has ever existed (Fane included).

There's still a fair chance that they'll return, find what people they can to join them (before the No-God gets to them) and then move everyone to a safer place. Maybe Zeüm, assuming someone can handle the Malowebi demon (whose only target was the royal family - granted, this is likely going to result in many casualties among the Mbimayu as they try to stop him).

That's a good point about the Great Ordeal. Always a risk when you take almost all of the capable warriors and mages available along with you (not that Kellhus cared). This is more of a problem in the case of the sorcerers/witches, as it seemed like Kellhus really took almost every single one of them along with him on the Ordeal (presumably even not "almost" in the case of the witches, I doubt there were any left behind).
I figure that the only sorcerers potentially left by now in the Three Seas (not counting the ones who might have escaped the "salt and butchery" at the end) would be either elderly ones no longer physically capable of travelling with the Ordeal (such as say, Nautzera, if he's still alive?) or very young, very unexperienced (likely not even fully trained) ones.
As armies go, they are very depleted on that regard, but then I remembered Nurbanu JoeZe led a contingent of Jekki in the Ordeal. I'd guess that said contingent wasn't particularly large, so maybe going to Jekhia wouldn't be a waste of time? (again, geography, etc., I might be spouting out complete nonsense)

I still wonder how they're going to meet up with Meppa (or Meppa with them). That will be an interesting meeting. Usually a Cishaurim would not even think of working with the likes of Akka and co. (not to mention the woman who directly attacked him with a Chorae...), but these are desperate circumstances, after all.
I can't even remember where Meppa was the last time we saw him...was it Iothiah? Could Kellhus have "stashed" him somewhere else before he went to get Esmenet and Kelmomas at Momemn?

Meppa was last seen in Fanayal's tent outside of Momemn.  Which shortly thereafter was quaked and flooded.  But I agree that he still has a part in this story and really like the idea of him being a latter-day Fane. 

On the Malowebi-demon causing trouble for Zeum, I'm not so sure it's going to happen.  For one, it's a really long way from Momemn to Zeum -- thousands of miles overland through inhospitable territory or a fairly long sea voyage.  And for two, who's to say whether the Cant binding head to body would last beyond Kellhus' death -- it seemed like Iyokus' death effectively freed the Ciphrang he'd summoned at Golgatterath. 

That's not to say all will be well in Zeum.  The NG's presence means that Kellhus was right about the threat from Golgatterath.  And that their Successor-Prince is either dead or in great peril.  I'm actually curious whether the NG's advent would cause Zeum to send ships to try and rescue Zsoronga?  Could be how Akka and co make it to Zeum.