“We fought them for years.”
“The Survivor carried me in,” he said. “The Survivor walked me out. The Logos has always burned brightest within him. None among the brethren stood so close to the Absolute as he.”
Quote“We fought them for years.”
Holy shit, just imagine...
These 5 words pack so much into them.
The spoor of a thousand mortal battles, of a Dûnyain in extremis, pursuing the intangible lines of survival and triumph through countless threshing swords, playing the margins of his own flesh, ignoring all but the most lethal incisions, so that he might kill and kill and overcome... Endure.
The Consult have had this one in the bag for the last couple of centuries at least, why on Earwa have they been waiting for mankind to muster its forces and cut their way into Mordor?
SJ on question 3 I think it was simply them looking for long enough, if the child remembers going into the underground and coming out, then this happened in the 5 or so years. At the end of the warrior prophet they began to look and in the thousandfold thought Cnaiur the Consult Ishual is in the mountains, then it took maybe 15 years of searching for them to find it.Akka can probably teach him the gnosis in a few weeks, then they can go anywhere ;)
Will the identity of child be revealed? He could be a cousin or even grandchild of Kellhus, I think he is being overlooked because of the awesomeness of Koringhus.
I wonder why Koringhus is the survivor? Was he the only fully trained Dunyain, and the child is not considered a full Dunyain sort of like a padawan.
On the question of Koringhus it is said that the Dunyain push each generation to the very limits of their ability and that is why they progress, if Kellhus was the greatest Dunyain ever in terms of skills and his son is considered the closest to the Absolute then maybe Koringhus is superior to Kellhus. But where can this merry band go? I doubt to Isheteribinth and the three seas is to far, so the great ordeal would seem the only option.
Mimara has two chorae on her, so he's not clear of danger at all.Oh hell, that's a good point.
Akka should be fine. He's got skin wards as well as the spherical ones. As long he's not touch Mimara he should be fine.Mimara has two chorae on her, so he's not clear of danger at all.Oh hell, that's a good point.
Akka should be fine. He's got skin wards as well as the spherical ones. As long he's not touch Mimara he should be fine.Mimara has two chorae on her, so he's not clear of danger at all.Oh hell, that's a good point.
Mimara OTOH, is in much more danger.
Akka should be fine. He's got skin wards as well as the spherical ones. As long he's not touch Mimara he should be fine.Mimara has two chorae on her, so he's not clear of danger at all.Oh hell, that's a good point.
Mimara OTOH, is in much more danger.
I was meaning the Dunyain getting the Chorae off her to use on Akka. It's not like he can't play a long game if needed to get it.
I was meaning the Dunyain getting the Chorae off her to use on Akka. It's not like he can't play a long game if needed to get it.Oh I thought you meant he can't protect her with those on so they're still vulnerable.
But since we know the world conspires I think the child will be very important, going off my theory that Ishual is Gondolin and the bloodline that defeated Morgoth came from there. The fact that the child has one hand may be a nod to Beren One Handed who stole a Simaril from Morgoth crown.
This book is going to be something else. Madness wasn't joking when he said i'll need to read all of it in the bath.
Man, so much to process in so little words. First off, from these two excerpts it definitely seems as if Bakker has hit his stride as an author. Its just so Damn good, and he's able to pack so much meaning in every sentence. Its gonna be a great ride.
I have to say though, I've seen a detail mentioned before that is becoming more and more salient to me: if there are so many Sranc in the North, so many that between the Dunyain, the scalpers, the Great Ordeal, there's still an incomprehensibly vast amount of them... By all rights the Sranc should have eradicated mankind a long, long time ago. If there's an entire subspecies of them dedicated to leading their roving bands, if the Erratics under the Consult have mustered a great many of them as an army, then even despite the No-God's absence I just can't think of why they've taken so long to reduce the population to 144k. The Consult have had this one in the bag for the last couple of centuries at least, why on Earwa have they been waiting for mankind to muster its forces and cut their way into Mordor?
I don't think the Consult are in command of the Sranc. That's what they need the No-God for. It possesses all the Sranc, and nowadays that would be automatic victory. The Consult, unaided, can't herd enough Sranc together to defeat human armies with School support.
Odium, it seems the Consult long ago abandoned that track. They did that against the Nonman, open warfare, and lost. They did it again with sranc, and lost, beaten back to Golgotterath. They did it a third time during the 1st apocalypse, even before they had the No-God. They released the No-God to have absolute control over the horde, and lost.
To many times they have thought they had insurmountable odds. How could they lose with all their might? The Tekne, their own magics, sranc/weapon-races, later the Quya on their side...
They probably think the God's against them, or at the very least they don't want to risk losing. They turned to skin-spies and slowly made Men forget. They have been subverting Earwa in a much different way this time around, until Kellhus came along and brought the war to them.
I think you're right that part of it is just having this little bit to analyze leads to much greater focus on it then if we got the whole book.
I'm not really criticizing him more sharing my preferences.
For me the thing that stuck out is when Mimara suddenly seeing the Truth(well as much as the judging eye is truth) of Kellhus, and her first thought it to warn her mother. Really jarring and showing how deeply it affected her.
Well regarding the whale mothers I think some of it is our world doesn't have gods or sorcerers but it does have human genetics. So people can pick up on that as being unrealistic. Your right Bakker does have an out with nonmen genetics, but it didn't sit well with me regardless of that. For one it seems to be getting rid of realism in favor of horror the Dunyain are efficient and amoral, and if the women are Dunyain as well there is no reason to restrain them and furthermore knowing what we know of human biology keeping women in such conditions is not conducive to a healthy pregnancy and bringing a child to term.
For me the thing that stuck out is when Mimara suddenly seeing the Truth(well as much as the judging eye is truth) of Kellhus, and her first thought it to warn her mother. Really jarring and showing how deeply it affected her.
TEASING
Well regarding the whale mothers I think some of it is our world doesn't have gods or sorcerers but it does have human genetics. So people can pick up on that as being unrealistic. Your right Bakker does have an out with nonmen genetics, but it didn't sit well with me regardless of that. For one it seems to be getting rid of realism in favor of horror the Dunyain are efficient and amoral, and if the women are Dunyain as well there is no reason to restrain them and furthermore knowing what we know of human biology keeping women in such conditions is not conducive to a healthy pregnancy and bringing a child to term.
Lots of assumptions there. At what point has the surface of what has been revealed remained clear throughout the series? Good/bad/damned/saved... Things don't ever seem to be what they are in TSA.
The women aren't necessarily prisoners, or unwilling participants. Other options exist.
Their sexual dimorphism is not ridiculous given IRL biology (See bakker's comments on the subject on TPB).
People take their past experience and apply it to current situations, the problem is that, like here, if you have a deep understanding (say, of biology) you might see this as perfectly reasonable, but if all you've got is what you remember from high school biology a decade ago, you might think its impossible. Sometimes it works vice versa though.
Lots of TSA is about letting the story challenge you and your assumptions, science and religion included.
I'll admit I thought it seemed impossible as I read it, but I've found that it can pretty easily be explained away within the confines of Earwa Lore and/or IRL science. However, I didn't come upon the solution myself. I needed to discuss it with others.
Unfortunately, when you've got a small in-group and narrow conversation lines (ie a few active participants and one single forum thread...), the assumptions and conclusions of the few will seem to be the general consensus of the many, while simultaneously shutting down constructive conversations and abstract thinking.
Speaking broadly, for those that don't WANT there to be a possible explanation, then no amount of evidence will convince otherwise - even if an answers is served to them directly from the author. The need to be personally 'right' is more important than the story itself.
For those interested in maintaining suspension of disbelief so that they can continue to enjoy the series, suitable answers can be found. The latter being far more difficult than former.
Honestly though, for me, in the end its a fantasy series with magic and gods, space faring aliens and laser guns. Limiting what can happen in Earwa based on what's reality in present day Earth seems crazy. Why bother reading fantasy/sci-fi then? If you're interested enough, a suitable reason within the book, any book, should exist to explain whatever situation (if the book was written with care).
For me the thing that stuck out is when Mimara suddenly seeing the Truth(well as much as the judging eye is truth) of Kellhus, and her first thought it to warn her mother. Really jarring and showing how deeply it affected her.
TEASING
META-TEASING
And as always, with the answers, we get more questions:
...
2. If the Dunyain are ev-il, who's side are they on? TJE views the Dunyain as monsters and as mentioned above, so does Kellhus in Chapter 1. But they sure don't seem to be aligned with the Consult.
“These voices,” Moënghus said with slow deliberation, “what do they say of me?”
His father, Kellhus realized, had finally grasped the principles of this encounter. Moënghus had assumed that his son would be the one requiring instruction. He had not foreseen it as possible, let alone inevitable, that the Thousandfold Thought would outgrow the soul of its incubation—and discard it. “They warn me,” Kellhus said, “that you are Dûnyain still.”
One of the captive skin-spies convulsed against its chains, vomited threads of spittle into the pit below. “I see. And this is why I am to die?”
Kellhus looked to the haloes about his hands. “The crimes you’ve committed, Father … the sins … When you learn of the damnation that awaits you, when you come to believe, you will be no different from the Inchoroi. As Dûnyain, you will be compelled to master the consequences of your wickedness. Like the Consult, you will come to see tyranny in what is holy … And you will war as they war.”
I disagree with your conclusion.
"as Dunyain, you will be compelled to master the consequences of your wickedness..."
To me, the implication is simply dominance over circumstance. The end might be the same, some machination designed to kill or shut out the gods, but in my mind, this would necessarily mean the destruction of the Consult as well. A Dunyain wouldn't suffer them to live. They hold too much power and mystery, and are probably indomitable in the timeframe of a single human lifetime.
It appears that I am Will Smith from I Am Legend and this place is New York, the only action is on the arc giveaway thread.
A lot of the regulars have read the ARC, and are discussing it in their secret forum, may the scripture that comes remember them as "Shikol's thigh boners"
There is like 3 of us who have abstained so you're left with our shitty chat till TGO comes out :)
Well I shall pray to Ajokli that I might smite mine enemies, to hell with them and their secret forum. I don't think their that cool anyway, I didn't really want talk about the book.
I have to say though, I've seen a detail mentioned before that is becoming more and more salient to me: if there are so many Sranc in the North, so many that between the Dunyain, the scalpers, the Great Ordeal, there's still an incomprehensibly vast amount of them... By all rights the Sranc should have eradicated mankind a long, long time ago. If there's an entire subspecies of them dedicated to leading their roving bands, if the Erratics under the Consult have mustered a great many of them as an army, then even despite the No-God's absence I just can't think of why they've taken so long to reduce the population to 144k. The Consult have had this one in the bag for the last couple of centuries at least, why on Earwa have they been waiting for mankind to muster its forces and cut their way into Mordor?
Hm. I think I get it now. Salvation and damnation are identical. Not just in the Outside, but in the real world. Dunyain or the God vs. the Consult? What's the difference? They both hollow people out and turn them into instruments of their own uses. Shaeonanra's hosts and the whale-mothers. A lot more to compare there than to contrast.Sorry? Unless I misunderstand you, you're saying Kellhus is good? The Dunyain are damned t'fuck. Kellhus is described as doom incarnate. Them and the Consult aren't opposite sides of the good evil spectrum. They're both definitely on the "evil" side.