A buddy and I were talking about the end of White Luck Warrior lately, and we discovered that we'd both jumped to totally different conclusions about who had destroyed the Dunyains monastery.
So what do y'all say?
A: Kellhus
B: The Consult
C: Other?
C: Batman!
Could be a fake - Kellhus sends a dream through and the Dunyain realise they've gotta go find another evil laboratory to work in.
Given it was ruined rather than obliterated, I'm guessing Consult.
The map case was broken. Are these ruins even the monastery they were looking for?
These may not be the droids they where looking for.
I can't decide who done it myself.
There was "Doom," though...
I'm still going with the Dunyain did it to themselves - though I like the elegance of Wutteat scorching them as he flies back to his Masters. The world, after all, is not dead.
The Dunyain did it themselves. Sort of like burning the ships on the beach... there's no going back.
It's the Cish.
Feels good to say too.
There are probably some here that would say it was Moenghus senior, but I am not one of those people.
I bet on Moe, who guided Kellhus to the safety of Leweth's hut, and destroyed the Dunyain during the 2-3 days that Kellhus was paralyzed, captivated by watching WATER flow in a creek.
I do love the idea that Moe destroyed the Dunyain and established there a colony of Dunyainic Cishaurim.
The roots of Ishual go DEEP, Akka and Mimara will arrive at the mansion of Ishteribinth from Below.
Quote from: lockesnowI do love the idea that Moe destroyed the Dunyain and established there a colony of Dunyainic Cishaurim.
I like that kind of speculation, but wonder how you'd present it narratively without the explanation feeling like a Scooby-Doo reveal. Although, to be fair, Bakker pulled off that kind of chatter-heavy exposition at the end of TTT by bouncing between POVs, then cycling back to Mo and Kellhus.
Now, remind me why we don't think Moenghus really died? Something about a Cishaurim face projection? I'm obviously late to the party.
I hope they roam the thousand halls beneath, just destroyed it to look like a fake ruins to Consult and anybody.
Hopefully they are there. Anyway who would take on an army of level 0 Dunyain monks who empty handed can stand up to Nonmen of old and win.
Comeon.
Willem, you should probably spend some time in Moenghus is a lying liar who lies[/b] (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/moenghus-is-a-lying-liar-who-lies-t1230473.html) ;).
No one knows about the Dunyain capabilities except those who know too much.
Someone stumbling upon them is either asleep or awake.
To be quite honest, I figure the Dunyain set about to make it look like Ishual was destroyed or abandoned right after Kellhus left. Philosopher-King Dunyain are all "Fuck, our seclusion keeps getting busted (all of twice). Now that all Moenghus' buddies commited seppuku, we should make it look like Ishual is abandoned."
Yeah, they may have figured that the intrusions require the location to be known (granted, perhaps also the specific person, and all those Moe knew went and killed themselves).
Hey, that's a point, the dreams - can you send them to regular folk?
If not, how many of the flipping Dunyain are the few?
Was thinking the same thing last night, Madness.
There's also the possibility that the dunyain pragma's are playing a much deeper game than anyone realises.
The way the above ground structures have been razed suggests either many seige engines, sorcery or dragons did the job...
I think Akka might find an old dunyain left to feed us some info-crumbs within the below-ground mansion.
It'd be sick if the unmasking room remains.
Actually baring something unusual like breaking free, they'd probably have starved to death.
But meeting someone without a face in the ruins - seems a likelyhood given the series!
Actually, that'd probably be a good scene... bunch of skeletons forced into fixed positions within a circle - Achamian would certainly realize that that's how the Dunyain trained Kellhus to read faces and emotions.
+1, Curethan, for actual Dunyain/Achamian encounter - also, TJE/Dunyain encounter.
Not sure what the clues would be? dried leather on the bodies, but not the face? Seems too subtle for Akka to pick up on, he's not that smart...oh, that's where Mimara comes in! Mimara with her named magic swords! She got loot! LOOOOOT!
Do we know for sure that the all the Dunyain showed up to Ishual to find that boy?
We're sure of nothing, Garet. So many questions.
Quote from: Garet JaxDo we know for sure that the all the Dunyain showed up to Ishual to find that boy?
Nope. Everything in the text is subject to multiple interpretations and can be considered fallible. Not much is known for fact.
Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't Ishual initially kept hidden by a glamour? The validity of that statement may undermine all I'm about to put forth but speculating is what we do. If the sanctuary was indeed hidden by a glamour in the beginning I would suggest that either the extinction of its residents left no one to maintain it, or that some of those first Dunyain to discover it were of the Few. If the latter is the case that might shed some light on the number of the Few among the current Dunyain population. Now I can't remember what the likelihood of being one of the Few is, or if paternity has a propensity towards repetition, but I would imagine that two thousand years of selective inbreeding would heighten the probability of being on of the Few. Might it be the case that nearly all of Dunyain can perceive the Onta but simply in their seclusion have no concept of sorcery? Perhaps the Pragmas are aware and capable of minor sorcery, particularly maintaining the glamour surrounding Ishual, this could be corroborated by Callan's point: can only the Few receive dreams? All that said brings me to the suggestion I wished to make all along, supposing that my initial claim is true, perhaps the ruins are simply a glamour. But having written that I'm immediately struck by a contradiction, Akka should be able to see through it. Maybe his grief over discovering ruins has clouded his vision..
It makes for a lot more mystery and convoluted plot if Ishual has truly been destroyed though which seems more Bakkerian than simple misdirection. Thoughts?
I don't remember anything about a glamour at Ishual , it is hidden by natural means like the glacier.You probably got confused with Min-Uroikas which was hidden by a glamour cast by Nonmen.
Quote from: MadnessWe're sure of nothing, Garet. So many questions.Don't be so sure....
Wait, does that even make sense?
Quote from: Callan S.Quote from: MadnessWe're sure of nothing, Garet. So many questions.Don't be so sure....
Wait, does that even make sense?
Reminds me of the prequel to Avatar...
Batty Koda: Only fools are positive.
Zak: Are you sure?
Batty Koda: I'm positive...
Back on topic.
Not sure who knocked Ishual down, but one thing is certain.
If Akka and Mim had arrived a few months later they would have found a McDonalds.
Suppose Mek was headed to destroy Ishual when we experience him crossing paths with Kellhus in the prologue of Darkness. Imagine the shift in perspective if it was destroyed twenty years ago
QuoteI don't remember anything about a glamour at Ishual , it is hidden by natural means like the glacier.You probably got confused with Min-Uroikas which was hidden by a glamour cast by Nonmen.
You're probably right. I think I was mistaking the two now that you mention the other.
Although the Nonmen must have been involved or at least known of Ishual given the speculated tunnel between it and Ishterbinth. But if that proves untrue then forget what I just said.
Quote from: CamlostSuppose Mek was headed to destroy Ishual when we experience him crossing paths with Kellhus in the prologue of Darkness. Imagine the shift in perspective if it was destroyed twenty years ago
+1. Why have Mek up there unless he's up to some evil Consulty stuff? The Inchoroi don't seem to know of the Dunyain's existence until the emergence of Anasurimbor Kellhus, though, so I'm hesitant to throw my weight behind Mek as the destroyer of Ishual -- at least at that point in the story.
What would he be up to, though? Why would Bakker have it be Mek instead of "nameless Non-man"?
Quote from: MeynaQuote from: CamlostSuppose Mek was headed to destroy Ishual when we experience him crossing paths with Kellhus in the prologue of Darkness. Imagine the shift in perspective if it was destroyed twenty years ago
evil Consulty stuff
Thats quite possible. Not as poetic as the dragon that Akka awoke destroying is final goal (does that fall under world conspires? I still dont get that), but and interesting idea. Maybe Mek found Ishual, or more likey a nameless Citadel, and blew it up with his gnosis powers, never mentions it to the Consult. Then the Consult find Kell and have no clue where to start looking because the only thing they can find up north is a big heap of smoking ruins, so they go searching to the west.
:lol: evil Consulty stuff.
QuoteThe Inchoroi don't seem to know of the Dunyain's existence until the emergence of Anasurimbor Kellhus, though, so I'm hesitant to throw my weight behind Mek as the destroyer of Ishual -- at least at that point in the story.
Good point. How long do you think it would take an Erratic to find a hidden location? Two thousand years lol?
Khellus killed Mek's elju. Whatever he was doing, can't see that it got finished.
We'll have a better idea as soon as Akka gets to the ruins.
Dragon sign is hard to miss (the 3 scratches from Sauglish) and would indicate the Consult.
Sorcery should also be readily apparent and would probably indicate Kellhus did it.
Reasoning is that the Consult would be very cautious about a frontal assault or risking their magic users after their experiences with Moe and Kell.
A simple assault with Sranc and Bashrag would have likely failed at first and I don't see them as that great at sustained seigecraft.
Just keep sending in more zerglings and eventually the bunker full of firebats protecting the siege tanks will break and you can get in. It just costs the lives of innumerable lings but whatever, they are cheap and easy to replace.
(anyone else see the seas of sranc like zerglings? maybe i've played too much starcraft)
Quote from: CamlostAlthough the Nonmen must have been involved or at least known of Ishual given the speculated tunnel between it and Ishterbinth. But if that proves untrue then forget what I just said.
Camlost, I've debated this with Dean more often than you can imagine. He's surprisingly well read - if only obsessively trying to find Bakker's continuity errors... LMAO!
That being said, I have to hand it to them, except Kellhus' comparison of the Nonmen Mansion beneath Kyudea there is no textual evidence for the Thousand Thousand Halls being an extension of a Mansion or that Ishual was built on one - in fact, the evidence - I think he's got three pieces, if I recall correctly - points towards the Dunyain building it themselves for training purposes... though clearly, lying to initiates is Dunyain Teaching 101.Quote from: Meyna+1. Why have Mek up there unless he's up to some evil Consulty stuff?
+3, I think, evil Consulty stuff! Because that was always the plan :D.
Clearly, Mekeritrig is up to something - I've often wondered if Ishterebinth would hazard another returned traitor from the Inchoroi but it's possible Cet'ingira went to sway the Nonmen to the Consult? To reveal Nil'giccas' lie/omission, finally?Quote from: WilshireNot as poetic as the dragon that Akka awoke destroying is final goal (does that fall under world conspires? I still dont get that), but and interesting idea.
+1 Wutteat - as Curethan said, it'll be super obvious, if that's the case.
The World Conspires, to me, Wilshire - though, I'm not sure others share my hesitancy - is simply Fate Conspires. Mostly, the evidence aside the rationalizing, is this: "The world has its own ways, sockets so deep that not even the Gods can dislodge them. No urn is so cracked as Fate. - ASANSIUS, THE LIMPING PILGRIM" (WLW, p184)
I believe that is our only epigram by Asansius in the series, thus far, an anomaly like Ganus the Blind. I think Callan started the thread asserting that whenever something comes across as narrative conceit ("that would only happen in a book, or that's an irregular plot-jump"), we can blame it on Fate conspiring, playing her own mad game. This epigram also suggests to me that Fate is something akin to Ajokli.Quote from: CurethanWe'll have a better idea as soon as Akka gets to the ruins.
Where'd you find your speculative zen ;)? TELL ME WHAT YOU SEE!Quote from: CurethanA simple assault with Sranc and Bashrag would have likely failed at first and I don't see them as that great at sustained seigecraft.
Quote from: WilshireJust keep sending in more zerglings and eventually the bunker full of firebats protecting the siege tanks will break and you can get in. It just costs the lives of innumerable lings but whatever, they are cheap and easy to replace.
(anyone else see the seas of sranc like zerglings? maybe i've played too much starcraft)
Spot on oh Brother!
Bunkers and tanks were cool, nothing moves past them if you had Orion fleet hovering. Unless of course there was a Ghost with nuke coming. ANd then the russian Orion captn was pretty cool.
You play SC2 at all, coobek?
Zerging sranc seem unlikely to strike the citadel's bulwarks to their foundations. Or however it is described.
Plus you have to factor in that the Dunyain can take instant tech advances as needed. (I don't SC - sorry if that doesn't mesh with the anology).
Other option is that the Dunyain might just top themselves or hightail it when they see that contamination is inevitable. Again, no massive destruction results.
I think it kinda had to be a shock and awe offensive with a LOT of raw power. Ergo; dragons, daimotic or meta-gnostic sorcery.
Quote from: MadnessYou play SC2 at all, coobek?
Nope. Just SC1. Didn't play much after my first child was born at all. No time for that.
Lol, there are worse reasons to stop playing video games ;). Congrats on parenthood many, or not so many, seasons ago.
4 seasons. An now double jeopardy for 1 season.
LOL! Congrats a second time then.
QuoteCamlost, I've debated this with Dean more often than you can imagine. He's surprisingly well read - if only obsessively trying to find Bakker's continuity errors... LMAO!Are we talking Dean from creative writing class?
Madness you've mention on a number of occasions that you feel Dagliash will be analogous to Helm's Deep much like Cil'Aujas was to the Mines of Moria. How close do you think Bakker will adhere to that model? Do you think we'll see Dagliash on the brink of capture and our resident Wizard showing up in the nick of time with an army of Nonmen at his back? It feels somewhat likely to me, at the very least it makes for a convenient rally location for joining the Ordeal.
One and the same.
I remember reading Cil'Aujas and being physically jarred by the reading experience. The ideas expressed were so Tolkien to me, despite the fact that Cil'Aujas is two chapters and Moria is a couple pages. Then I realized that this is something of Bakker's jab and the point. He's playing our connotations - he just happens to have such wicked awesome prose ;).
I almost hazard that the Ordeal will take Daglish with nigh a loss.
Then... Caraskand, Consult-style :twisted:...
While Achamian spends most of the book diffusing whatever is going on at Ishterebinth so that the Quya Chariots may ride to the aid of the Great Ordeal. Seriously... my head may explode.
Ièm glad he made it through Darkness. It can be a bit much for some, enough to put them off TSA.
I personally savour the Illiadic style of his battle scenes. One of the things I disliked about the Malazan series is that you only ever saw a battle from a squadès point of view..
This is getting a little away from the topic at hand though, so... How populated is the Ancient North these daysÉ I guess Ièm wondering why the Consult wouldnèt have taken control of any ground that might be remotely advantageous to Kellhus and the Ordeal. Sure they canèt contest them everywhere but certainly they have some extra Sranc they could throw at them at the whole of the way, widdle down and demoralize the Ordeal before they are even confronted with a real battle, something to challenge the conviction that Kellhus has installed in them
The ancient north seems pretty sparsely populated except by sranc. But...
I'm curious how tribes like Aengleas' managed to survive (at least until the end of TWP)...
Quote from: CamlostI personally savour the Illiadic style of his battle scenes.+2 :D. And roam free topic-wise, Camlost, we can always move posts to new threads. Its organic.
+1 Curethan.
Quote from: MadnessOne and the same.
I remember reading Cil'Aujas and being physically jarred by the reading experience. The ideas expressed were so Tolkien to me, despite the fact that Cil'Aujas is two chapters and Moria is a couple pages. Then I realized that this is something of Bakker's jab and the point. He's playing our connotations - he just happens to have such wicked awesome prose ;).
Yeah - I felt like TJE was the weakest book overall but for the finale....
...and I"m still recovering from it.
Run
Amen. TJE was the weakest book - unfortunate that it seems to enjoy the most readership of people who don't like Bakker's writing.
Maybe Kellhus destroyed Ishaul, but not as a means to kill the remaining Dunyain. Perhaps it was to force and ultimatum of sorts.
Kellhus could convince the Dunyain that he was still sane, and that he had found a way to actually complete their centuries old project soon (via sorcery, Diamotic or otherwise, via Tekne or IF, something along those lines). Then, as a way to provoke them either to come with him or die, he blew up their home and told them to follow him in his ordeal.
I'm still thinking they've just abandoned the place. Or retreated forever into the Thousand Thousand Halls.
Gah! Maybe the No-God is the reader.... when Bakker tells us that TSTSNBN is a myth. To be fair, I read PON twice thinking that that was the story.
I thought Bakker was the most audacious fucking author ever.
I've come around to the 'underground batcave' theory
The only thing that turns me off this theory is that Bakker's hinted at the Ishual being done with after that first chapter. Long enough for Achamian to find a living Dunyain society? Blinding them with his sorcerous light. Wow... creepy. Dunyain Gollums.
what will the cants of compulsion do to a dunyain?
Hmm... Lol. Give Achamian Dunyain puppets :shock:?!
Could the dunyain come before the Cants of Compulsion?
Hm... Not without some prior knowledge of sorcery, if its even possible.
Kellhus came before the inchoroi compulsions, why not sorcery?
I'm not sure they try the Cants of Compulsion on Kellhus - Aurang tries a Galmour when compulsing Esmenet, to which Kellhus responds with a "Dara Ward," neh?
Someone is going to have too look it up, but I'm pretty sure he used a compulsion cant on Esmi. Afterwards she complained about being conflicted because she couldn't distinguish between her own thoughts and Aurang's thoughts. I'm not sure what Aurang tries to do to Kellhus though, just that he momentarily loses control and the avoids it somehow.
"The ward was simple - one of the first Achamian had taught him - an ancient Kuniuric Dara, proof against what were called incipient sorceries. His words racked the sultry air. For a moment the light of his eyes shone across her skin ... Achamian had told him of this creature, that its capacities would be largely restricted to glamours, compulsions, and possessions. The great shout that was its true form, the Schoolman had said, could be heard only as whispers and insinuations at such a distance" (TTT, p312).
Did you watch the movie '300'? Isn't it Dunyains against the anybody?
And just to continue the movie analogy - Marv from Sin City is almost perfect Cnauir.
First couple times I read PON, I misread that Cnaiur had hair... I think I made the one hero at the beginning of Troy, which was a big hit around my place when I found PON, a connotation for Cnaiur, misattributing characteristics.
Mickey Rourke eh? He'd be good - Basically, him in Iron Man 2 or Immortals as Cnaiur?
Does Cnaiur not have hair?
Cnaiur has hair. Lol.
guys i have a question about the Dunyain. I decided to read the series again to get pumped for The Unholy Consult which will hopefully come out this year. Anyways in the prologue of The Darkness That Comes Before and after Kellhus kills the sranc he confronts a Nonman. part of the prologue goes as follows " beneath the cloak, the man was powerfully built, heavily armoured, and from the way he comported himself, entirely unafraid. 'I see that you are a student. Knowledge is power eh?.' This one was not like Leweth. Not at all."- did the nonman's comment suggest he knows about the dunyain?? if that was the case wouldnt the Consult know as well?? someone help
Quote from: The Tiger of EumarnaDid the nonman's comment suggest he knows about the dunyain?? if that was the case wouldnt the Consult know as well?? someone help
I don't believe anyone at the time knew who the Dunyain were. OTOH, Kellhus did know who the Nonman was either. Here's a couple links I found that may give you a better understanding than I did.
http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/mekeritrig-t1272694.html (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/mekeritrig-t1272694.html)
http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Cet%27ingira (http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Cet%27ingira)
Welcome to the forums!
Tiger, I figure that the Nonmen is commenting on Kellhus' obvious training and ability; first in killing Mekeritrig's Sranc then by Kellhus' composure and perception - and ultimately, ignorance - in proximity of a Nonman: who we know as of TAE are not be fucked with.
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse ;).
Thanks! and i believe that the Dunyain are still alive. Im just guessing that the cloaked man at the start of the judging eye was dunyain and that the dunyain escaped destruction
The Consult would have to be extremely stupid/shortsighted to destroy the Dunyain, IMO. As Kellhus points out to his father in TTT, any Dunyain exposed to the truth about Damnation would be compelled to pursue the same ends as the Consult.
I've never been entirely convinced of the validity of Kellhus' thoughts at the end of the Thousandfold Thought.
But then I was not expecting two conversations to climax such momentous events... And the Wizard limped on. Cooool Guuuyys waalk away from DUNYAAAIIINNNN! And don't look back.
Lol.
Quote from: MadnessI've never been entirely convinced of the validity of Kellhus' thoughts at the end of the Thousandfold Thought.Can you argue with his logic on this point, though? Being judged by an Outside entity and then subjected to an eternity without any personal agency seems antithetical to the Dunyain goal. Achieving mastery over all circumstance would seem to require a closed (i.e. closed off from the Outside) system.
Quote from: DuskweaverQuote from: MadnessI've never been entirely convinced of the validity of Kellhus' thoughts at the end of the Thousandfold Thought.Can you argue with his logic on this point, though? Being judged by an Outside entity and then subjected to an eternity without any personal agency seems antithetical to the Dunyain goal. Achieving mastery over all circumstance would seem to require a closed (i.e. closed off from the Outside) system.
Yes, with the revelation that circumstance extends beyond the mortal realm, the Dunyain would probably have to change their goal to incorporate this new set of conditions. I would think that instead of lamenting that the mortal system is not closed, they would simply extend their system to include the outside and strive to master that, too. After all, Kellhus (supposedly) ventured to the outside and performed quite well, so maybe mastery is a possibility.
Quote from: MeynaAfter all, Kellhus (supposedly) ventured to the outside and performed quite well, so maybe mastery is a possibility.But Kellhus claims to be "more [than Dunyain]".
Mastery of the Outside might indeed be theoretically possible, but closing off the World from the Outside is still the shortest path. We're talking about a group that shut themselves off from history, the reality of sorcery, and the very existence of the Outside for a couple thousand years.
First off, I doubt entirely that an entity of the Outside has actually ordained Kellhus as Fanayal, Psatma, or allegedly Fane and Sejenus. I've never boughten into the Circumfixion, that if Kellhus connected to the Outside, or been chosen by the God of Gods, it wasn't just the breaking of madness' bead, a la Achamian analogy.
There are some indications that he could communicate with a supreme entity but whether through what has come before coming all the way back or holding the next greatest abstraction, in his mind, that has ever existed in the world, giving rise to Supreme It in the world of Forms, I just don't think Kellhus or the Dunyain are there yet.
Secondly, I'm confused: why is the World to Ishual any different from the Outside to World? I mean, there is a serious break in Kellhus reasoning. Kellhus assumes he can Come Before everything, thus Conditioning Extent Reality but yet the Dunyain are not capable of this why?
In fact, Kellhus' argument rests on this shaky hinge. Why would the Dunyain decide that closing the world to the Outside would be easier rather than Conditioning the Outside too?
EDIT: And then I reread your latest, Duskweaver.
I still ain't buying. The Dunyain cannot be so enslaved by their own traditions as to not question them throughout their Project - especially to me, as I've argued in the past that the Project is doomed to failure by its seclusion unless returning to the World is a Missive.
Dunyain Nostradamus is coming ;).
Quote from: MadnessDunyain Nostradamus is coming ;).aka Dune Messiah.
iirc, Kellhus thinks in the prologue that the Dunyain taught that sorcery was superstition.
What if sorcery IS superstition?
Yeah it works, but its still superstition and because human understanding of sorcery is bound by custom, tradition, belief and other cultural baggage it is largely superstitious.
The Dunyain flattened out sorcery because the practice of it was entirely too crap to be allowed to endure. The figured since its obviously part of the world, they would rebuild it from the ground up without any of the crap. Kellhus just never got to that level. ;)
I like it another way that some Dunyain apostate in their past wrote a bunch of future predictions - like my previous assertion elsewhere that the Dunyain have a bunch of instructions in time-dated envelopes, which they open and follow periodically ;).
Do we have the quote for that in the almanac, lockesnow? There is a huge difference between Kellhus learning of sorcery from Leweth and sorcery being taught as superstition by the Dunyain.
the question is, from where and why does Kellhus know what superstition is that he labels Leweth as superstitious? I presumed that Kellhus' use of this vocabulary indicates a cultural instruction in such vocabulary, because I doubt it would be picked up from Leweth who would view his beliefs as true (and note everything he tells Kellhus is true, despite kellhus not believing him).
Or the use of superstition as a term does not indicate extra meaning or Dunyain practices and was just a writerly tactic employed by RSB to flatter the reader into agreement and identification with Kellhus. RSB wants the reader to identify with Kellhus because he plans on undermining that identification.
Kelhus is just lying liar that lies. Circumfixion bah.
He is after Tekne and he wants to be on top of Consult for the means of control. Maybe to release the No-God again.
But Storks and Seswatha/Akka will not allow it.
Quote from: MadnessFirst off, I doubt entirely that an entity of the Outside has actually ordained Kellhus as Fanayal, Psatma, or allegedly Fane and Sejenus. I've never boughten into the Circumfixion, that if Kellhus connected to the Outside, or been chosen by the God of Gods, it wasn't just the breaking of madness' bead, a la Achamian analogy.
Which is the same thing. Breaking the bead allows the outside to leak into the world through a soul. Why wouldn't an outside agency make use of this? Especially if the broken soul has attracted the interest of said agencies through profane or holy actions/intent beforehand. See Cnaiur's further musings on Akka's analogy in TTT.
You don't think Fanayal, Psatma, the Narinadar, the WLW and Kelmomas are cray cray?
Worship and belief seem just as crazy in Earwa as they do in our world. "Having faith in ignorance" ... "prizing ignorance". Bakker constantly depicts it as errant madness. The difference is that this form of insanity grants temporal power to the things outside...Quote from: coobekKelhus is just lying liar that lies. Circumfixion bah.
He is after Tekne and he wants to be on top of Consult for the means of control. Maybe to release the No-God again.
But Storks and Seswatha/Akka will not allow it.
If you consider that the Tekne would be useful for Kellhus' objectives, perhaps you should consider the way he was manipulated the Ordeal into eating Sranc - the products of the Tekne.
Add a little something-something to the water and hey presto we're applying the Tekne to his army.
Then you have Cleric and Kosoter (Kellhus' agents) forcing Qirri on Akka and Mimara. What if Cu'jara's ashes have been tampered with?
Quote from: lockesnowthe question is, from where and why does Kellhus know what superstition is that he labels Leweth as superstitious? I presumed that Kellhus' use of this vocabulary indicates a cultural instruction in such vocabulary, because I doubt it would be picked up from Leweth who would view his beliefs as true (and note everything he tells Kellhus is true, despite kellhus not believing him).
+1Quote from: CurethanWhich is the same thing. Breaking the bead allows the outside to leak into the world through a soul. Why wouldn't an outside agency make use of this? Especially if the broken soul has attracted the interest of said agencies through profane or holy actions/intent beforehand. See Cnaiur's further musings on Akka's analogy in TTT.
You don't think Fanayal, Psatma, the Narinadar, the WLW and Kelmomas are cray cray?
Worship and belief seem just as crazy in Earwa as they do in our world. "Having faith in ignorance" ... "prizing ignorance". Bakker constantly depicts it as errant madness. The difference is that this form of insanity grants temporal power to the things outside...
I don't think they are the same thing - though that is an interesting tack and perhaps something I'd not entertained because I'd not thought of it. It certainly is a prevalent bias in the Biblical World...
Lol, hmm... I will have to think about this. Shouldn't Cnaiur's perspective be ripe for examples of a God's agency? As per my arguments; Fate prompting Achamian to tell the lie about Saughlish, Sorweel's words being kicked from his lungs as Kellhus declares him Believer-King, Onkis telling Inrau to run, etc.
DOES ANYBODY KNOW WHEN THIS IS COMING OUT?? I CAN'T WAIT ANY LONGER!
Lol, I think we're all there with you, Tiger. Bakker had mentioned that he has been "camped on the outskirts of Golgotterath for awhile now, and it gets hard, sometimes, keeping things distinct, sorting the theoretical moods from the narrative, deciding what’s besieging what, and who’s storming whom," on the second last blog.
Whatever that means ;). I have a feeling the associations were meant to extend to his philosophic musings.
The number of off topic posts:(click to show/hide)
I wish I was too damn high.
My money is on Kellhus himself. He pretty much ripped apart portions of Sakarpus without breaking a sweat, so Ishual probably wouldn't have been able to withstand the meta-gnostic H-bomb he could unleash. The deeper question for me is why? The most obvious reasons have already been stated, but what about this?
The level of in-breeding that must have taken place in Ishual (a closed system) for 2,000 years would pretty much ensure that everyone's blood was mixed together. I highly doubt there would be any 'pure' bloodlines there. How could there be? And why would the dunyain care to maintain separate ones? So my postulation is that all dunyain in Ishual were, more or less, Anasurimbors. Why else would the dunyain send Moenghus out on an errand, find that he's been corrupted, then exile him. He obviously wasn't that important to the society. Then, years later, he demands his son be sent to him. Again, the dunyain send another Anasurimbor away. Anasurimbors must have been ten-a-penny in Ishual. :) So, Kellhus, not needing the headache that would come from a village of Anasurimbors 'returning at the end of the world' prompted him to wipe them all out.
Anyway, that's my crackpot theory.
My money is on Kellhus himself. He pretty much ripped apart portions of Sakarpus without breaking a sweat, so Ishual probably wouldn't have been able to withstand the meta-gnostic H-bomb he could unleash. The deeper question for me is why? The most obvious reasons have already been stated, but what about this?
The level of in-breeding that must have taken place in Ishual (a closed system) for 2,000 years would pretty much ensure that everyone's blood was mixed together. I highly doubt there would be any 'pure' bloodlines there. How could there be? And why would the dunyain care to maintain separate ones? So my postulation is that all dunyain in Ishual were, more or less, Anasurimbors. Why else would the dunyain send Moenghus out on an errand, find that he's been corrupted, then exile him. He obviously wasn't that important to the society. Then, years later, he demands his son be sent to him. Again, the dunyain send another Anasurimbor away. Anasurimbors must have been ten-a-penny in Ishual. :) So, Kellhus, not needing the headache that would come from a village of Anasurimbors 'returning at the end of the world' prompted him to wipe them all out.
Anyway, that's my crackpot theory.
Here's a crackpot theory, Anasurimbor souls are more useful than mundane souls, so Kellhus has enslaved all the souls of the Dunyain into new dread machinery (ala the gate to the library).
Also, they needn't necessarily be all Anasurimbors, though your series makes sense, Charles Stross outlines a 'braiding' system of six-ish bloodlines in his Merchant series than manages to prevent too much inbreeding by deliberately controlling who is mated with who, and maintains familial identity.
hell for the Dunyain project of breeding, family line is probably more important than any other identity, because a genetic shorthand (family name) is useful to the breeding project.
+1 Full-Dunyain Progeny of Kellhus.
One thing about the broken map case. If it were broken for 2000 years the map probably woulf have dissolved to the elements. If it were broken for 20 years it ought to be okay.This is a good observation that I've never connected before.
If the thought occurred to him, then I'd say it was probably Kellhus who blew it up, to prevent such an eventuality.
I just can't see Kellhus not finding a use for them. Any use. Even just tools or breeding stock. He clearly has need of things he can bonk successfully enough to make babies. He needs people who can manipulate others for him at a lower level when he's not around. He needs assassins. He needs spies. He needs guards (for important dudes). He needs people that can see skinspies. He needs sorcerers and being the Few seems to be genetic...so some surely must be good candidates. I just can't imagine him being so...unimaginative as to go in and kill everyone and blow everything up. Maybe he took the useful ones and destroyed the rest.
He needs assassins. He needs spies. He needs guards (for important dudes).
...
So Kellhus gives them a choice - join me or die; and the Dunyain have themselves a schism. The unreconstructed sect who refuse the new ways are destroyed so they can't strengthen the Consult; the Kellian sect come with him to the new empire and become highly placed spies and grandees in his empire.
I still love the idea that in the second paragraph of TDTCB there is the line, "no furnace hearted dragon had torn down its gates" and that this was foreshadowing the fate of Ishual, torn down by the furnace hearted father of dragons himself.
Wow. The idea that Wutteat destroyed it is hilarious.
What if Kellhus implanted a fake map in the Coffers?
No way that the map is broken in the fight! The break must mean something!Ever do the puny minds of world born men seek to find meaning and patterns in all that transpires. ;)
No way that the map is broken in the fight! The break must mean something!Ever do the puny minds of world born men seek to find meaning and patterns in all that transpires. ;)
The map was opened recently, otherwise the parchment would not have survived long unsealed and unprotected from the elements.
I had been thinking that the residual mark would tell Akka a lot about whoever attacked Ishual. But if the whole thing was done with the psukhe/markless divine magic, the perpetrators could cover their tracks by having a gnostic/anagogic/quyan go over the whole thing once the job is done.
Wherever he is, it will probably be entirely conditioned.
Asking who destroyed the monastery is like asking who killed JFK. I mean who wouldn't want them dead. The Consult has motive, Kellhus has motive, hell even the Gods have motive. It's just a matter of who got there first. My money is on Kellhus.
And if a blind dragon could find Ishual... there's a joke in there somewhere.
+1 Akka causing his own misfortune.
MG, if the anyone tried to calculate how dangerous Kellhus was before he left, I submit that they were wrong. I don't think the Dunyain in Ishual thought he would make it to Shimeh, and I think Moe thought he could use him as his pawn. Whatever Kellhus has become, I don't think anyone thought he would go so far.
oooohhhh, I hadn't thought of Ishual as freshly destroyed. Akka > Wutteat > No Ishual. Like.
As far as Kellhus regarding the Dunyain as too dangerous to be left behind:
1) Really want to see how far Bakker is going with the Plato's Republic thing in that the guardians/rulersare absolutely conditioned to act in the interest of the city.
+1 Akka causing his own misfortune.
MG, if the anyone tried to calculate how dangerous Kellhus was before he left, I submit that they were wrong. I don't think the Dunyain in Ishual thought he would make it to Shimeh, and I think Moe thought he could use him as his pawn. Whatever Kellhus has become, I don't think anyone thought he would go so far.
[EDIT]
Causing your own misfortune like Aka is a classic example of a feedback loop which humans mistakenly attribute to bad luck. Example:
You have an important appointment at work -> you don't want to be late -> you drive fast -> the police stops you for a speed limit violation -> you get delayed -> you miss the appointment.
No way the Dunyain have their own Hari Seldon Prophecy.
Like SOA mentioned, as far as we now the Dunyain don't factor in metaphysics into their causality chain. I'm saying that regardless of what the initial intent of sending Kellhus into the world was, none of them could have correctly predicted Kellhus becoming what he is. Which, imo, includes some Hari Seldon/Dunyain Nostradamus.
The only way they could have foreseen Kellhus' ascension would be if they were working closely with either the Nonmen, the Consult (extremely unlikely), a select few World-Born (also unlikely), or if they had secret Dunyain agents in the world already.
Even if the Pragma (or whatever the ruling caste is) knew about magic and the outside, I still have some doubt that they could have done it... Though I would allow for them being able to predict it all if, and only if, the end-game was to forge Kellhus into the only Self Moving Soul.
No way the Dunyain have their own Hari Seldon Prophecy.
Dunyain Nostra-Sheldon ;)!
I'll allow from within, i.e from the depth, but I can't go along with crazy breeding program. If Ishual was built on an old Mansion, its possible sranc simply (finally) made it to the surface, see: Cil'Aujas.
Read the prologue for TDTCB recently (I'm almost through the book again): the Dunyain who receive Moenghus the Elder's dream messages meet in the Thousand Thousand Halls, implying that they live and hold counsel there.
Dunyain counseling in absolute darkness does seem fitting--the dark would seem to isolate a lot of style from content. Dunyains just exchange propositions in flat voices in the dark.Reminds me of Second Foundation. They had whole meetings with groups of people without speaking words, just looking at eachother faces. You described the opposite, but to much the same effect.
Reminds me of Second Foundation. They had whole meetings with groups of people without speaking words, just looking at eachother faces. You described the opposite, but to much the same effect.
Is there a thread for listing the fiction that influenced Bakker?
I doubt it too. I think causes of the topoi at Cil Aujis, Golgotteroth and Mengedda were deliberate.
I love it! Nin'janjin is the culprit behind it all!Ah yes, that's one of Nerdanel herself's originals, I don't think we've seen any posts from her since it was revealed Cleric was NOT Nin'janjin.
So do you think TUC unfolds towards an attempt to create the perfect topoi?Mengedda Mark II.
I love it! Nin'janjin is the culprit behind it all!Ah yes, that's one of Nerdanel herself's originals, I don't think we've seen any posts from her since it was revealed Cleric was NOT Nin'janjin.
Pretty much the only reason I think its possible is because it would me Akka basically caused it himself, and I think there is just enough irony there for it to be possible. I agree, however, that it is seems more likely to have happened because someone caused it far more directly.
I just can't see Kellhus not finding a use for them. Any use. Even just tools or breeding stock. He clearly has need of things he can bonk successfully enough to make babies. He needs people who can manipulate others for him at a lower level when he's not around. He needs assassins. He needs spies. He needs guards (for important dudes). He needs people that can see skinspies. He needs sorcerers and being the Few seems to be genetic...so some surely must be good candidates. I just can't imagine him being so...unimaginative as to go in and kill everyone and blow everything up. Maybe he took the useful ones and destroyed the rest.
It seems very un-Dunyain to have a surname.
The only reason I doubt the Wutteät destroyed it theory is the feeling I have that nothing random is happening in this series. Everything has been calculated by someone somewhere If not Kellhus, then the Dunyain themselves.You say this, but many things have transpired by accident outside of Dunyain calculation. They are not Gods. They're not quite human, but they're not Gods.
I'll further that.After two thousand years of inbreeding within a likely very small and completely isolated population, it would take a tremendous concerted effort to avoid literally everyone in Ishual being a direct descendant of the original Anasurimbor in the sample. Given enough time, your descendants are either everyone, or no one (See: the tremendous number of direct descendants of Genghis Khan, a fact that is often stated as if it were somehow remarkable when it is in fact true of a great deal of historical figures of sufficient age. A tremendous number of Europeans are directly descended from Charlemagne, for example.)
Moenghus requested only one Dunyain - his son. So by both his and Kellhus' appraisal, only one is required for the purposes of TTT. Adding more Dunyain probably only serves to enlarge the chances of a struggle for primacy, evidence being Moenghus' fate.
Incidentaly, I think that it hasn't been noted by anyone that the name of Ansurimbor is probably borne by the majority of the Dunyain by the time of AM and AK because the original scion was probably prime breeding stock. Assuming that the Dunyain carefully track and control successful lines whilst limiting the effects of breeding closely related individuals (to avoid inbreeding and crazy mutations), I think it's reasonable to assume that at least 50% of them are direct descendants. I'm pretty sketchy about such things, so do correct my assumptions if you know more.
his son, being a direct blood relation, was far more likely to be one of the Few than any given random Dunyain
his son, being a direct blood relation, was far more likely to be one of the Few than any given random Dunyain
Well, I guess it depends on the naming conventions they used. A certain number of degrees of genelogical tracking where you get to be called Anasurimbor. Or perhaps a designation of natural skill level - i.e. only the elite students are "Anasurimbors'.Haha maybe you missed my post, this is pretty much what I said :P
Interesting that Moe called for his son. Given the patriachal systems of the Three Seas a male would be far more useful for TTT. But maybe Kellhus has a far more talented sister?
Oh they were inbred as hell, but still most of their numbers didn't seem to be among the Few so either those genes are fairly recessive, or something about Dunyain eugenics selected against it preferentially.How could you know most of them were not of the Few?
Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, March 2006The idea is that pertains to a certain kind of ability to remember. Since memory, like other cognitive capacities, seems to be somewhat heritable, so is the ability - but only somewhat. The thing with the Dunyain, however, is that they have spent millennia breeding for certain cognitive capacities.
I'm afraid there's not much I can say, Ikiru. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->
Also:Quote from: TDTCB, p565Kellhus blinked, and his senses leapt back into their proper proportion. How was this possible? Sorcery? If so, it possessed nothing of the strange torsion he’d experienced with the Nonman he’d battled so long ago. Sorcery, Kellhus had realized, was inexplicably grotesque — like the scribblings of a child across a work of art — though he did not know why. All he knew was that he could distinguish sorcery from the world and sorcerers from common men. This was among the many mysteries that had motivated his study of Drusas Achamian.
There's a problem there. Kellhus does describe seeing a mark on the Nonman much later in the book, remembering. Just not explicitly during that encounter. I think it's absence in that chapter was an oversight on Bakker's part.Which one? I don't recall him seeing any nonmen other than Mek in the beginning.
I think Kellhus was always one of the few and Bakker's late reveal was to keep the reader in the dark for awhile.One of the best reveals in the series so far, I think. I was pretty damn excited when Akka started puzzling it out, realizing what Kellhus' intellect could do with the Gnosis...
How could you know most of them were not of the Few?Didn't all the Dunyain that could receive Moenghus' dreams (and thus all the Dunyain that were of the Few) commit suicide? And didn't Bakker say that was like 1/3rd of them or something? This was one of those things from an interview rather than the books so I'm not sure where to find it
Thread necro, and this is probably directly contradicted by a passage in an earlier book but....maybe Ishual is just like that?
It's a 2,000+ year old castle. Given their rules about staying in one place and their (presumably) small population pool, it seems unlikely the Dûnyain would have the resources and expertise to maintain such a large structure. Especially if they destroyed any magic runes or such that might have been propping it up. Maybe they just live around and below the ruin.
Thread necro, and this is probably directly contradicted by a passage in an earlier book but....maybe Ishual is just like that?
It's a 2,000+ year old castle. Given their rules about staying in one place and their (presumably) small population pool, it seems unlikely the Dûnyain would have the resources and expertise to maintain such a large structure. Especially if they destroyed any magic runes or such that might have been propping it up. Maybe they just live around and below the ruin.
Ha! That's a good point. But I don't feel like that's the case. Kellhus turns to look at Ishual as he is leaving, but I don't remember if there was a description.
Yeah, the most probable culprit is Kellhus himself. If the Consult couldn't find it in 2000 years, I have doubts they'd find it in 20.
Why he would have destroyed it is a whole different issue. To deny Akka questioning the ones left there? Then why let Akka find the map? Then again, it could be something deeper, like Kellhus setting up what Akka will find. Could all be drawing out what Seswatha is guiding Akka towards...
Yeah, the most probable culprit is Kellhus himself. If the Consult couldn't find it in 2000 years, I have doubts they'd find it in 20.
Why he would have destroyed it is a whole different issue. To deny Akka questioning the ones left there? Then why let Akka find the map? Then again, it could be something deeper, like Kellhus setting up what Akka will find. Could all be drawing out what Seswatha is guiding Akka towards...
I agree. And if they found the map in the coffers, why read it and then leave it there for someone else.
I mentioned this in another thread. I suspect that through the probability trance, Kellhus surmised that the Dunyain would be exposed to the outside world during the SA. Dunyain, in order to master circumstance, would learn magic. They would then embrace the Consult to prevent their damnation (the precise reason Kellhus had to stop his father at the end of TTT). I think it was a risk he wasn't willing to take.
Please, raise dead threads all you like, citizensnips :).
Also, welcome to the Second Apocalypse, officially (though, it looks like you've been registered for time).
I couldn't find the quote (thought it was in this thread somewhere...) he Kellhus turns around once as he leaves Ishual and watches those on the wall leave the ramparts. Its definitely not in shambles when he walks out. It was destroyed sometime between when he turned around and when Akka/Mim finally find it.
Please, raise dead threads all you like, citizensnips :).
Also, welcome to the Second Apocalypse, officially (though, it looks like you've been registered for time).
Thanks. I was doing a reread of the series before the next book comes out and I for some reason I couldn't get a new account to register. Then I ended up trying an old email address and I found this account I made a couple years ago and never used...
I always love the of irony of the idea that Akka's fight with Wuteat led the dragon to return to golgotterath, where it passed over a random castle mountain that it burned to the ground before went on its way to Golgotterath.
One of the chapter headers from the beginning goes something like "like a hunter in thicket, the act of searching extinguishing your chance to find prey".
That or Leweth actually survived and went back to take his vengeance on Kellhus' old friends. Either or.
That or Leweth actually survived and went back to take his vengeance on Kellhus' old friends. Either or.
Continuing in a line of less probable things, there is the chance that Mek backtracked Kellhus to there, they killed everyone just for the hell of it. Pretty sure Madness thought of that at the very beginning of this thread actually.
That or Leweth actually survived and went back to take his vengeance on Kellhus' old friends. Either or.
Continuing in a line of less probable things, there is the chance that Mek backtracked Kellhus to there, they killed everyone just for the hell of it. Pretty sure Madness thought of that at the very beginning of this thread actually.
That actually seems like a reasonable explanation. I still vote it was Kellhus though. :)
It just occurred to me, and maybe someone else mentioned it, IF (big if) the Consult destroyed Ishual, there don't seem to be any bodies, which means some of the Dunyain were captured. The GO might be marching on a Consult that has an army of Dunyain sorcerers because IIRC somebody mentioned Scott said the Dunyain were inadvertently breeding for magical ability as well.
It just occurred to me, and maybe someone else mentioned it, IF (big if) the Consult destroyed Ishual, there don't seem to be any bodies, which means some of the Dunyain were captured. The GO might be marching on a Consult that has an army of Dunyain sorcerers because IIRC somebody mentioned Scott said the Dunyain were inadvertently breeding for magical ability as well.How do you know there aren't any bodies? The best place to make a stand would be within the darkness of the Thousand Thousand halls, regardless of whether or not they were attacked by someone using magics.
On the forty-third day, [Kellhus] waded across a shallow river and clambered onto banks black with ash. Weeds crowded the char blanketing the ground, but nothing else. Like blackened spears, dead trees spiked the sky. He picked his way through the debris, stung by wees where they brushed his bare skin. Finally he gained the summit of a ridge.
The immensity of the valley below struck Kellhus breathless. Beyond the fire's desolation, where the forest was still dark and crowded, ancient fortifications loomed above the trees, forming a great rung across the autumnal distances. He watched birds wheel over and around the nearer ramparts, flash across stretches of mottled stone before dipping into the canopy. Ruined walls. So cold, and so forlorn, in a way the forest could be.
At last the two of them stand side by side on the glacial summit, sucking air that never seems to nourish, gazing out across the basin of an enormous green-and-black valley.
Maybe the whole series is an analogy for global warming? I think in one of the pragma flashbacks a glacier is mentioned though, can;t be certain, maybe says something about it curving like a womans back or something.
Coincidentally, just read this during the Kell/Moe conversation:
Yes, there's no mention of the glacier in the prologue. And we know that there's a glacier leading to Ishual. But what if the map lead them to the ruins in the valley instead of Ishual?
From the very first, ever since descending the glaciers into the wastes of Kuniuri, Kellhus had pondered the man now leading him through these galleries of darkness.
Coincidentally, just read this during the Kell/Moe conversation:
Yes, there's no mention of the glacier in the prologue. And we know that there's a glacier leading to Ishual. But what if the map lead them to the ruins in the valley instead of Ishual?QuoteFrom the very first, ever since descending the glaciers into the wastes of Kuniuri, Kellhus had pondered the man now leading him through these galleries of darkness.
It just occurred to me, and maybe someone else mentioned it, IF (big if) the Consult destroyed Ishual, there don't seem to be any bodies, which means some of the Dunyain were captured. The GO might be marching on a Consult that has an army of Dunyain sorcerers because IIRC somebody mentioned Scott said the Dunyain were inadvertently breeding for magical ability as well.How do you know there aren't any bodies? The best place to make a stand would be within the darkness of the Thousand Thousand halls, regardless of whether or not they were attacked by someone using magics.
Besides, all we have seen is ishual in the distance.
Quote from: Callan S.C: Batman!
Could be a fake - Kellhus sends a dream through and the Dunyain realise they've gotta go find another evil laboratory to work in.
Given it was ruined rather than obliterated, I'm guessing Consult.
Quote from: CamlostQuoteCamlost, I've debated this with Dean more often than you can imagine. He's surprisingly well read - if only obsessively trying to find Bakker's continuity errors... LMAO!Are we talking Dean from creative writing class?
Madness you've mention on a number of occasions that you feel Dagliash will be analogous to Helm's Deep much like Cil'Aujas was to the Mines of Moria. How close do you think Bakker will adhere to that model? Do you think we'll see Dagliash on the brink of capture and our resident Wizard showing up in the nick of time with an army of Nonmen at his back? It feels somewhat likely to me, at the very least it makes for a convenient rally location for joining the Ordeal.