[Jorram]

Hi there,

I haven't really participated in the discussion here, as I rarely have the time to actively follow-up on posts but I've been reading a lot on the forum since I finished TUC. There are two thing that - to my surprise - I haven't seen being discussed and I wonder about your take on them.

(1) There hasn't to my knowledge been a very serious discussion about what the Mutilated mean when they say the No-God can read the code of Earwa by using deaths. Up to this point, the acquired wisdom has been that the No-God is a means to cut off the number of living souls and thus seal Earwa (and maybe other worlds as well) to the Outside. The entire code-reading narrative goes into an altogether different direction, signifying, at least to me, that the Ark was designed to gleam meaning from the specialness of Earwa where the Outside is closest to the physical reality and thus achieve world-sealing in some other, scientific, way.

I find it irritating that while Bakker claimed TUC would reveal or at least hint at who is right and who is wrong w/r/t understanding of Earwan metaphysics, he in fact only introduced further uncertainty. For example, Cet'inigra muses that the Oblivion approach of the Nonmen is fallacious although the text makes special effort to show that at least one Erratic does in fact escape Hell (granted, this might have been a special case, as has been discussed here). The book therefore keeps lacking clear authority on what exactly is the proper way to achieve salvation and what mechanisms allow it, and therefore fails to deliver at least on that front of Bakker's promises.

(2) More excitingly though, don't you find it highly revelatory that unlike Cnaiur/Ajokli, Mimara was in fact able to see the No-God with the Judging Eye? Literally leading to the important conclusion that the eschaton/invisibility argument doesn't extend to the God of Gods itself but just to the Hundred. I think this has immense metaphysical implications, which I am not altogether ready to summarize. It's also noteworthy that her perception of the sarcophagus didn't involve any descriptions of either damnation or salvation that have hitherto been present when she sees other entities with the Eye.

[Madness]

Welcome back to the Second Apocalypse, Jorram.

I'll probably finish reading today but I'll keep an eye out for code talk - especially given that Bakker shut down "simulation theory" on the recent r/fantasy AMA.

[profgrape]

Hi there,

I haven't really participated in the discussion here, as I rarely have the time to actively follow-up on posts but I've been reading a lot on the forum since I finished TUC. There are two thing that - to my surprise - I haven't seen being discussed and I wonder about your take on them.

(1) There hasn't to my knowledge been a very serious discussion about what the Mutilated mean when they say the No-God can read the code of Earwa by using deaths. Up to this point, the acquired wisdom has been that the No-God is a means to cut off the number of living souls and thus seal Earwa (and maybe other worlds as well) to the Outside. The entire code-reading narrative goes into an altogether different direction, signifying, at least to me, that the Ark was designed to gleam meaning from the specialness of Earwa where the Outside is closest to the physical reality and thus achieve world-sealing in some other, scientific, way.

I'm equally surprised that this hasn't been discussed more.  My best guess is that upon death, the means by which a soul travels back to the outside is somehow perceivable by Ark.  And that if enough souls are lost, the passage between the World and Outside can be identified and blocked. 

Why the first apocalypse wasn't enough death, however, is unclear.

I find it irritating that while Bakker claimed TUC would reveal or at least hint at who is right and who is wrong w/r/t understanding of Earwan metaphysics, he in fact only introduced further uncertainty. For example, Cet'inigra muses that the Oblivion approach of the Nonmen is fallacious although the text makes special effort to show that at least one Erratic does in fact escape Hell (granted, this might have been a special case, as has been discussed here). The book therefore keeps lacking clear authority on what exactly is the proper way to achieve salvation and what mechanisms allow it, and therefore fails to deliver at least on that front of Bakker's promises.

Well, in Bakker's world, revelation = hint and hint = something so obscure no one notices.  So I'm not surprised we didn't get a concrete answer to this despite his claims.

Going into TUC I was convinced that all *men* were damned.  And lo and behold, this was confirmed when Mimara looked upon Esme with TJE.  But then she saw Serwa as a Ciphrang.  So scratch that...

The only people who aren't damned are Mimara and Esme.  Who aside from looking alike, are both former prostitutes.  I'm not too familiar with Mary Magdalene's story.  Was her former occupation significant?

(2) More excitingly though, don't you find it highly revelatory that unlike Cnaiur/Ajokli, Mimara was in fact able to see the No-God with the Judging Eye? Literally leading to the important conclusion that the eschaton/invisibility argument doesn't extend to the God of Gods itself but just to the Hundred. I think this has immense metaphysical implications, which I am not altogether ready to summarize. It's also noteworthy that her perception of the sarcophagus didn't involve any descriptions of either damnation or salvation that have hitherto been present when she sees other entities with the Eye.

I agree, this is important. 

As for why TJE doesn't judge the NG, I figure this is because it's a soulless creation. 

[Sausuna]

Hi there,

I haven't really participated in the discussion here, as I rarely have the time to actively follow-up on posts but I've been reading a lot on the forum since I finished TUC. There are two thing that - to my surprise - I haven't seen being discussed and I wonder about your take on them.

(1) There hasn't to my knowledge been a very serious discussion about what the Mutilated mean when they say the No-God can read the code of Earwa by using deaths. Up to this point, the acquired wisdom has been that the No-God is a means to cut off the number of living souls and thus seal Earwa (and maybe other worlds as well) to the Outside. The entire code-reading narrative goes into an altogether different direction, signifying, at least to me, that the Ark was designed to gleam meaning from the specialness of Earwa where the Outside is closest to the physical reality and thus achieve world-sealing in some other, scientific, way.

I find it irritating that while Bakker claimed TUC would reveal or at least hint at who is right and who is wrong w/r/t understanding of Earwan metaphysics, he in fact only introduced further uncertainty. For example, Cet'inigra muses that the Oblivion approach of the Nonmen is fallacious although the text makes special effort to show that at least one Erratic does in fact escape Hell (granted, this might have been a special case, as has been discussed here). The book therefore keeps lacking clear authority on what exactly is the proper way to achieve salvation and what mechanisms allow it, and therefore fails to deliver at least on that front of Bakker's promises.

(2) More excitingly though, don't you find it highly revelatory that unlike Cnaiur/Ajokli, Mimara was in fact able to see the No-God with the Judging Eye? Literally leading to the important conclusion that the eschaton/invisibility argument doesn't extend to the God of Gods itself but just to the Hundred. I think this has immense metaphysical implications, which I am not altogether ready to summarize. It's also noteworthy that her perception of the sarcophagus didn't involve any descriptions of either damnation or salvation that have hitherto been present when she sees other entities with the Eye.

I think the code idea might just relate to how the Tekne works in general, that all things are mechanical. If we think of the universe as sort of a system (souls in, souls out, maybe souls back in or something) then the 'code' would more-so be Ark trying to understand this system through mass-death and how to shut it down. At least that was kind of how I read it, though it still raises the question of why the 144,000 if quantity of death is more important than remainder of life. Given we know the how is important, not the what (human extinction).

Can you elaborate how Cet'inigra implies/says Oblivion is fallacious? I might have just missed that part. I figured his 'we're all damned' thing was more the concept that damnation is nigh universal, not literally so. Unless I missed something specific in his musing. Though, I share your pain in regards to some of the unclearness of the layout of things.

As for the Judging Eye, I actually missed the part until someone pointed it out, and it seems terribly interesting. I really don't have enough on the concept of the Judging Eye, God of Gods, and how they relate/exist. Though, ever since the Survivor, I've felt like it might relate to the idea of Oblivion.

@profgrape - I'm not sure we should consider the No-God soulless. It required a soul, eh?

[Jorram]

Well, Cet'inigra explicitly says that what the Nonmen believed in was a lie - I took that to reference the idea that they can find Oblivion and hide from damnation. This is why he understood that Nil'giccas and the rest of his people won't really believe, or rather accept such a revelation, because it would render all the strife and hopes in their lives to this point meaningless. One has to see the Inverse Fire to believe.

But then that Erratic's soul did slip the Ciphrang (again, that might be just a lucky circumstance, as has been posited).

With regards to the JE being able to see the No-God - why I think this is hugely important is because to some extent it puts the God of Gods outside the continuum as well (otherwise inability to perceive the NG follows), which lends credence to the Solitary God interpretation. On the other hand, Bakker seems to have said that the Fanim have it totally wrong....

(this feels like we are discussing the nature of quantum mechanics back in the 1920s )

[SmilerLoki]

Well, Cet'inigra explicitly says that what the Nonmen believed in was a lie

We should take that as his educated opinion as opposed to being unequivocally true.

With regards to the JE being able to see the No-God

When Cnaiur is still in possession of his own eyes, he sees the Sarcophagus even while being possessed by Ajokli. He stops seeing it when he sees "with Hell's own eyes".

First:

And in the heart of the Whirlwind he glimpsed rumours of it, the black shining jewel.

Then:

Even as it blinded the wind laid bare, exposing structures, devouring them, displaying the lurid layers beneath. With Hell’s own eyes, Cnaiür urs Skiötha peered up into the void and saw ... nothing.

Now compare it to what Mimara sees before the Whirlwind starts:

And she blinks and she blinks and yet still it hangs there ... scarab shining ...
“What is it?” Anasûrimbor Kellhus says, though he is nowhere to be seen. “What ails thee, Mimara?”
A sarcophagus, iridescent black, hovering where her stepfather stands robed in shining white ...

To me, it all reads not as clear as presented in the opening post.

[Sausuna]

Well, Cet'inigra explicitly says that what the Nonmen believed in was a lie - I took that to reference the idea that they can find Oblivion and hide from damnation. This is why he understood that Nil'giccas and the rest of his people won't really believe, or rather accept such a revelation, because it would render all the strife and hopes in their lives to this point meaningless. One has to see the Inverse Fire to believe.

But then that Erratic's soul did slip the Ciphrang (again, that might be just a lucky circumstance, as has been posited).

With regards to the JE being able to see the No-God - why I think this is hugely important is because to some extent it puts the God of Gods outside the continuum as well (otherwise inability to perceive the NG follows), which lends credence to the Solitary God interpretation. On the other hand, Bakker seems to have said that the Fanim have it totally wrong....

(this feels like we are discussing the nature of quantum mechanics back in the 1920s )

For Cet'inigra, I think it is so much hubris and/or assumption. The fact being that most people seemingly are damned and the paths to Oblivion are what, 'tight as an arrow's notch'. Aurang said something very similar as well in regards to damnation being inevitable. I think either some Non-men had more liberal views on finding Oblivion before (that it wasn't quite so hard) or seeing the Inverse Fire is horrifying enough to convince him it wasn't possible. And there might be yet further aspects to Elision and how finding Oblivion works that is unknown.

As for the Judging Eye, I still have to wonder how it works. The entire scene where The Survivor gets high still seems like it might hold more clues. But I think whatever it is, the God of Gods, Oblivion, whatever, that it certainly differs from the ordinary gods (imo).

[solipsisticurge]

The only people who aren't damned are Mimara and Esme.  Who aside from looking alike, are both former prostitutes.  I'm not too familiar with Mary Magdalene's story.  Was her former occupation significant?

Perhaps I misread or misinterpreted it, but wasn't one warrior of the Ordeal saved toward the end? He died and was carried into the arms of Gilgaol or some such.


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[SmilerLoki]

Perhaps I misread or misinterpreted it, but wasn't one warrior of the Ordeal saved toward the end? He died and was carried into the arms of Gilgaol or some such.

Sorweel is also saved.

And possibly Celmomas, since Gilgaol takes him after giving him the prophecy. Not completely sure about this, though, need to re-read it.

[Sausuna]

Perhaps I misread or misinterpreted it, but wasn't one warrior of the Ordeal saved toward the end? He died and was carried into the arms of Gilgaol or some such.

Sorweel is also saved.

And possibly Celmomas, since Gilgaol takes him after giving him the prophecy. Not completely sure about this, though, need to re-read it.

From what I recall, this was when Akka was seeing Seswatha's vision through Celmomas, so the situation remains in question. And I think he wakes up before he dies as well. But that's the thought he has 'Gilgoal came for him' rather. And sees what he thinks is Gilgoal. Though, with Kellhus in the vision and 'four horns', hard to say.

[SmilerLoki]

From what I recall, this was when Akka was seeing Seswatha's vision through Celmomas, so the situation remains in question. And I think he wakes up before he dies as well. But that's the thought he has 'Gilgoal came for him' rather. And sees what he thinks is Gilgoal. Though, with Kellhus in the vision and 'four horns', hard to say.

Thank you! I remembered it wasn't very clear, not to mention happening in a dream of undetermined credibility.

[MSJ]

Perhaps I misread or misinterpreted it, but wasn't one warrior of the Ordeal saved toward the end? He died and was carried into the arms of Gilgaol or some such.

Yes, your correct. I forget who though. I will try and find the quote.

[SmilerLoki]

Perhaps I misread or misinterpreted it, but wasn't one warrior of the Ordeal saved toward the end? He died and was carried into the arms of Gilgaol or some such.

Yes, your correct. I forget who though. I will try and find the quote.

It's the leader of the guys with two hearts. It happens when Serwa (already burned) saves Esmenet, Mimara, and Akka.

[MSJ]

This was how King Coithus Narnol was maimed and forced to retire back to the Canal, and how Thane Sosering Rauchurl was felled from the heights of Gwergiruh. He was grinning to his compatriots when the missile dropped from the void of his left, piercing his cheek, breaking his teeth, and pitching him headlong into the frenzied threshing below. Death came spiralling down ...
Bore him wondering to the brace of Gilgaöl.

There you go! I remembered this also when reading your post just now.

[Sausuna]

From what I recall, this was when Akka was seeing Seswatha's vision through Celmomas, so the situation remains in question. And I think he wakes up before he dies as well. But that's the thought he has 'Gilgoal came for him' rather. And sees what he thinks is Gilgoal. Though, with Kellhus in the vision and 'four horns', hard to say.

Thank you! I remembered it wasn't very clear, not to mention happening in a dream of undetermined credibility.

I was actually reading it in regards to the Celmoman Prophechy.

Also, it was High Thane Sosering Rauchurl of the Holca who is noted as going to the war god.