My first contention is that Nonmen experienced a rigid-caste system with Quya at the top. Sorcerous ability is in-part hereditary and the Quya are a hereditary caste.
High Ainon serves as a metaphor for the Nonmen Mansions.
So, yeah, a very caste-oriented and status-oriented society, with the men massively outnumbering the women. This gender disparity, and the weird sexual dynamics that resulted from it, would've led to lots of female hypergamy and male homosexuality ("the sodomite kings of Eärwa", as the Tusk calls them).
Outlawing the aporos was a religious edict iirc - its in TTT glossary under chorae or aporos, I think.
That suggests a religious caste that was able to make 'legal' rulings independent of and overiding local kings of mansion.
The Aporos is something I want to flesh out further in future books. The basic idea is this: the Quya first developed the Aporos in the prosecution of their own intercine wars, but it was quickly forbidden. The arrival of the Inchoroi allowed several renegade Quya to pursue their sorcerous interrogations, leading to the production of tens of thousands of Chorae, which were used throughout the Cuno-Inchoroi wars.
Likewise, quyan schools seem to have been independent to some extent from mansions.
I do not think we can say sorcerous ability was a prerequisite of rule, and it was certainly not a requisite for Ishroi.
Sorcerous ability (quya) was hereditary among nonmen, so likely a caste; although not strictly so. As noted, some were seen as both ishroi and quya, also some seem to have been bound to schools and thus quya only (Mitrul etc) whilst others did the bidding of their kings (Mekeritrig) and still others were permitted to rule (NG). So its a debatable point.
Quya (sorcerer-priests) on top, then warrior-nobles, then merchants, then menial workers, and finally slaves on the bottom. Rulers are from the two top castes. Castes are hereditary, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Nonmen selected for sorcerous ability in certain gene pools (much like the Dunyain selected for amoral intelligence in their breeding), so the Quya probably have different genetics from their non-magical cousins.QuoteHigh Ainon serves as a metaphor for the Nonmen Mansions.
Erm, what? Where does it say that?
So, yeah, a very caste-oriented and status-oriented society, with the men massively outnumbering the women. This gender disparity, and the weird sexual dynamics that resulted from it, would've led to lots of female hypergamy and male homosexuality ("the sodomite kings of Eärwa", as the Tusk calls them).
My impression was that the gender disparity was the direct result of the Womb Plague, since all the women died out, and that the sodomy was the outcome of that since, well, you know. Did I miss something?
I don't think Quyan "Schools" existed. From where are you interpreting this?My lead in assumption was that Mihtrul was a quyan 'school' as I thought Mimara's mail was made of nimil. Quite mistaken, it is as hard as nimil.
The Artisan. The Siqu founder of the School of Contrivers, the Mihtrulic
I do not think we can say sorcerous ability was a prerequisite of rule, and it was certainly not a requisite for Ishroi.Well, this is my argument but we'll see how it fleshes out. I'm definitely asserting that at some point in Nonmen history, sorcerous ability became a prerequisite for rule.
Two Ishroi, renowned for their valour–Misariccas and Runidil–and one Quya… ... Cet’ingira.
I don't think Quyan "Schools" existed. From where are you interpreting this?My lead in assumption was that Mihtrul was a quyan 'school' as I thought Mimara's mail was made of nimil. Quite mistaken, it is as hard as nimil.
Otherwise there is only the fact that the practitioners of the aporos were 'seduced' by the Inchies and then created chorae, which made me suspect some 'school' type grouping.
So agree with the fact that School is likely an inappropriate term for whatever system of organisation quya had for learning and practicing magic.
OTOH the siqu helped set up the Schools of the north, so perhaps it is likely that they were patterned after nonmen organisations.Quote from: The False DawnThe Artisan. The Siqu founder of the School of Contrivers, the Mihtrulic
I do not think we can say sorcerous ability was a prerequisite of rule, and it was certainly not a requisite for Ishroi.Well, this is my argument but we'll see how it fleshes out. I'm definitely asserting that at some point in Nonmen history, sorcerous ability became a prerequisite for rule.
As noted, sorcerous ability is hereditary amongst nonmen, but rule does not appear so. There are no nonman princes after all.
TTT glossary describes Ishroi as the name given to the nonmen warrior castes. Note plural.
Quya is the generic name for nonmen magi.
Siqu is the term for nonmen involved in the Tutelage.
Which leaves us with one broad term for some warrior castes that could include quya and/or siqu. :(
Interestingly, there is some discrimination between Ishroi and Quya when RSB wants to make clear that certain individuals are not Quya:Quote from: The False DawnTwo Ishroi, renowned for their valour–Misariccas and Runidil–and one Quya… ... Cet’ingira.
More interesting stuff, Gilcunya is described as the holy tongue of the nonmen quya and is a debased version of Auja-Gilcunni, the base language of Cunuroi - seperate again from Ihrimsu, which the nonmen of Ishterebinth speak.
Culturally, this suggests different languages between mansions.
Can we assume that quya were more generally involved with religious and philosophical matters when they were not also Ishroi?
4 revelations suggests that Ishroi spent most of their time in the field (the curse of Ishroi is to not know that their children are their own).
This would leave little time for religious, administrative and other more productive roles required in a functioning society.
There are more references to Ishroi than Quya in general when we read through the Cuno-Inchoroi wars Neither CC or NJ show any indication of being more than Ishroi. NJ cuts off CC's head in their final encounter, in4Revelations we see CC struck down by a nimil spear. This suggests physical combat rather than sorcerous. So if CC was Quya, then NJ must've held a chorae, in which case NJ could not be Quya. Logically, it appears at least one nonman king was not Quya.
Ciogli breaks Wutteat's neck with his bare hands. Ingalira (Siol Ishroi) strangled Vshikcru (inchie).
NC in 4 revelations is Ishroi but not Quya.
Apologies for the meandering post :p
My impression was that the gender disparity was the direct result of the Womb Plague, since all the women died out, and that the sodomy was the outcome of that since, well, you know. Did I miss something?
That also raises the question that the curse of the Nroni fisherman "to never know if your children are your own" meaning that the Mandate probably use the cants of compulsion to fuck women and then cull the magical kids.
Expanding on my thoughts that the Ishroi caste were like the Spartiate rather than Plato's Republic, here is a wiki reference that neatly covers my reasoning on the 'curse of the Ishro'i. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartiate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartiate)
Given that the nonmen were kind of like the Greek gods in their form and passions, I think we can see why their wives would be inclined to play around behind their backs. We even have the example of Cimoira where a high ranked Ishroi's wife got jiggy with Sirwatta, a human slave.
That same instance mentions the Judges of the Ishroi, which sounds like another sub-category within nonman society.
Also interesting is the effect of hereditary sorcery. [1]Does this mean that Quya were also comprised of females prior to the womb plague? [2]Did this require both parents be Quya? [3]What was the incidence of the Few amongst nonmen? It certainly seems like they were more common than amongst men. Perhaps 1/2000 rather than 1/200,000 (my rough estimation).
Su'juriot possibly adds more fuel to my theory that being Quya is incidental to the qualities required for rule. Why else the special designation as 'Witch-king'. Surely this serves to differentiate him from a standard king. ;)
Sorry, Curethan, I've read that twice now - I can't seem to find where it says anything about they relationships except that because they marry late, birthrates are low (which is sourceless anyhow)?
More interesting stuff, Gilcunya is described as the holy tongue of the nonmen quya and is a debased version of Auja-Gilcunni, the base language of Cunuroi - seperate again from Ihrimsu, which the nonmen of Ishterebinth speak.
Culturally, this suggests different languages between mansions.
“Vulgar languages, especially when native, stand too close to the press of life. Their meanings are too easily warped by our insights and experiences. The sheer other-ness of Gilcûnya serves to insulate the semantics of sorcery from the inconstancies of our lives.and
Bakker, R. Scott (2010-05-06). The Thousandfold Thought (Prince of Nothing) (Kindle Locations 3415-3417). Orbit. Kindle Edition.
Gilcûnya—The tongue of the Nonmen Quya and the Gnostic Schools, thought to be a debased version of Auja-Gilcûnni, the so-called “ground” (or first) tongue of the Cûnuroi.Which may mean that the Quya use Gilcunya to preserve the meaning of their sorcery, just like the Mandate, but doesn't mean much to Nonman society in general because it is a derivative of an already ancient and not commonly used tongue, Auja-Gilcûnni?
Bakker, R. Scott (2010-05-06). The Thousandfold Thought (Prince of Nothing) (Kindle Locations 9844-9845). Orbit. Kindle Edition.
The hood bowed to the tabletop. "I can no longer remember, I have known Ishterebinth, I think ... But it was not called such then."
"Who was your Quya Master? From which Line do you hail?"
Quote from: p216"Who was your Quya Master? From which Line do you hail?"
My bolding, capitalization by the text.
Lack of significant female Ishroi heroes or rulers pre-womb plague suggests generic gender roles I'm afraid, at least in the warrior class. ...I wonder if non-women were baldies too?
There are more references to Ishroi than Quya in general when we read through the Cuno-Inchoroi wars Neither CC or NJ show any indication of being more than Ishroi. NJ cuts off CC's head in their final encounter, in4Revelations we see CC struck down by a nimil spear. This suggests physical combat rather than sorcerous. So if CC was Quya, then NJ must've held a chorae, in which case NJ could not be Quya. Logically, it appears at least one nonman king was not Quya.
I think the Nonmen are the most fascinating part of Earwa, their history should be a major plot point of the TUC.
T don't think their civilization was in decline at the time of the Fall, their were nine high mansions at that time.
Though the high mansion controls the whole territory and gives it name to the kingdom, but there must be smaller mansions throughout the territory like the one in which Moenghus built his abode.
I really hope Bakker does a Silmarillion type series for the Cuno-Inchie wars after the second apoc is completed.
On the Ishroi or Quya point, I think these two classes maybe somewhat interchangeable, with Cleric and Cet' Ingira being both, I think a good bet is that all the royal lines had a mixture of both with the rulers being both.
Sorry for the piecemeal response.T don't think their civilization was in decline at the time of the Fall, their were nine high mansions at that time.
I'll have to find the quote but Bakker's written that Nonman Civilization was declined far past their peak by the time of the Fall.
maybe his sense of his place in time at the moment he was talking to akka was... erratic?
Thoughts?
There's something that still isn't entirely clear to me about Erratics.
Is going "Wayward" something that is inevitable for all Nonmen but just hasn't happened to the "Intact" yet? Or is it something that they are susceptible to as a species but only some fall victim to?
But a question there (man, WLW opened up so many mysteries): Can Cleric's account of Ishterebinth be trusted? He tells Achamian that Ishterebinth has turned to Min-Uroikas. Do we take this literally? Because he says it pretty clearly and suggests that only pride prevented him from doing it too.
maybe his sense of his place in time at the moment he was talking to akka was... erratic?
Thoughts?
We already knew that some number of Nonmen had gone over to the Consult some time ago, but before this line from Cleric, it seemed to me that we had every reason to believe that there was one still-functioning Nonman society that had not turned to the Consult.
So here are some possibilities, it seems to me:
-Ishterebinth has been in some kind of uneasy alliance or truce w/ the Consult...their society persists, but they're not warring to destroy the Ark anymore, and now they're genuinely interested in the possibility of the Aspect-Emperor who has accomplished such amazing things
Aurang's reference to Ishteribinth implies they are heavily compromised, but it doesn't seem like the thing one would say of allies?
Paraphrasing: "there is little that occurs in Ishteribinth that we are not aware of..."
Iirc that is in response to speculation that the dunyain are a product of the non-men.
I always felt that the Mansions were akin to bronze age city states rather than dominions of specific areas like traditional fantasy kingdoms, and that the sparseness of their population was due to their low birthrate and long lifespans.
To my faulty memory, it seems that the Bakker quote Madness might be thinking of actually refers to the Inchies - that they were moribund and had lost proper knowledge of their technology by the time they came to Earwa. I don't recall any reference to where the Cunoroi were on their cultural or racial lifespan before the fall.
So far, the deepest the histories go is to the Fall, which is to say, the arrival of the Inchoroi in the last Age of Nonmen.
To my faulty memory, it seems that the Bakker quote Madness might be thinking of actually refers to the Inchies - that they were moribund and had lost proper knowledge of their technology by the time they came to Earwa. I don't recall any reference to where the Cunoroi were on their cultural or racial lifespan before the fall.I believe this is correct. After all, why would the Inchoroi fall from the sky and crash land if they knew how to properly fly their own ship? Its not like they got to the promised land and decided that they needed to kill 99% of their population as they landed.
But I'm fairly sure about this other one. I will find the right combination of words or strategy (searching obsessively) to prove I'm right or crazy ;).Measure is unceasing.
Aurang's reference to Ishteribinth implies they are heavily compromised, but it doesn't seem like the thing one would say of allies?
Paraphrasing: "there is little that occurs in Ishteribinth that we are not aware of..."
Iirc that is in response to speculation that the dunyain are a product of the non-men.
But I'm fairly sure about this other one. I will find the right combination of words or strategy (searching obsessively) to prove I'm right or crazy ;).Measure is unceasing.
Aurang's reference to Ishteribinth implies they are heavily compromised, but it doesn't seem like the thing one would say of allies?
Paraphrasing: "there is little that occurs in Ishteribinth that we are not aware of..."
Iirc that is in response to speculation that the dunyain are a product of the non-men.
D'oh, can't believe I forgot to include that. I'd agree that it doesn't sound like something you'd say about your allies. Sounds like something you'd say about a place where you have spies or some ability to infiltrate. And this was from the first series. He references Nin-Ciljiras (sp) as if he's now the de-facto ruler of Ishterebinth. So we can assume from that that Cleric is gone by this point.
Kind of funny though...why does the Ordeal think that Nil'giccas is no longer king in Ishterebinth? On their own, I get how men would have no real inkling of who rules in Ishterebinth. But Kellhus almost certainly knows. What motive could he have for maintaining the idea that Nil'giccas is still king there? Anyone pondered that?
- Where is it mentioned that the anyone of the Ordeal believes Nil'giccas isn't king? Serwa mentions Nil'giccas as King, Kellhus clearly perpetuates the lie with Nin'sariccas (probably because not revealing what you know for no good reason is great strategy), Proyas reflects on having sent thousands of ships towards Ishterebinth to treat with Nil'giccas... As far as whatever it is commonly disseminated among humans about the Nonmen, if they know anything, it seems that they know Nil'giccas is King.
And it's not just that Kellhus could be going along w/ the Emissary's lies because it's more than that as you pointed out...several characters seems to believe that they are privy to the knowledge of who rules in Ishterebinth, but they are deceived. Why the deception?
Haha, yeah, I meant why does Kellhus allow the whole Ordeal to believe that the Nonman King is Nil'giccas when Kellhus clearly must know that Cleric is long gone and has been for some time. That's what I was trying to get at.
And it's not just that Kellhus could be going along w/ the Emissary's lies because it's more than that as you pointed out...several characters seems to believe that they are privy to the knowledge of who rules in Ishterebinth, but they are deceived. Why the deception?
The big question here - that we dont have the answer to, but Kellhus certainly has - is WHY Ishterebinth has joined the Consult.
The big question here - that we dont have the answer to, but Kellhus certainly has - is WHY Ishterebinth has joined the Consult.I like this whole post. Unfortunately I agree with pretty much all of it so I don't have much else to say.
I believe Kellhus has calculated that this reason is a very good one, from the Nonman perspective, and he won't be able to win them over.
So Kellhus will, somewhat surprisingly, massacre the shit out of the Quya with Chorae-tipped arrows at a convenient time, possibly on arrival, and then incinerate/dice all the non-sorcerous ones.
This theory is supported by Moe indicating to Sorweel that Team Niom will die quite soon.
We are heavily conditioned by Tolkien here, and automatically believe that elves (and thereby elf-analogues) will do the right thing in the end, and that they are somehow inherently "good", while Bakker repeatedly tells us through Akka and Serwa how different they are from us.
I like this whole post. Unfortunately I agree with pretty much all of it so I don't have much else to say.Thanks. I'm of course not 100% convinced this is how things will turn out, but I consider this is a very probable, though tragic and depressing, outcome.
As I said, the "why", the reason Ishterebinth has turned, will be key.
If they have wholesale joined the Consult, in my mind, and Nil'giccas left because of their decision, then it is because someone has told them the "truth" of the Inverse Fire.
On another note, I hope Scott provides an explanation for why Ishoriöl changed name to Ishterebinth. Dunno why I'm so curious about that one, but this question keeps bothering me for some reason.
Yes. If the Consult managed to convince them that Nil'G lied, for example by letting them send an Intact Ishterebinthian over to take a look at the IF for himself, that would do the trick.As I said, the "why", the reason Ishterebinth has turned, will be key.
No thoughts on this then, Borque:If they have wholesale joined the Consult, in my mind, and Nil'giccas left because of their decision, then it is because someone has told them the "truth" of the Inverse Fire.I think that is the only reason the Intact would turn and the only reason other than greater trauma that the Erratics would turn.
I think it had changed names before Cil-Aujas fell. If the PoN Timeline wikia page at http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline is correct (can't check the TTT appendix myself atm) it changed names even before Mog-Pharau was summoned (see entry for year 2132).On another note, I hope Scott provides an explanation for why Ishoriöl changed name to Ishterebinth. Dunno why I'm so curious about that one, but this question keeps bothering me for some reason.
Probably when Ishoriol became the Last of the Mansions after the Apocalypse and the loss of Cil-Aujus. Then "Exalted Hall" becomes "Exalted Stronghold?"
Yes. If the Consult managed to convince them that Nil'G lied, for example by letting them send an Intact Ishterebinthian over to take a look at the IF for himself, that would do the trick.
...
ETA: On the other hand, if the reason is something weaker than this, then Kellhus might be able to persuade them to actually join the Ordeal for real. Like, for example, Aurax promising not to send oceans of Sranc into Injor-Niyas in exchange for them not being an annoyance.
Btw, I think Nil'giccas having lied about the IF is what Gin'Yursis refers to in Cil-Aujas, when he says "They betrayed... You betrayed...".
I think it had changed names before Cil-Aujas fell. If the PoN Timeline wikia page at http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline is correct (can't check the TTT appendix myself atm) it changed names even before Mog-Pharau was summoned (see entry for year 2132).
All this speculation about quyan bloodlines has got me thinking--were the first pupils in the tutelage half-nonmen sons? The mafia/family analogy extended into human lines?
@ Madness - would be strange if the Consult added the bit about Nonmen being false and it's true. :)
It still bugs me that the Nonmen banned the Aporos--the mansions could use chorae against each other just as well as school vs school. That the prohibition was 'religious' doesn't seem to matter much to the practicality of chorae, UNLESS they mean 'religious' like they think using chorae will upset gods that will wreak general, random havoc on Earwe.
I had never thought about all of that stuff together about Gin-yursis--amazing. This guy needs to be in the story MORE. Prominent role in Book 1 of the First Apocalypse?
About that witch-king--don't suppose that term means 'magic female ruler'? What about Nonman witches? Need an Atrocity Tale about that.
All this speculation about quyan bloodlines has got me thinking--were the first pupils in the tutelage half-nonmen sons? The mafia/family analogy extended into human lines?
QuoteAll this speculation about quyan bloodlines has got me thinking--were the first pupils in the tutelage half-nonmen sons? The mafia/family analogy extended into human lines?
I find this less than likely.
I think Bakker did that to just move another battline between Consult vs Foes to be inside of the mansion. The scenes wouldn't be as cool unless there was indication that the Ordeal Sorweel and co left was also fighting inside the last mansion.
I know this is a stupid question and apologies if it has been answered before, but could someone explain the difference between Ishroi and Quya? My understanding is that Ishroi are non-sorcerous Nonmen warriors and Quya are the sorcerers, is that it?
"He paused, beld his lantern before a string of naked figures raising spears against a lion, then realized athat another frieze had been carved behind tis first. Peering through miniature limbs, he saw deeper, more licentious representations, depicting all manner of poses and penetrations." P315 TTT US paperback
"the walls were chiselled large as life but contioned telling the same twofold tale of martial exploit and priapic excess" p 315
"As elsewhere in the mansion, every surface had been rendered with heroic carvings across more pornographic reliefs, though on a far greater scale" p 322
"[the statues around the pool] They squatted in a broad semi-circle facing the pool, their expressions lurid in the orange light." p 323
It has been bothering me why Wutteat would say "CUNNING ISHROI" instead of recognizing him as a Quya.
It would seem to stand that Wutteat and Nil'giccas have fought each other (or know of each other well enough) several times in the past, and using Ishroi as his title over Quya is a little odd to me.
Any thoughts? Or, am I reading too far into that?
When Kellhus is wandering through the Kyudean mansion, a lot of these things pop upI believe Akka says in the Judging Eye that the Nonmen didn't start making friezes like that until after the Cuno-Inchoroi wars. The artistic excess of both their subject matter and the complexity of such art is likely an expression of a people desperate both to remember and to find absolutely anything to occupy their time but the knowledge of their race's now pointless and doomed existence.Quote"He paused, beld his lantern before a string of naked figures raising spears against a lion, then realized athat another frieze had been carved behind tis first. Peering through miniature limbs, he saw deeper, more licentious representations, depicting all manner of poses and penetrations." P315 TTT US paperback
"the walls were chiselled large as life but contioned telling the same twofold tale of martial exploit and priapic excess" p 315
"As elsewhere in the mansion, every surface had been rendered with heroic carvings across more pornographic reliefs, though on a far greater scale" p 322
"[the statues around the pool] They squatted in a broad semi-circle facing the pool, their expressions lurid in the orange light." p 323
All this seems to suggest that the nonmen possessed an inchoroi-level sex drive before the Cuno-Inchoroi wars. Perhaps the two races are even related in the distant past? That Moenghus waits for Kellhus in such a place would confirm Kellhus' interpretation of his father, that he would eventually become aware of his sins.
He says cunning ishroi.
Though in ALL CAPS of course.
I look forward to what TUC explains in the sense of the Nonman self, which is clearly different from what man experiences.They don't?
They don't distinguish between touching themselves and touching others.
Their art depicts a flow or summation of behaviors - they are never tricked into thinking their present self is the self.Is this radically different experience of reality due to them being (most likely) an entirely different species from Homo sapiens, or is it due to the slow derangement that accumulates as a result of their inability to cope with the sheer volume of their own memories? I find it hard to believe most Nonmen could function if their perspectives are anything approaching as erratic as the one in the first Atrocity Tale. But then he was an Erratic. And yet in a way that kind of art seems to represent a tendency not to see things in discrete events separated in time, which is certainly how that particular Cunuroi perceived the world.
These are radically different perspectives, and it makes their thinking genuinely alien to our own.
They don't?No, can't find it since it's the one I don't have digitally, but in WLW, Cleric asks Mimara something like "Is it true that man experiences touching themselves and the touch of another differently?" Whether or not that's the exact wording, the implication was very much from a 'different species' perspective, rather than 'Erratic vs. non-Erratic'.
Their art depicts a flow or summation of behaviors - they are never tricked into thinking their present self is the self.
These are radically different perspectives, and it makes their thinking genuinely alien to our own.
Is this radically different experience of reality due to them being (most likely) an entirely different species from Homo sapiens, or is it due to the slow derangement that accumulates as a result of their inability to cope with the sheer volume of their own memories? I find it hard to believe most Nonmen could function if their perspectives are anything approaching as erratic as the one in the first Atrocity Tale. But then he was an Erratic. And yet in a way that kind of art seems to represent a tendency not to see things in discrete events separated in time, which is certainly how that particular Cunuroi perceived the world.In this universe (that is, from Bakker's view), the 'self', and what it means to be a 'self', takes on a strong significance, so I think there's a deliberate creation in the Nonman self - and I think the ultimate crux of the Nonman self is that they don't view themselves as an instant, as a purely present existence. They recognize, perhaps only briefly, that what comes before and after is still integral to what defines their selves, and from there it might easily flow into a lack of distinction between other selves.
And clearly their perceptions are different in some ways...they can't see paintings, evidently, so they have to do friezes and statues.
I just think their alzheimer's like symptoms are going to make judging what is native to their species and what is pathology difficult, if they end up being present in all Nonmen to one degree or another.
And I wonder what it implies of the Quya is Nonman thinking is inherently so alien to Homo sapiens? Is there really all that much overlap between the Quya and the Gnosis? The Nonman mind may be able to make logical leaps in their sorceries that a human would be unable to, and vice versa.
But yeah, if we get characters at Ishterebinth hopefully some of these questions are at least partially answered.
No, can't find it since it's the one I don't have digitally, but in WLW, Cleric asks Mimara something like "Is it true that man experiences touching themselves and the touch of another differently?" Whether or not that's the exact wording, the implication was very much from a 'different species' perspective, rather than 'Erratic vs. non-Erratic'.Ahhh, I didn't remember or understand what you meant. That is interesting. I wonder what that implies from an evolutionary standpoint?
In this universe (that is, from Bakker's view), the 'self', and what it means to be a 'self', takes on a strong significance, so I think there's a deliberate creation in the Nonman self - and I think the ultimate crux of the Nonman self is that they don't view themselves as an instant, as a purely present existence. They recognize, perhaps only briefly, that what comes before and after is still integral to what defines their selves, and from there it might easily flow into a lack of distinction between other selves.So you're implying that Nonmen may experience a far greater degree of empathy than Homo sapiens, at least for each other (human and nonman body language and facial expressions vary significantly from each other which would be a barrier to inter-species empathy)? Hmmm.
Maybe Bakker read up on mirror (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron)neurons and integrated those into the Nonman mind.
Also, I believe Madness said that we will explore a great deal of Nonman culture and mindsets when the story reaches Ishterebinth.
"Is it true," he inexplicably asks, "that being touched by another and touching oneself are quite distinct sensations for Men?"
[some internal monologue from Mimara]
"I think I once knew this," he finally says.
I don't just have my mind in the gutter when I assume he's speaking about masturbation vs. sex, do I? I mean it's not just me, that's what he's talking about?
I don't just have my mind in the gutter when I assume he's speaking about masturbation vs. sex, do I? I mean it's not just me, that's what he's talking about?
I don't just have my mind in the gutter when I assume he's speaking about masturbation vs. sex, do I? I mean it's not just me, that's what he's talking about?I think that is the obvious conclusion. What other applications might that have? Imagine pain, rather than pleasure. How could you fight a war, or kill other Nonmen, if being hurt/stabbed/killed by another felt the same as though you did it to yourself? I have no idea...
But what if you had that backwards? That is, it's not that stabbing someone else is like stabbing yourself, but that stabbing yourself is like stabbing another?
I honestly don't see how that would make much of a difference. Either way, inflicting pain on yourself is not something that is easy to do for most people.
What would make it impossible for them to see paintings? Can they read writing, then? I can't think of any reason why anything with sight wouldn't be able to "see" paintings.As far as I remember, percieving a flat illusion of a volume is a trainable skill, it's not inherent even to the people. Where most of current human population get this through early childhood (along with zero language, walking and other base stuff for a tiny drunk adult), there were tribes of primitive people found only in 20th century who lived with a very scarce material culture. That certain circumstance prevent them from both creating such illusions and training in recognising them. It seems a window of opportunity here is quite wide, because even adults developed that skill with a help of a pictures brought with explorers.
What would make it impossible for them to see paintings? Can they read writing, then? I can't think of any reason why anything with sight wouldn't be able to "see" paintings.As far as I remember, percieving a flat illusion of a volume is a trainable skill, it's not inherent even to the people. Where most of current human population get this through early childhood (along with zero language, walking and other base stuff for a tiny drunk adult), there were tribes of primitive people found only in 20th century who lived with a very scarce material culture. That certain circumstance prevent them from both creating such illusions and training in recognising them. It seems a window of opportunity here is quite wide, because even adults developed that skill with a help of a pictures brought with explorers.
And we know cunuroi & halaroi have some deep diffirence in perception. Like, cunuroi look exact the same to halaroi, but manage to differentiate between themselves with no problem. I hope that wasn't a "all europeans look the same to asian et vice versa"-joke thrown in by Bakker. Though it would make a damn good dark humour in context of nonmen memory difficulties.
There was this anecdote about one of film versions of "Madame Butterfly" - that when it was shown in Japan, at one point viewers suddenly started laughing, which was suprising, as the film is rather said. As it turns out, the role of the protagonists' son was played by two Japanese children. Which to white audiences looked exactly the same, but not to the Japanese.
It kinda makes sense that to most people, Nonmen would look pretty similar, particularly with the lack of hair.Actually I've supposed their lack of hair, perfect skin, awesome build and lifespan to be byproducts of grafting made by Ihcnoroi. Like, they are all the same perfect Nonman now, all have the most powerful combination of genes possible for their specie, so there literally is no more place for diversity in their personal biology.
I could be totally wrong but I think the stonehags hunted other scalpoi to steal the scalps that they had already collected
to make them more like Tolkien's elves... and now I can't help but compare dunyain & mangaecca with numenorians.
Do we know anything about the evolution of the Nonmen?
The Dunyain's Principle of Before and After is used by Kellhus to see through the veneer of human modernity, into the roots of their emotion and expression, into the bestial past of human behavior. But we never really see Nonmen subjected to the same intensity of scrutiny {i.e., Kellhus peering through the Nonmen and into a potentially bestial precursor species they may have evolved from}.I think this has purposefully hidden from us. Too many answers, I think, if a dunyain such as Kellhus looked into the faces/souls of Nonmen and told us what he say. The idea of the Darkness that Comes Before affecting all things is very central, and the nonman preceded the men of Eanna more completely than anything else.
Did Men and Nonmen share a common ancestor, with Nonmen representing the absolute peak of artificial selection and genetic refinement? Or are Nonmen artificially designed in someway? Or are their superficial similarities to Men largely incidental somehow?Not sure I understand where these questions are coming from. How would you answer these?
Also, does anybody have any theories about the inhabitants of the other planets throughout the Universe that were visited by the Inchoroi? Were Men and Nonmen a common occurrence throughout the stars at some point in time preceding the events of TSA? Or is it more likely that Earwa is their actual home?I prefer my aliens to be alien. I'd be extremely surprised if the humaniod form was dominant on other planets, in the Earwaverse or IRL.
The Nonmen seem to have always had an affectation for Oblivion... does this mean that they had some presentiment that they were always Damned? Even before their war with the Inchoroi / Nasamorgas and condemnation by the Eannean Men? Due to their treatment of the Emwama, or something even more fundamental than that?"Seem to". I think this notion comes from the fact that our view of Nonmen comes from the men who came in after they where already defeated. I think the young nonmen of eons past worshiped Gods i a manner similar to men.
Do the Nonmen see in color, similar to Humans? Or is their vision largely muted, or entirely monochrome? {I don't think the books ever stated this specifically, but I kind of get that impression from them}.Its mentioned in the books that Nonmen cannot see paintings, which is why they only do carvings. Take from that what you will.
Kellhus, observing the Nonmen ruins in Kyudea, notes that their obsession with the living form points to their terror. What is this terror? Existential terror at the state of being alive, of being encased in mortal, breathing flesh? Terror of the possibility or certainty of damnation?I'd have to look up this part and read it again to answer this. Or you could provide a quote and/or reference so I can be as lazy as possible ;)
Also: Kellhus says the Kyudean Nonman Ruins remind him of Ishual's Thousand Thousand Halls... I wonder if this is again just coincidence or if the Dunyain have some connection with the Nonmen in founding the basic tenets of their philosophy before dredging the Thousand Thousand Halls {do we know if the Dunyain built them, or if they were present in Ishual before their arrival?}.Seems too coincidental to me. I think there is a connection.
Ishroi Warriors, Quya Mages, Judges of the Ishroi, Nonmen Kings and Queens, I am wondering why they settled into a hierarchical monarchy-type structure. Were there ever any Democratic mansions? Or are their forms of government largely uniform across the Mansions {it seems this way, they all seem very homogeneous} and somehow hardwired into their neurology?I get the monarachy-type feeling as well, but I don't think there is actual reference to it. Only ever heard of Nonmen Kings, not Presidents, though this could just be that the men of Earwa, or the nonmen themselves, lack the words/translation to describe a democratic society.
'Pologies for the lengthy post, Nonmen are incredibly interesting to me and I would love to see Bakker do a Silmarillion-type novel {after completion of TSA's trilogy of trilogies} recounting the origins of the Nonmen and the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars in more detail.No apologies necessary. More is always better :)
I think this has purposefully hidden from us. Too many answers, I think, if a dunyain such as Kellhus looked into the faces/souls of Nonmen and told us what he say. The idea of the Darkness that Comes Before affecting all things is very central, and the nonman preceded the men of Eanna more completely than anything else.
Not sure I understand where these questions are coming from. How would you answer these?The questions, they come from the darkness... :D
I'd say it wouldn't be too terribly unlikely that two unrelated species evolved similarly. Fish and dolphins, for example. Personally, I hope there is some kind of not too distant link between them (go back far enough and everything has a common ancestor. I'd prefer a somewhat more recent ancestor )
I prefer my aliens to be alien. I'd be extremely surprised if the humaniod form was dominant on other planets, in the Earwaverse or IRL.The Humanoid form appears to have cropped up at least twice in two separate examples on Earwa, Men and Nonmen...
"Seem to". I think this notion comes from the fact that our view of Nonmen comes from the men who came in after they where already defeated. I think the young nonmen of eons past worshiped Gods i a manner similar to men.Good point.
Its mentioned in the books that Nonmen cannot see paintings, which is why they only do carvings. Take from that what you will.I feel like their colors are largely muted or near-grayscale, with perhaps some exceptions with bronze or copper {the Copper Tree of Siol, etc.}. Color has significant implications for language and communication though, at least for Men. So for Nonmen their muted world's characteristics would have to be read in entirely alien ways.... i.e.. a mineral would not reveal itself to be copper or bronze just by noting its color, they would have to deduce its mineral properties in some other fashion.
I'd have to look up this part and read it again to answer this. Or you could provide a quote and/or reference so I can be as lazy as possible ;)
Upraised palms braced his every step. Blank eyes studied his every angle. The Nonmen who had authored this place possessed more than a fascination with the living form; it had been their obsession. Everywhere, they had cut their image into the dead stone about them, transforming the suffocating weights that hemmed them in into extensions of themselves. And Kellhus realized: the mansion itself had been their devotional work--their Temple. Unlike Men, these Nonmen had not rationed their worship. They did not distinguish between prayer and speech, idol and statue ...Bakker's emphasis in italics, mine in bold.
Which spoke to their terror.
{TTT, p. 316-317, RSB}
In short: Nonmen and Nonmen Society must be derived from something that Came Before, due to the Causality Principle. If not, this has wide reaching implications for the Causality Principle and Earwa as a whole. Although it seems that the Nonmen are as oblivious to their ultimate origin as humans are to theirs.Completely agree. The lost history of Nonmen spans far more years than all the recorded history of Men. Their darkness is far deeper. Nonmen may not have appeared as children to the Dunyain, had the remained sane.
The Humanoid form appears to have cropped up at least twice in two separate examples on Earwa, Men and Nonmen...The difference though, is that both evolved on Earwa, which has supplied all its species with a very similar set of evolutionary pressures. I would just be terribly surprised if those pressures were so similar on an entirely different solar system to create the humanoid form. Also, consider in the case of Earwa, it has only occured twice, while there are far more numerous kinds of bugs, birds, and fish
A few questions about Nonmen {initially posed at westeros.org but received few contemplations in return}...
QuoteA few questions about Nonmen {initially posed at westeros.org but received few contemplations in return}...
Yep, you’re a lot more likely to get accused of being a Bakker alt than any real discussion over there. Which is what happened. Not that what I said is any more useful. :P
In short: Nonmen and Nonmen Society must be derived from something that Came Before, due to the Causality Principle. If not, this has wide reaching implications for the Causality Principle and Earwa as a whole. Although it seems that the Nonmen are as oblivious to their ultimate origin as humans are to theirs.
Personally, I hope there is some kind of not too distant link between them (go back far enough and everything has a common ancestor. I'd prefer a somewhat more recent ancestor )
I feel like their colors are largely muted or near-grayscale, with perhaps some exceptions with bronze or copper {the Copper Tree of Siol, etc.}. Color has significant implications for language and communication though, at least for Men. So for Nonmen their muted world's characteristics would have to be read in entirely alien ways....
“Their civilisation is millions of years old. Once, the Engineers expressed themselves as humans do - taking pleasure in music, colours and story - but they’re able to see in more dimensions than we do. Their art and ornament exist on planes imperceptible to human senses. Their constructions look dark and grim to us; but the Engineers’ eyes see far more than our own. The individual Engineers live for a hundred thousand years. Aeons ago, their race abandoned sex and gender, reproducing by more abstract methods. In recent millennia they have ceased to reproduce altogether.”
~ Jon Spaihts, “Alien Master Narrative”, script notes.
The Nonmen do not sequester religion / worship into a certain societal niche, all of their activities are religious / worshipful in nature. They are obsessed with the living form, beyond mere fascination, and this indicates their terror.... But terror of what? Terror of being flesh and blood? Or terror of the living form's connection with the Outside, and the potential of Damnation?
i wonder if there are genre limitations for combining evolution and high fantasy? i don't remember ever reading fantasy that included evolution except for something by Pratchett. does fantasy and epic/high fantasy in particular mandate a non-evolutionary origin in order to resonate with the readership?
i wonder if there are genre limitations for combining evolution and high fantasy? i don't remember ever reading fantasy that included evolution except for something by Pratchett. does fantasy and epic/high fantasy in particular mandate a non-evolutionary origin in order to resonate with the readership?
Evolution falls into a similar category as gene-manipulation, and as such is a subject that is more akin to sci-fi. I'm not sure authors feel like one belongs in the other? But, imo, its a thin line anyway.
i can't think of evolution happening in a fantasy story, and i don't think it would work for me. i would prefer Genesis or a big ole' unexplained black hole of knowledge where evolution could have occured but there are no authoritative texts about itGenesis isn't an "unexplained black hole of knowledge".
i guess i prefer a Genesis account because it would mean that inside the world, everything has it's place, because everything is ultimately anchored to a meaningful beginning (maybe not 'meaningful' in a nice way).But this is one of the questions being posed by The Second-Apocalypse Saga, isn't it?
in an evolutionary setting, the ultimate origin of everything hinges on coincidences.Not really. Evolution does not concern itself with the Ultimate Origin of Existence.
we get bipedals on earth, maybe tripedals on some other planet.Yes but there would be geographical reasons for the development of bipedals, tripedals, and quadripedals. Variables and factors that generate organisms that precede and encompass their existence. And each of these creatures on each of these planets would literally have been evolving for millennia to fill their "place" in an optimal way.
i think good fiction works because the author creates a story that is unlike the random reality we live in. that is, even the random things that happen in the story still mean something towards the final trajectory of the characters and stuff. idk wut
Absolutely agree. The idea that there is some kind of objective meaning to the Earwaverse, and where it came from if there is (from what darkness...), is central to the entire series.Quotei guess i prefer a Genesis account because it would mean that inside the world, everything has it's place, because everything is ultimately anchored to a meaningful beginning (maybe not 'meaningful' in a nice way).But this is one of the questions being posed by The Second-Apocalypse Saga, isn't it?
Whether or not anything is inherently "meaningful" or if "meaning" is ultimately just an heuristic utilized by a series of phenomena which could ultimately be material and without "meaning" in the traditional sense?
Assuming that the reality we live in is "random" is a large assumption based on no evidence whatsoever.If you're looking to debate scientific semantics, check out the Science subforums, theres a lot of good stuff there (and potentially a few other persons who might engage you there). Though, it might be good form to cite some evidence yourself if you're calling out someone else for not doing so ;).
eventually resulting in a stable sub-population of people that only bred with each other and began receiving selection pressure for traits that allowed them to more effectively exploit other humans (keen senses, nocturnal lifestyle for nightly slave raids, great strength)There is one disturbing thing about natural cause of cunuroi & halaroi difference. A cunuroi lifespan, which was around 400 years. Even if this is a legacy of a common ancestor, either men or nonmen changed in too damn multiplicative manner, something is not quite right there.
There is one disturbing thing about natural cause of cunuroi & halaroi difference. A cunuroi lifespan, which was around 400 years. Even if this is a legacy of a common ancestor, either men or nonmen changed in too damn multiplicative manner, something is not quite right there.
King Sin’niroiha. I believe that's who your talking about, just looked it up.Bingo!
On the PON wikia, it states that Nin'Ciljiras is the same person as Nil'giccas. Can someone cite where we get this information? From Nin'sariccas in WLW, I was under the impression that the line of Nin has been in control of Ishterebinth for some time now and that Nil'giccas had been exiled loooong before the events of PON(With Nin'Ciljiras being a kind of usurper figure).
Also want to learn more about Nin'hirarjal(sp?). He is the author of one of the epigraphs for Four Revelations. The line of traitors is everywhere!!
This also makes the case that virtually every other "ensouled" being in the Bakkerverse (which the Inchoroi prove can exist without originating from Earwa) is likely damned. So basically an inconceivable amount of souls in that universe are going to Hell for the simple fact that they did not evolve on Earwa, and thus have no way of even beginning to understand which acts are sins and which are not.
This also makes the case that virtually every other "ensouled" being in the Bakkerverse (which the Inchoroi prove can exist without originating from Earwa) is likely damned. So basically an inconceivable amount of souls in that universe are going to Hell for the simple fact that they did not evolve on Earwa, and thus have no way of even beginning to understand which acts are sins and which are not.
Why would this be the case? The examples of real sin we have from the text (rape, murder and theft, prostitution) are pretty easily known to be sins by humans; what would prevent similar congruities arising on other worlds?
This also makes the case that virtually every other "ensouled" being in the Bakkerverse (which the Inchoroi prove can exist without originating from Earwa) is likely damned. So basically an inconceivable amount of souls in that universe are going to Hell for the simple fact that they did not evolve on Earwa, and thus have no way of even beginning to understand which acts are sins and which are not.
Why would this be the case? The examples of real sin we have from the text (rape, murder and theft, prostitution) are pretty easily known to be sins by humans; what would prevent similar congruities arising on other worlds?
Different evolution, different physiognomies and genetic systems, might produce different moralities or civilizations. There's no reason to assume that a species entirely alien to our own (or Earwa's own) biosphere would inherit our sense of morality. Rape, murder, and theft, as humans might experience it, could be notions entirely alien to a species with different interpretation of sexuality and possession... Which is something that the Inchoroi seem to be...
Personally, I think it's just associations with the gods/metaphysics that make certain animals "holy".
In the case of the storks, it's their association with birth and, thus, Yatwer.
As for snakes, I think it's because of the "Uroboros" motif, which seems to be an underlying trait of the universe (the circuit of watcher and watched, etc.). I think there's a very specific reason snakes are used by the Cishaurim, beyond simple convenience.
Friezes panelled the walls—were-animals with multiple heads and limbs—but not to the convoluted depths found elsewhere. The scalpers, Achamian could tell, thought them representations of devils: More than a few whispered homespun charms. But he knew better, recognizing in the figures a sensibility kindred to that of the Wolf Gate. It wasn't monsters that glared from the walls, he knew, but rather the many poses of natural beasts compressed into one image. Before they began forgetting, the Nonmen had been obsessed with the mysteries of time, particularly with the way the present seemed to bear the past and the future within it.
Long-lived, they had worshipped Becoming... the bane of Men.
"We are Many!" the Erratic roared. "We are legion! What you call your soul is nothing but a confusion, an inability! A plurality that cannot count the moments that divide it and so calls itself One."
His eyes flared white. Words boomed out, words that made a crimson globe of his head and face. The sound of vacant space ripping, a growl in the deepest pocket of the ear. Abstractions lashed the open air between them, wracked Achamian's Wards. The old Wizard raised arms against the glittering violence.
"Only when memory is stripped away!" Cleric cried out, the glow fading from his eyes. "Only then is Being revealed as pure Becoming! Only when the past dies can we shrug aside the burden that is our Soul!"
Fractal lights tangled the figure's outstretched arms. More arcane words, reverberating across ethereal surfaces. More flashing Abstractions, cracking and hissing across the glowing shells that shielded the Wizard. Fire consumed the thronging scrub and trees. Fire garnished the truncated walls. About them, the famed courtyards of the Holy Library had become burning pits.
"Only then does the Darkness sing untrammelled!" Cleric cried. "Only then!"
"And yet you seek memories!" the Wizard cried, at last delivered to tears.
"To be! Being is not a choice!"
"But you claim Being is deception!"
"Yes!"
"But that is nonsense! Madness!"
Again the Nonman King laughed.
"That is Becoming."
"We Nonmen..." he continued telling his hands, "we think the dark holy, or at least we did before time and treachery leached all the ancient concerns from our souls..."
"The dark?" Galian said, and his voice warm and human—and as such, so very frail. "Holy?"
The Nonman lifted his flawless white face to the light, smiled at the Nansur scalper's questioning gaze.
"Of course... Think on it, my mortal friend. The dark is oblivion made manifest. And oblivion encircles us always. It is the ocean, and we are naught but silvery bubbles. It leans all about us. You see it every time you glimpse the horizon—though you know it not. In the light, our eyes are what blinds us. But in the dark—in the dark!—the line of the horizon opens... opens like a mouth... and oblivion gapes."
Though the Nonman's expression seemed bemused and ironic, Achamian, with his second, more ancient soul, recognized it as distinctively Cûnuroi—what they called noi'ra, bliss in pain.
"You must understand," Cleric said. "For my kind, holiness begins where comprehension ends. Ignorance stakes us out, marks our limits, draws the line between us and what transcends. For us, the true God is the unknown God, the God that outruns our febrile words, our flattering thoughts..."
Not so much a temple as a large hadron collidor with the purpose of connecting heaven and hell, a structure like a sketch of a black hole, cleric even describes an event horizon in the above quoted. And perhaps the LHC esque structures like the vitiric well or great medial screw were meant to study heaven and hell or were meant to create singularities perhaps in the form of chorae.
Not so much a temple as a large hadron collidor with the purpose of connecting heaven and hell, a structure like a sketch of a black hole, cleric even describes an event horizon in the above quoted. And perhaps the LHC esque structures like the vitiric well or great medial screw were meant to study heaven and hell or were meant to create singularities perhaps in the form of chorae.
"What did you find?"
"God... broken into a million warring splinters."
A grim nod. "We worship the spaces between the Gods."
"Which is why you are damned."
Another nod, this one strangely brittle. "As False Men."
The Aspect-Emperor nodded in stoic regret. "As False Men."
“The Nonmen…” he said evenly. “They have taught us how to hide our Voices. How to bypass the Outside, find Oblivion.”
Eyes like bladders of ink, each reflecting the tripods across their shining curve. The fluting of gill-tissues along the neck. “You worship the spaces between the Gods…”
“Yes.”
A rasp like the screams of faraway children tangled in the wind. Inchoroi laughter. “You are already damned. All of you are already damned.”
“So say you.”
A deep chested rumble. Popping mucous. “So says the Inverse Fire.”
Also, this could be further part of the Inchoroi plan for the Womb-Plague. It was always a constant question of, why a Womb-Plague? If they wanted them gone, why not kill them all? But the truth is the Inchoroi didn't want them dead, they wanted them despondent, with no hope for the future (no women, no redemption, only damnation), but very much alive. Why?
Because they wanted sorcery and they knew that the Inverse Fire could help them ply it from the Nonmen. They probably learned this from seducing the Aporos sorcerers. The whole plan of enlistment is actually kind of brilliant in it's twisted way, so much easier than total eradication. In fact, in the Flase Sun, we still see Aurang at it, even trying to lure Titirga, even with possession of Shaeönanra.
I like this H. Makes a lot of sense in regards to the womb-plague and why the Inchoiri wouldn't just devise a way to eradicate them all, which they could've. No, the needed the Nonman for sorcery. Well thought out.