[Madness]

But I'm fairly sure about this other one. I will find the right combination of words or strategy (searching obsessively) to prove I'm right or crazy .

Measure is unceasing.

+1.

Aurang's reference to Ishteribinth implies they are heavily compromised, but it doesn't seem like the thing one would say of allies?
Paraphrasing: "there is little that occurs in Ishteribinth that we are not aware of..."
Iirc that is in response to speculation that the dunyain are a product of the non-men.

D'oh, can't believe I forgot to include that.  I'd agree that it doesn't sound like something you'd say about your allies.  Sounds like something you'd say about a place where you have spies or some ability to infiltrate.  And this was from the first series.  He references Nin-Ciljiras (sp) as if he's now the de-facto ruler of Ishterebinth.  So we can assume from that that Cleric is gone by this point.

Again, it seems to me a Wormtongue scenario - the ruling class of Ishterebinth is compromised by the Consult - but not all Nonmen have individually considered joining the Consult. I'm of the definitive assumption that there is a rift in Ishterebinth and any one of Serwa's Womb (Anasurimbor - Nonmen/Esmenet - whatever the fuck is up with her bloodline), Sorweel's Mask (Yatwer), Mimara (The Judging Eye), or Achamian (Nil'giccas' nimil armour) will trigger the civil unrest [in favor of Kellhus' plans].

Kind of funny though...why does the Ordeal think that Nil'giccas is no longer king in Ishterebinth?  On their own, I get how men would have no real inkling of who rules in Ishterebinth.  But Kellhus almost certainly knows.  What motive could he have for maintaining the idea that Nil'giccas is still king there?  Anyone pondered that?

- Where is it mentioned that the anyone of the Ordeal believes Nil'giccas isn't king? Serwa mentions Nil'giccas as King, Kellhus clearly perpetuates the lie with Nin'sariccas (probably because not revealing what you know for no good reason is great strategy), Proyas reflects on having sent thousands of ships towards Ishterebinth to treat with Nil'giccas... As far as whatever it is commonly disseminated among humans about the Nonmen, if they know anything, it seems that they know Nil'giccas is King.

- Because Kellhus has already decided how the Nonmen are going to react, they're already a variable considered and accounted for (whether by the Niom, by Achamian and Mimara, by any of his pre-determined pieces). He's hosting the Emissary to participate on Condition Ground? For instance, Aurang told Sarcellus the Second about Nin'Ciljiras' activity. Kellhus has certainly gotten as much, if not much more, information from the skin-spies as Moenghus the Elder did.

[Triskele]

- Where is it mentioned that the anyone of the Ordeal believes Nil'giccas isn't king? Serwa mentions Nil'giccas as King, Kellhus clearly perpetuates the lie with Nin'sariccas (probably because not revealing what you know for no good reason is great strategy), Proyas reflects on having sent thousands of ships towards Ishterebinth to treat with Nil'giccas... As far as whatever it is commonly disseminated among humans about the Nonmen, if they know anything, it seems that they know Nil'giccas is King.

My previous post was a terrible slip in which a typed in that sentence the exact opposite of what I meant.  An atrocity of a post.  And yet somehow so...memorable. 

Haha, yeah, I meant why does Kellhus allow the whole Ordeal to believe that the Nonman King is Nil'giccas when Kellhus clearly must know that Cleric is long gone and has been for some time.  That's what I was trying to get at. 

And it's not just that Kellhus could be going along w/ the Emissary's lies because it's more than that as you pointed out...several characters seems to believe that they are privy to the knowledge of who rules in Ishterebinth, but they are deceived.  Why the deception?

[Cüréthañ]

And it's not just that Kellhus could be going along w/ the Emissary's lies because it's more than that as you pointed out...several characters seems to believe that they are privy to the knowledge of who rules in Ishterebinth, but they are deceived.  Why the deception?

I don't see why not. 
Kellhus isn't going to share information when he's running a double bluff.
It would suit the consult if they think Kellhus believes Ishterebinth is still run by a Siqu king.

[Wilshire]

Why not the deception? He's been consistently lying to everyone for just about his entire stint in the three seas.

[Borque]

The big question here - that we dont have the answer to, but Kellhus certainly has - is WHY Ishterebinth has joined the Consult.

I believe Kellhus has calculated that this reason is a very good one, from the Nonman perspective, and he won't be able to win them over.

So Kellhus will, somewhat surprisingly, massacre the shit out of the Quya with Chorae-tipped arrows at a convenient time, possibly on arrival, and then incinerate/dice all the non-sorcerous ones.

(click to show/hide)

This theory is supported by Moe indicating to Sorweel that Team Niom will die quite soon.

We are heavily conditioned by Tolkien here, and automatically believe that elves (and thereby elf-analogues) will do the right thing in the end, and that they are somehow inherently "good", while Bakker repeatedly tells us through Akka and Serwa how different they are from us.   

ETA: Apparently the comment from Moe was in the Chapter 3 excerpt from TUC. Thus I have spoiler tagged it.

[Cüréthañ]

I think so too.  The Intact may well be as common as leprechauns.

Damnation seems tied to the things nonmen can't forget.

[Madness]

Haha, yeah, I meant why does Kellhus allow the whole Ordeal to believe that the Nonman King is Nil'giccas when Kellhus clearly must know that Cleric is long gone and has been for some time.  That's what I was trying to get at. 

And it's not just that Kellhus could be going along w/ the Emissary's lies because it's more than that as you pointed out...several characters seems to believe that they are privy to the knowledge of who rules in Ishterebinth, but they are deceived.  Why the deception?

+1 to Curethan and Wilshire's responses to this. Is it deception or omission?

More strange than those highlights though (don't needlessly share information, deceive by omission) is that even Proyas, but by extension all peoples, doesn't seem to understand the benefits of having Quya (especially ridiculous as the Ordeal will be fighting full-blown Consult Erratics, at some point).

I mean, if even ten of the Quya of Ishterebinth are as devastating as Cleric, that would seem to pretty effectively balance against a whole School of Anagogic Sorcerers.

But ultimately, if I was Kellhus, I wouldn't share anything that might leak to the Consult - especially regarding my endgame.

Everyone is on a strictly need to know basis. And when they need to know, it's probably because their usefulness is at an end, and they are no longer needed.

The big question here - that we dont have the answer to, but Kellhus certainly has - is WHY Ishterebinth has joined the Consult.

Well, Nil'giccas' pride is entirely contextual to him withholding the existence of the Inverse Fire from the other Nonmen.

If they have wholesale joined the Consult, in my mind, and Nil'giccas left because of their decision, then it is because someone has told them the "truth" of the Inverse Fire.

However, to bullet-point:

- All of the Nonmen have turned to the Consult, Nil'giccas left because of this decision, and the Emissary, Nin'sariccas, lies to Kellhus.
- Some of the Nonmen have turned to the Consult, Nil'giccas left because of this change, and the Emissary, Nin'sariccas lies to Kellhus.
- Some of the Nonmen have turned to the Consult, Nil'giccas left because of this change, and the Emissary, Nin'sariccas tells Kellhus what he believes to be true.

(These don't include my preferential nerdanel that a Dunyain has Conditioned Ishterebinth.)

[Wilshire]

The big question here - that we dont have the answer to, but Kellhus certainly has - is WHY Ishterebinth has joined the Consult.

I believe Kellhus has calculated that this reason is a very good one, from the Nonman perspective, and he won't be able to win them over.

So Kellhus will, somewhat surprisingly, massacre the shit out of the Quya with Chorae-tipped arrows at a convenient time, possibly on arrival, and then incinerate/dice all the non-sorcerous ones.

This theory is supported by Moe indicating to Sorweel that Team Niom will die quite soon.

We are heavily conditioned by Tolkien here, and automatically believe that elves (and thereby elf-analogues) will do the right thing in the end, and that they are somehow inherently "good", while Bakker repeatedly tells us through Akka and Serwa how different they are from us.

I like this whole post. Unfortunately I agree with pretty much all of it so I don't have much else to say.

[Borque]

I like this whole post. Unfortunately I agree with pretty much all of it so I don't have much else to say.

Thanks. I'm of course not 100% convinced this is how things will turn out, but I consider this is a very probable, though tragic and depressing,  outcome.

As I said, the "why", the reason Ishterebinth has turned, will be key.

On another note, I hope Scott provides an explanation for why Ishoriöl changed name to Ishterebinth. Dunno why I'm so curious about that one, but this question keeps bothering me for some reason.

[Madness]

As I said, the "why", the reason Ishterebinth has turned, will be key.

No thoughts on this then, Borque:

If they have wholesale joined the Consult, in my mind, and Nil'giccas left because of their decision, then it is because someone has told them the "truth" of the Inverse Fire.

I think that is the only reason the Intact would turn and the only reason other than greater trauma that the Erratics would turn.

On another note, I hope Scott provides an explanation for why Ishoriöl changed name to Ishterebinth. Dunno why I'm so curious about that one, but this question keeps bothering me for some reason.

Probably when Ishoriol became the Last of the Mansions after the Apocalypse and the loss of Cil-Aujus. Then "Exalted Hall" becomes "Exalted Stronghold?"

[Borque]

As I said, the "why", the reason Ishterebinth has turned, will be key.

No thoughts on this then, Borque:

If they have wholesale joined the Consult, in my mind, and Nil'giccas left because of their decision, then it is because someone has told them the "truth" of the Inverse Fire.

I think that is the only reason the Intact would turn and the only reason other than greater trauma that the Erratics would turn.

Yes. If the Consult managed to convince them that Nil'G lied, for example by letting them send an Intact Ishterebinthian over to take a look at the IF for himself, that would do the trick.

Btw, I think Nil'giccas having lied about the IF is what Gin'Yursis refers to in Cil-Aujas, when he says "They betrayed... You betrayed...".

ETA: On the other hand, if the reason is something weaker than this, then Kellhus might be able to persuade them to actually join the Ordeal for real. Like, for example, Aurax promising not to send oceans of Sranc into Injor-Niyas in exchange for them not being an annoyance.

On another note, I hope Scott provides an explanation for why Ishoriöl changed name to Ishterebinth. Dunno why I'm so curious about that one, but this question keeps bothering me for some reason.

Probably when Ishoriol became the Last of the Mansions after the Apocalypse and the loss of Cil-Aujus. Then "Exalted Hall" becomes "Exalted Stronghold?"

I think it had changed names before Cil-Aujas fell. If the PoN Timeline wikia page at http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline is correct (can't check the TTT appendix myself atm) it changed names even before Mog-Pharau was summoned (see entry for year 2132).

[Madness]

Yes. If the Consult managed to convince them that Nil'G lied, for example by letting them send an Intact Ishterebinthian over to take a look at the IF for himself, that would do the trick.

...

ETA: On the other hand, if the reason is something weaker than this, then Kellhus might be able to persuade them to actually join the Ordeal for real. Like, for example, Aurax promising not to send oceans of Sranc into Injor-Niyas in exchange for them not being an annoyance.

The Nonman are really angsty. I'm sure Mekeritrig could convince the Nonmen to believe him at this point in the game, without the IF.

But I think Kellhus himself has a great argument in allowing the Nonmen to hybrid with Serwa (or Mimara, if Esmenet's line has Nonman blood and Kellhus knew this) (though, obviously, these will continue to raise challenges and issues with Bakker's treatment of women - which I will enjoy the hell out of debating).

Btw, I think Nil'giccas having lied about the IF is what Gin'Yursis refers to in Cil-Aujas, when he says "They betrayed... You betrayed...".

Me too. I'm glad Bakker is so diligently meticulous. There is a storied past to the Nonmen and I cannot wait . Four Revelations also offers dissension commentary regarding Cu'jara Cinmoi (who I think colluded to betray with Nil'giccas over whatever the contemporary issue was).

I think it had changed names before Cil-Aujas fell. If the PoN Timeline wikia page at http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline is correct (can't check the TTT appendix myself atm) it changed names even before Mog-Pharau was summoned (see entry for year 2132).

I'd guess Mannish Pronoun then (as "apparently" Ishual is)? Does it ever say what Cil-Aujas is supposed to mean? Or is Aenaratiol the true name of the Mansion and not the name for the Ziggurat mountain peak? (TJE, p382).

EDIT: The PON wiki is a very bastardized version of the Glossary. While the creator (who did an excellent job regardless) did work the available citations, some descriptions are speculative and many have been cut and pasted so to provide the entirety a greater sense of narrative (and chronological) structure (most obviously, the timeline).

[mrganondorf]

@ Madness - would be strange if the Consult added the bit about Nonmen being false and it's true. 

It still bugs me that the Nonmen banned the Aporos--the mansions could use chorae against each other just as well as school vs school.  That the prohibition was 'religious' doesn't seem to matter much to the practicality of chorae, UNLESS they mean 'religious' like they think using chorae will upset gods that will wreak general, random havoc on Earwe.

I had never thought about all of that stuff together about Gin-yursis--amazing.  This guy needs to be in the story MORE.  Prominent role in Book 1 of the First Apocalypse?

"Quya specifically applies to hereditary sorcerers, no?"  Oh yeah.  That emissary/suspected son of Nil'Giccas is going to do some badass magic.

About that witch-king--don't suppose that term means 'magic female ruler'?  What about Nonman witches?  Need an Atrocity Tale about that.

All this speculation about quyan bloodlines has got me thinking--were the first pupils in the tutelage half-nonmen sons?  The mafia/family analogy extended into human lines?

I have sometimes wondered if all of Kellhus' attempts to contact/gain the last mansion are some kind of monstrous sacrifice to keep the Consult from knowing that he is aware that the last mansion belongs to the Ark.  This only makes sense if his knowledge of their secret is going to be some huge advantage either on the battlefield (can't see what it would be) or if Kellhus plans to use Ishterebinth, post Great Ordeal collapse.  I mean, he wants to delay any outright hostility beween the Ordeal the Nonmen until it is too late.

---------------------

@ Curethan - I kind of thought the narrative purpose of Auja-Gilcunni was to just mark a backwards limit on language.  Its unknown and has to stay that way or else Bakker's rabid fans will start bugging him for an even older language.  IDK

---------------------

@ Ciogli - I'm also hoping for a Silmarillion/Nonman thing.  Would be sweet.  Am also hoping to see Nin.  I really want him to have some kind of important role.  As first nonman to be cursed with immortality, he would be some kind of crazy yardstick for all the others.  I find Bakker's silence about Nin telling…

---------------------

@ EkyannusIII - I like your spoiler idea, but you could turn it around too.  The Inchoroi on Earwe are the most inept at doing what Inchoroi do. 

---------------------

@ Triskele - I agree with you that we shouldn't take Cleric's views on what happens in Ishterbinth as scripture--I think Bakker did that to just move another battline between Consult vs Foes to be inside of the mansion.  The scenes wouldn't be as cool unless there was indication that the Ordeal Sorweel and co left was also fighting inside the last mansion.

---------------------

@ Borque - I agree, you've put your finger on the mystery: why has Isterebinth fallen now?  Could be attrition (falling for the same reasons any nonman falls) or something cooler?  Consult say they can bring back the wives?  Can restore happy memories?  Are planning the biggest 'trauma that provokes memory' ever?

That's fucking awesome what you said about "they betrayed…you betrayed"  Love it.

---------------------

I'm also wondering if we are going to across any surprising 'good guy' sranc.  If there's been a tutelage for sranc too.  I find the idea impossible, but it would make a cool surprise.  Well-spoken sranc sitting around in plushy chairs, reading ancient tomes, sporting monocles.  If anyone had the time/resources to create an elevated sranc, it would be Ishterbinth.

[Wilshire]

All this speculation about quyan bloodlines has got me thinking--were the first pupils in the tutelage half-nonmen sons?  The mafia/family analogy extended into human lines?

I find this less than likely. Except for maybe 1 noteable (possible) exception, there has never been any successful interbreeding that we know of. Besides, I think teaching the new humans was condescending enough, trying to procreate with them would probably ostracize any of the Tutors from the remaining nonmen.

[Madness]

@ Madness - would be strange if the Consult added the bit about Nonmen being false and it's true. 

+1 for nerdanel.

It still bugs me that the Nonmen banned the Aporos--the mansions could use chorae against each other just as well as school vs school.  That the prohibition was 'religious' doesn't seem to matter much to the practicality of chorae, UNLESS they mean 'religious' like they think using chorae will upset gods that will wreak general, random havoc on Earwe.

I think they banned the Chorae because it leveled the playing field too much, it took the skill out of having power over one another.

I had never thought about all of that stuff together about Gin-yursis--amazing.  This guy needs to be in the story MORE.  Prominent role in Book 1 of the First Apocalypse?

+1 for Gnosis-Giving Heretic.

About that witch-king--don't suppose that term means 'magic female ruler'?  What about Nonman witches?  Need an Atrocity Tale about that.

All this speculation about quyan bloodlines has got me thinking--were the first pupils in the tutelage half-nonmen sons?  The mafia/family analogy extended into human lines?

All this speculation about quyan bloodlines has got me thinking--were the first pupils in the tutelage half-nonmen sons?  The mafia/family analogy extended into human lines?

I find this less than likely.

This all just blew my mind.

To the top... amazing. Su'juroit is a Nonwoman.

To the bottom and Wilshire's quote, +1 Wilshire but I'm totally about the Mafia Nonmen Quya lines.

I think Bakker did that to just move another battline between Consult vs Foes to be inside of the mansion.  The scenes wouldn't be as cool unless there was indication that the Ordeal Sorweel and co left was also fighting inside the last mansion.

+1