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Messages - Inchoboi

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The No-God / Re: Will the Mutilated step out of the shadows?
« on: May 23, 2018, 04:18:04 pm »
Gnosis? I thought it was implied that Kellhus was unique among them in that regard... delivered to the Tekne vs delivered to the Gnosis (and Daimos)?

To me the No-God's questions seem to be basically the manifestation of it's "hunger" to BE, it's simply functioning as it must in the only way it can due to it's construction/components and it's pre-determined programming.  We know Kelmomas' brain is different from others' which is the reason he is a viable Insertant. The No-God's questions sound like they're from one twin to the other. Without the constant input from the bodily-active/first-person twin's thoughts, the second twin is left baying at the gates so to speak. "Neither of them" can know that they "both" suffer the same fate. To THEM (if such a statement is applicable) I assume it feels like they've been cut-off from one another, this being the cause of the No-God's "hunger", the desire to be whole again... TO BE.

Parentheses because we know they constantly swap; "Kelmomas" as watched/Object, "Samarmus" as watcher/Subject. Now they're at once both, and neither of these things. Zero and One.

I'm sure there was a lot of discussion about it already, but there's clearly something up with the Judging Eye and the No-God. Scenes where TJE opened in the Great Ordeal mention "Sranc squealing in the black" and the like.  Most believable for me is that the Judging Eye only exists due to the No-God existing (and thus it exists/has existed retroactively). Some of you would probably be able to conceptualize it better, but for lack of a better way to share the thought I'll do my best.

TNG collapsing of Kel/Sam certainily ruined the God of God's cycle, it glitched the system and "woke" the God. We know for sure that only women who give birth to still-born children have TJE, but I think that twins are a part of that requirement as well. Because Mimara would have the twins she carries, she has TJE and thus has had/will have it her whole life... maybe not ONLY because one would die, but SPECIFICALLY because of that circumstance in addition to the No-God doing its subject-object collapse. I think, due to souls sharing the same space, that the collapse of Kel and Sam somehow also happens to Mimara's twins... blinding the Judging Eye in the same way that we're blind to how our brains work. Seeing, feeling, understanding how our brains do what they do is not a function of our brains, and I believe here that seeing, feeling, understanding itself is not a function of the God.

What could this mean? Hell, anything. But sounds logical to me that the world being Shut and the lack of new (live) births makes sense if you are willing to entertain the thought that at this time (post-Resumption), the "shared space" that's orthogonal to Bios, has collapsed into ONE place... ALL souls, or at least the remaining/unclaimed Portion were born into Mimara's baby?

Can't forget to include!

The Ark, The Inchoroi, The Progenitors - Okay, I am going to go ahead and jump into the clearly less popular opinion and side with Ajencis, that genius dude who was like "Wait wtf? There's no way they flew to other planets!" due to the identical locations of stars when charted from different corners of the World. "The stars would move relative one another were they not uniformly embedded in a sphere hanging a fixed distance about the Sky."
....Okay, yeah Ajencis might not be aware of Tekne and it's possibilities... but I am far more inclined to trust in him (and his statement about the stars/sky/universe) than the Inchoroi. In Ajencis' Glossary entry in TUC, this line caught my eye in regards to the discussions in this thread: "In fact, he observed that most individuals posses no criteria whatsoever for their beliefs" - which I include here specifically because the Inverse Fire is seemingly ALL the Inchoroi are basing their beliefs on (that and whatever "programming" their Bios was crafted with). The Mutilated claim they "outlived their origins" or some such, but who is to say that they ever knew their origins? They are a creation, that much is obvious... but truly, what reason have we to believe in "Progenitors", or believe that a weapon race like the Inchoroi would A.) Tell the truth if they knew it or B.) KNOW in the first place?

The Inchoroi are doing no more or less than what their Goad(s) call upon them to do - they create the No-God, they wake the God. Who wants to wake the God? The Vision/no-haloes Kellhus! (Which I think is Outside-Kellhus, but could certainly be a lot of other Things.)

The tapestry thingy that was flashing a code of sorts which only WLW/Sorweel (right?) and Kellhus could see/read = I can't help but think Kellhus made the Inverse Fire. 

Got way too much to add as usual and this is more than enough for one post. :P

ETA: There's no real need for "Progenitors" or actual other worlds/Grounds from my perspective. The Inchies are probably deceived. The Nail is where the Ark came from and it could be the Outside as much as it could be a Wormhole, or from Earwa's past/future, I hope we find out!

The Unholy Consult / Re: Decapitant on a Pole Behind You?
« on: January 29, 2018, 06:17:56 pm »
TL, that occurred to me too, the heart is a big stick in the theory for sure. I will say, I'm not sure that TNG walking and it's effects on the gods is or can nrvessarily be something immediate, I'd assume it would take time to affect them, somehow proportionate to how many souls die and aren't cycled back into the Outside. But I readily concede that I don't really understand how this alzhiemers would effect them, or even understand the mind-functions  the gods have/had to begin with.

Another interesting thought actually just occurred to me while typing this reply - Kellhus' siezing and ripping about the pole to transform here into here, changing from the perspective of in Hell to in Heaven, can this somehow be explained by a head-swap?

Maybe the Plains head-swapping feat is when the Outside scene takes place. That could be a scenario where Kell both has "a head on a pole behind him" while "his heart beats still", during a time where he's doing crazy Daimotic shit which is the most plausible textual part of the series for such an occurrence (we get fuck-all else of a clue with the lack of Kellhus perpectives).

We know that one of the Sons talks to Kell in the "Other Sons"/Heaven location, this most Crocodillian Son, but the "Other" title wasnt used, perhaps that's significant and this agent speaking is just a Ciphrang (I posited that it could be Cnaiur, who's Ciphrang-self would in theory be there even if his body was alive during this time period due to atemporal Outside stuffs).

Or, it could have been one of the gods (apart from Ajokli) who speaks to Kell in that scene, with this actually being the first manifestion or "birth" of Ajokli. It would explain how Ajokli is different from the other gods. "We pondered you."

More thoughts!

Couldn't the Outside scene still be in the same time frame as the Golden room whether or not Kellhus has his "portion" safelty tucked away in a Decapitant.

It might go something like:

-Ajokli is manifesting in Kellhus ever more the closer he gets to the golden room. Imagine the opposite is true also; The more A is K, the more K is A.

-Passes threshold at some point.

-Kellhus thinks the "he is here with you" thought from the Outside scene, Ajokli is speaking with his voice in the GR.

-Kellhus explores his Outside surroundings, sees the Sons.

-As Kellhus' head alights with Ajokli fully manifested, Kellhus "siezes" the Outside, his will being strong enough to access (or create) the Heavens with the gods, who then say they pondered him - maybe because at this exact moment, Resumption starts, and this, Kellhus (as Ajokli?) here in the outside is the last perception the gods have, making it likely that the Crocodillian Son is Gilgaol and this scene the reason for the CelmomIan prophecy featuring Kellhus.  I like that better than the explanation that "they couldn't see Kelmomas so looked to Kellhus as their best guess".

-Then, Kellhus' body is salted.....



The Unholy Consult / Decapitant on a Pole Behind You?
« on: January 29, 2018, 07:51:22 am »

I feel like the OP of this r/Bakker post is on point re: the scenes in the Outside being Kellhus' perspective after salting and being inside of a decapitant. I also agree to an extent with the person who replied that the "seizing/ripping about the pole" and transforming here into here is somehow moving from Hell to Heaven (so to speak) and that the Other Sons are the gods/100.

Obviously, post-salting/death seems the most plausible "time/place" for Kell's Outside scene occur and ties in nicely with "The living shall not haunt the dead" if he is some form of "alive".

Putting lots of words on screen now-

1. Kellhus is in the place with Sons (we can call it Hell) and is apparently tempted by a random Ciphrang to eat from an opened-up baby. I think think this was just a demon tactic to get him to feel afraid/disgusted/angry/scared/sad/whatever since he then sees more Ciphrang descending like locusts lured by his "meat" which we must assume means they're craving whatever he's feeling and coming to try to eat him/tear at his seams again, which doesn't work because (whatever the mechanics are) he isn't "dead enough". Probably isn't pleasant for Kellhus, so he does the switcheroo and...

2. Now Kell is with the Other Sons who are reclining and drinking from the sky (in Heaven), they aren't desperate and ravenous and swarming like the Sons/normal Ciphrang because so many people (whether intentionally or not) offer/devote themselves to these gods (or the opposite, depending) and are received or "seized".  We're told extra-textually by Bakker and I believe also somewhere within the books somewhere that the gods don't have agency which is a confusing concept for me. Well, I don't know what definition of agency we're supposed to be using but in this particular scene we have one example of exactly one of the Other Sons who directly "speaks" to Khellus: The most Crocodilian of (Other?) Sons - who can this be? Does speaking - which AFAIK is acting intentionally toward a specific end result - not imply agency?  Didn't a Ciphrang speak to him in Hell as well? Presumably this Croc can't be Ajokli because (in theory) post-Khellus' salting Ajokli is/was/would be (stuck?) in the Inward possessing Cnaiur and walking into the Whirlwind (and.... from there ceasing to exist?). His ravings through Cnaiur make it clear he can't find Khellus insofar as he can "look for him" but we're unsure at this point if Ajokli is even capable of knowing whether Khellus is Outside or not.

3. Not sure if Kellhus' specific use of "heart beats still" is meant to be taken literally.... considering Khellus' salt-statue status I don't know what heart this could refer to other than perhaps Seswatha's? It could ofc just be a way for Kellhus to calm himself, but I mean he does make plenty of references to the head which from my read is basically just to calm himself. Why mention a heart at all if he knows his is salt?

4. Once in "Heaven" with the Other Sons, Kellhus refers to this place as "where he has always waited, always watched" - this makes no sense to me unless once Khellus is "Out there" he has the same all-of-time perspective as the gods do. I'm not sure how the mechanics for Decapitants work but as far as we know Malowebi is only experiencing things his fixed position on Kellhus'-body's hip allow him, and nothing of the Outside.  This could mean Kellhus used a different Decapi-Cant on Malowebi than he did on himself, or having this Outside perspective (whether hes actually in a Decapitant or not) could rather be something that Kellhus is able to do now specifically because of...

5. Subsumption. Subsume was a very specific word for the Mutilated to use in how they conquered the Consult and we generally assume Shae and the Mutilated are now one - without trying to truly understand how 4 individual living soul-filled bodies and 1 "living" disembodied "soul" can all "be one" or what it might mean to each individual's experience IF even able to be perceived by the "individuals" in question... I have no idea what Shauriatis' experience might be like, but it seems at least for Kelmomas and Samarmas you wouldn't be able to tell a difference which "soul" is performing or controlling your thoughts/actions. Getting to the point I'm trying to make - subsumption could be occurring with Kellhus and Ajokli rather than any "possession" of Ajokli over Kellhus. In some paradoxical way, maybe Kellhus would become and therefore always has been Ajokli? If that logic can apply to Kelmomas being the No-God I think it's fair play to apply it here?

6. I believe on another Reddit post, somebody raised an interesting point running with the obvious possibility that Khellus was aware of many things that we didn't know he was aware of (for lack of a better term, "everything"). He studied the Daimos and shortly thereafter came Kel+Sam who happen to be exactly what is required for TNG's Resumption. He saved Esmi and Kel, he chained Kel up and reverse-psychology'd Esmi into letting him loose. How he could have been sure Kel would show up at the Golden Room I couldn't guess, but if one were to accept the possibility that Kellhus planned (or had backups for) the exact events that occurred, it seems to line up okay. I know we have Bakker's word to the contrary, but that's no fun for theorycrafting and crackpotting!

7. It could be that the Son who talks to Kellhus, this Crocodilian Son, isn't one of the Other Sons, isn't a god.  If that were to be the case, this Ciphrang(?) could just be someone who was devoted to or seized by one of the gods - still, who? It sounds like Cnaiur to me, which can make sense. Once Whirlwind-blasted, Cnaiur would go to the Outside and he could easily be offered to/seized by Gilgaol; alternatively he could be there because of how much he HATES Ajokli-who-is-Kellhus (don't remember if he's one who likes being worshipped or likes being hated), which would be extra spicy! If Kellhus wasn't destined-to-be-and-so-already-had-been Ajokli before the events in TUC, then who was Ajokli and who/what/where is he now? If he was "re-written", then from whom to whom or what to what?

8. TUC glossary on the Incu-Holoinas says scholars agree that the Ark was made for flight, but not between stars/not in space. They think it's from the Outside. So... surely the Ark has to have come from the Nail of Heaven, but I don't think I can believe that this material object "came from" the Outside as Acenjis believed. I think it has to have come from the future because nothing else makes sense.
The Ark is believed to have been sent by Ajokli no less, which makes me think Kellhus has something to do with it, not least of all because it is such an intrinsic part of the events that cause the outcome we reach at the end of TUC. Here again I'm assuming that Kellhus is in control of more than he fully understands at any given moment (After determining Before and all). I think his darkness could for sure include Greater Kellhus who could be MUCH, MUCH greater than lesser Kellhus may realize at any point during the first 7 books if in some paradoxical way he has always been (fated to become) Ajokli. Maybe the whole other continent is full of Dunyain-level intellects and knowledge of the Tekne.

Or maybe that's the future that the current story is headed to? Watch the "swarming millions" that the inchoroi cite having once been, end up being fucking Sranc.

Damn, just gonna hit post now before I keep going!

If there are rules against linking outside threads, my apologies.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
« on: August 01, 2017, 06:01:06 am »
Tbh I'm not buying it. Too much of a "gotcha", too much colored string and dots being connected behind the scenes for a pretty lukewarm "twist": that it was Shae all along.

Bakker's tendency to do big surprise reveals and to present fairly opaque but punchy metaphors leads to a tendency for members of this board to shoot off down strange paths based some of the more unusual passages.  This forum is thick with pet theories.

For me that's part of the fun. I wouldn't "know" half as much as I "know" by just reading the books. It took other people's perspectives on many many things for me to reach conclusions which I've been able to accept... and yes of course, some of them turn out to be wrong. But sometimes they turn out to be right, too...

And it's great discussion either way!

The Unholy Consult / Re: Ajokli's larger presence
« on: August 01, 2017, 05:41:38 am »
My bet is only. I think the secret to the Decapitants Glossary entry is that Ajokli convinced Kellhus to try and pull the stunt at Mengedda but that Topos was insufficient.

That was my initial thought too, but it is also plausible that he was not inhabited by Ajokli just yet.  Could could have been testing how a topos would effect him switching (which he might need to do in the case something went wrong).

What if the Heqad on a Pole is actually another Decapitant that Kellhus hid somewhere in the Outside?  That whole Head on a Pole thing gets me wrapped around the axle every time I try to tear it apart for some bit of substantive information.  The only thing I think I see, now that you posted this and got my brain moving, is that at one point one of the Demons tries to take him, but Kellhus said he can't.  Because of the Head of a Pole Behind him.  He uses it somehow to transport himself to a place WHERE HE IS ALWAYS HIDDEN, but always watched.  Hidden, perhaps, from Ajokli?

"They seize him from time to time, the Sons of this place, and he feels the seams tear, hears his scream. But he cannot come apart - for unlike the Countless Dead his heart beats still.
His heart beats still.
There is a head on a pole behind you."


"Because you fear not damnation.
Because there is a head on a pole behind you."

I think it's strongly implied that it isn't just the head on a pole that keeps him safe, because there's also a beating heart. He's chilling out there in the general Outside and is assaulted by Ciphrang, but they can't hurt him since he's alive, so his thoughts/emotions/memories (his subjective experience) are bound to that head on that pole, but only because he's alive. Malowebi is a Decapitant, we can see that he retains his "self", his thoughts/emotions/memories, subjective experience. He (or at least the parts of his "self" that he is aware of) can't see any Sons/Ciphrang. It's likely that if Khellus is a Decapitant, and Malowebi's condition is how being a Decapitant works, then Khellus' Soul/Self is currently cut off from (being able to interact with) the World, as we see Malowebi.

TUC gives us a lot of neat stuff in the Glossary.

On the Outside-
"The many regions of the Outside then represent diminishing levels of objectivity, where circumstances yield more and more to desire. This, he claims, is what defines the 'spheres of dominance' of Gods and demons."

"The more powerful entities of the Outside dwell in "sub-realities" that conform to their desires."

Meanwhile in TGO Head-on-a-Pole scene:

"So he seizes the lake and the thousand babes and the void and the massing-descending Sons and the lamentations-that-are-honey, and he rips them about the pole, transforms here into here, this-place-inside-where-you-sit-now, where he has always hidden, always watched, where Other Sons, recline, drinking from bowls that are skies, savouring the moaning broth of the Countless, bloating for the sake of bloat, slaking hungers like chasms, pits that eternity had rendered Holy..."

Wherever this place is that Khellus has always hidden and watched, there are Other Sons, whereas in the general Outside there are just Sons. So presumably, Other Sons = Gods, Sons = Ciphrangs. One thing about this that troubles me somewhat is that if individual powerful entities have their own special bubbles of reality, why is Khellus shown popping into his "here where he has always hidden/watched" which we could assume is his own bubble of reality, yet Ajokli (presumably; the most crocodilian [Other] Son) is there, and apparently so are other Other Sons... so where is this place, and why aren't these guys all in their own bubbles? Why are we only given Ajokli's dialogue with Khellus, and why does he seem to speak for the other Gods?

We pondered you, says the most crocodilian of the Sons.
"But I have never been here."
You said this very thing,

It's hard for me to keep it short and simple, yet also hard for me to explain my thoughts because there's so much to try to grasp and explain, but my attempts at understanding are something like this.

When Khell "goes to the Outside" the Gods having already seen it ("we pondered you") could imply that they just always knew it happened since it eventually was going to, which they would.
But there's the "always hidden, always waited" and "this-place-inside-where-you-sit-now", which I interpret as in Khellus' own mind, which is probably as close as a living person in the World can get to the outside (and he sees, though his eyes have rolled into his brow). The Daimos deals with agencies from the Outside. If Khellus ever once used the Daimos to "be in the Outside" that doesn't mean that he literally went somewhere, but rather he summoned it into his mind in some manner.

I want to throw a comment out there that the Hundred, as Principles according to the Nonmen, sound like they make fitting "Aspects" for the million-souled God/The-God (I do believe that "all souls" belong to The God). The Gods/Principles seem to be simply parts/aspects of nature/existence in our World that to us seem to be sufficiently important or intrinsic to our lives and functions that our collective belief in these Principles creates the "agencies" in the Outside - whether there are actual "souls/identities/entities" which somehow take up the mantle of "being" such a Principle, like Anthropomorphized War, Hope, Deceit etc.  I guess could be up for debate, since we have language and intentions from at least Ajokli and Yatwer, I find it likely to be the case.

The Glossary gives us
"elhusioli - The daimos of excess. As per standard Kiunnat metaphysics, souls directly move other souls, impart the imprints of daimos upon another daimos. Some, such as terror or enthusiasm, are set apart for the dramatic nature of their effects."

We also learn that according to Acenjis, once again referring to the Outside:
"...argues that it is the relation between subject and object, desire and reality, that underwrites the structure of existence."

We learn from the "Consult Dunyain"(-riatis) that the No-God is a device which collapses Subject and Object.

I think Khellus Daimos'd any number Outside-based agencies using the "elhusioli". I'd imagine you can't really imprint much of your own daimos onto a sufficiently powerful Outside entity, so I assume Khell has imprinted himself with the daimos of some number of the Gods (perhaps all?) - the two I find most likely and who I believe the Decapitants to be, are Ajokli and Onkis. In lieu of any real evidence to include Onkis in this, I feel like the two key things Khellus is most known for are instilling hope and lying his ass off.

If Khellus was able with his various abilities to deduce the way the Outside works and also the way the No-God works, its plausible that he's literally trying to re-write the Hundred like he says they're doing at some point in TUC. How exactly that works, I couldn't tell ya... but if Subject & Object collapsing opens up an opportunity to re-write reality, this is a Dunyain's chance to start scribbling.

I'm full of crackpots obviously, still just grasping. I've never really liked the early big Moe theories but when I look at Cnaiur and how hateful he is and how Ajokli just seemingly took him over or ascended from him, it makes me wonder.
Was that Ajokli's birth, Cnaiur ascending to become Ajokli?
I can't help but wonder how much of his hatefulness is Conditioned? How far back does Moe's manipulation go, how much did he know about the Consult, how much did he know about the No-God? At the bottom of it... how far did Moe's Thousandfold Thought really go? Surely he wouldn't give away all of what he'd learned if he planned to kill Khell and proceed as his Thought dictated. He would be EVEN LESS LIKELY to divulge all information if his Thought did indeed see all the way to the end - attaining the Absolute - and yet required Khellus to do all the things we've seen him do, as Khellus could, even necessarily WOULD usurp the Thought from his father just as he now believes he has.

Let's not let it slip past us that Iyokus was blinded, yet remained able to practice the Daimos. I doubt Bakker would blind this man for no good reason, eh?

The Tapestry is also interesting, Bakker tells us Khellus doesn't know its significance (or purpose, paraphrasing). I have to assume Moe does... and can't help but wonder if Khell's "old man" will awake behind the eyes of this babe.

WOW, that's a lot of crap. I apologize for the wall-of-textiness. Can't wait to see what other people have interpreted so far! It seems clear that SOMEONE, likely an Anasurimbor, will become the new God-of-Gods when all is said and done if such is possible (and I'm not sure that it is, or if it is, that one would particularly find it enjoyable to simply "be"; I THINK that I believe the God of Gods is just the totality of everything), and if not or in addition to someone becoming the God of Gods, I'm gonna bet that if the 100 were people at some point before becoming Gods we'll see (the most obvious examples) a new Mother of Birth in Mimara, a new Whore in Esmenet... and if Moe is the guy who "dunnit" and becomes or fails to become the God of Gods then I can see Khellus being the new Ajokli. 

Becoming one of the Hundred might be the "highest tier" of existence attainable without being a blind, "sleeping" God of Gods/totality of existence. I'm not sure at all what significance the Judging Eye has as of yet, but if it's The God watching then it demonstrates an interest in existence and more-over, AGENCY, which I would have assumed The God (being asleep/shattered into a million ensouled beings) does not have. If Mimara's baby (as a "new soul", Moe's, or Khellus') is going to somehow ascend to become the God of Gods, it may have been there to witness it's own birth? Inasmuch as it could - the Eye was blinded upon looking at Mim's belly. However, we know she still has the Eye. Can the eye never see the baby? If that's the case, would it be because it would collapse Sub & Ob like the No-God?

Thoughts? I don't even know WHERE TO BEGIN when it comes to Nonmen and Imimorul; Seswatha; Progenitors/Ark/Inchoroi, and a thousand thousand other things.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Inchoroi souls
« on: August 01, 2017, 01:50:01 am »
Bakker's post in the Q&A thread re: Kelmomas having "no identity" makes me think that the Confluence is "the soul" because it's where the brainy processes maintain the "you" of your identity. I'm not sure what's wrong with lil Kel to cause the lack of identity  (i.e. why do Sammi and Kel constantly  "soul-swap".) He's insane and has no Confluence? 

Baaadly paraphrasing, he's described by Serwa(?) as a machine programmed to something like dominate his mothers love, or some such, perhaps due to his Dunyain brain processes. In any event, whatever causes or caused it Kelmomas has no true identity, no "soul"... somehow since he's "nobody" he can make the Object work. Wonder if Nau-Cayuti had some sanity issues of his own, or even outside forces causing him to enter such an identity-less state if such is what's required.

This train of thought could  coincide nicely with the Erratic's soul eluding a Ciphrang Bakker on Q&A says the implication is that the Erratic had obtained/reached Oblivion. So does an Erratic have a proper (ly functioning) Confluence? Does he have a true identity? Are the two the same thing?

It's interesting that at times it seems like in a way,  Khellus is all about the loss of identity,  examples "The place that was Khellus", "Here, always here." (Serwa as well seems to show signs of this state on TUC after taking Qirri right?)

What's the difference between Khellus' version of this and Kel's? Is there a difference? Khellus seems aware of himself "becoming here", he seems to be aware of everything! Something to do with the Thousandfold Thought? Is big K GAINING identity when he does this?
Would the No-God have worked with Khellus at all?

Inchoroi MUST have souls, Aurang says "I would save my soul". Their damnation is their goad, we're led to believe.

What implications could soul = identity have on the skin spy sorceror? Could there have been someone else's soul in there, or did it have its own. "Who" was it?

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
« on: August 01, 2017, 12:39:48 am »
Spot on Jurble, I also got this feeling during my first read.

Stuff I thought while reading: Why would they expose and endanger all 5 Dunyain? I think it's a fair Dunyainly assumption that upon finding a Consult Dunyain, Khellus is going to at least tolerate some amount of an exchange of words before insta-killing, some bare minimum question asking/information gathering/plan assessing of some degree. How could he not, right?

So if these "five Dunyain" were expecting a conversation to occur here, I don't see any need for more than one Dunyain to chat with Khellus, and exposing the fact that there are more and exposing ALL of them (indeed, it appears Khellus assumes there are only these 5)  is needless/dumb/unDunyainly.

If "they" were anticipating combat I also think letting Khellus size them up isn't a very Dunyainly thing to do even if some number of them (obviously true for at least 1) could sing Sorcery (Khellus didn't see any Marks that we read about, so no reason to assume he could locate them prior to them revealing themselves, even if all are of the Few). If 4 of these Dunyain (who all know the Ark - and this room has many entrances, recall) could've prepared for a much more tactical approach, it seems in-Dunyainly to me just all walk out at once.

Even disregarding the above though, "their" speech patterns immediately confirmed for me that these "Dunyain" were Shae; it was actually their speech patterns that triggered me to more closely examine the situation and brought about my above suspicions.

Now with the death of one of his "bodies", I'm wondering how such a death will affect him (or indeed, if it even does).

Speaking of... haven't we seen Shae with ten "bodies" so far? At least in TUC, that's the number of Larval bodies in the illusion. Got a feeling as well from the word "subsume"!

Even if we assume that Dunyain bodies are in some way better than the wretches that Shae used to inhabit, such that five is "enough" to house him - would five be "enough" for Shae/the Consult overall? And back to my initial skepticism with it being stupid to reveal all five: if you were Super-Shae with Dunyain-level intelligence, would you put all five of your pieces on the table directly in front of Khellus knowing that if he manages to destroy all five, you're going straight to the hell you've been avoiding for millennia? ("You didn't like the pantomime, heeeere I aaaaam!")

Four remaining "Consult Dunyain" sounds good considering Horsemen and the number of Ajokli's horns, but does sounding likely count for much here?  Food for thought!

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