[Francis Buck]

Damn, some great thoughts here guys. I fear I'm still stubbornly clinging to my "qirri/chanv are the issue of soecerous ash" theory, but regardless, great thoughts.

You know, I think we're definitely seeing another Dune connetion here with the "mysteriously powerful and dangerously addictive substance" concept, which is of course in the vein of the spice melange. But, unsurprisingly given that it's Bakker, it all has to be twisted and tied up with darker, more horrible ideas, like cannibalism.

[Madness]

Lol. Gall, FB. No! They don't even have the same symptoms of use .

You know, I think we're definitely seeing another Dune connetion here with the "mysteriously powerful and dangerously addictive substance" concept, which is of course in the vein of the spice melange. But, unsurprisingly given that it's Bakker, it all has to be twisted and tied up with darker, more horrible ideas, like cannibalism.

Big +1.

[Inraus Ghost]

I'm really starting to doubt that eating Sranc would have any effects similar to qirri (whether it comes from quya or not), because Sranc have no souls. 
Therefore they can't affect your metaphysical state. 

When Akka and Mimara partake of Nil'giccas' ash it's noted "the strength that shivers thru them has a more melancholy tenor." in comparison to the ashs of CC. This indicates who it's made of effects the final product. With souls being the overriding meta physic in Earwa I feel you may be correct.

But then the immortality treatment may be the answer to qirri too, as what ever is sustaining them may have mystic residue. Either way I'm skeptical that eating sranc will have an effect on humans outside the psychological ones.

[Meyna]

Yes, having no effect at all is definitely an option. It might be as simple as Kellhus needing to wait, due to superstition, until everyone was desperate enough before he commanded the consumption of Sranc.

A big piece of evidence that there will be an effect, though, is the fact that the command comes as a book-ending cliffhanger

[Madness]

A big piece of evidence that there will be an effect, though, is the fact that the command comes as a book-ending cliffhanger

Unless Bakker's going to pull a Martin and go all foodstuffs throughout TUC because Sranc is a delicacy that must be served to the World.

The Tekne is cuisine. It's all protein right ?

Ordeal corrals all the Sranc in the World within the space of a year and they are farmed out of existence - Humanity - 1, Meat Food - 0. TSA is actually a commentary on the environment.

Seriously though, how is everyone so convinced that Qirri operates by metaphysical mechanism?

[Meyna]

A big piece of evidence that there will be an effect, though, is the fact that the command comes as a book-ending cliffhanger

Unless Bakker's going to pull a Martin and go all foodstuffs throughout TUC because Sranc is a delicacy that must be served to the World.

The Tekne is cuisine. It's all protein right ?

Ordeal corrals all the Sranc in the World within the space of a year and they are farmed out of existence - Humanity - 1, Meat Food - 0. TSA is actually a commentary on the environment.

Seriously though, how is everyone so convinced that Qirri operates by metaphysical mechanism?

Proyas / Serwa 12-course black wedding!

I don't have my books with me; where does the description of the effects of qirri come from? Akka or NG? It could be a purely physical or psychosomatic reaction instead of a metaphysical reaction, if the users are properly conditioned to react in a certain way.

[Madness]

I don't have my books with me; where does the description of the effects of qirri come from? Akka or NG? It could be a purely physical or psychosomatic reaction instead of a metaphysical reaction, if the users are properly conditioned to react in a certain way.

No one really details the effects. Achamian, Mimara, and to a much lesser extent Cleric do meditate on the Qirri from time to time.

But the Tekne (or the natural Nonperson bios when burnt) could just be a hell of a drug - I tried to detail some of this above in the thread. And not thinking about what drugs do to you is a by-product of doing drugs, really.

[Wilshire]

Seriously though, how is everyone so convinced that Qirri operates by metaphysical mechanism?

Well Tekne is a bio-tech, and, famously, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Magic, in Earwa, is pretty much the same as metaphysics.

Therefore, whether the Tekne is metaphysical or not isn't really an argument at all, but rather two different ways at explaining the same phenomenon.... 

[Madness]

Lol - for comedic value, I'd like to curse at you (though, I support your thinkenearing). But I will resist defacing the monument - I'll leave that for Quorum .

To rephrase: Seriously though, how is everyone so convinced that Qirri operates by thaumaturgical mechanism?

[Wilshire]

Lol - for comedic value, I'd like to curse at you (though, I support your thinkenearing). But I will resist defacing the monument - I'll leave that for Quorum .

The exact response I was hoping for.

To rephrase: Seriously though, how is everyone so convinced that Qirri operates by thaumaturgical mechanism?

Uh, my understand is that 'thaumaturgical'  means some kind of god given power, like Clerics in any D&D Universe, or (perhaps) the Cishaurim in Earwa. So to that I would say: I imagine it would be quite the opposite, since the nonmen and the Gods don't seem to talk much.
Though I imagine I misunderstand.

[Madness]

To rephrase (again): Seriously though, how is everyone so convinced that Qirri works by operating directly on the soul, rather than the bios?

Fucking Wilshire .

[Wilshire]

 

I'm not 100% sure, but I think that more emoticons would have helped make your meaning more clear...

Even though my main goal was to be irritating with that first response, I actually think it has some merit. When you've got a book that has both sci-fi and fantasy elements, the distinction is blurry at best. I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see a couple magical things turn out to  be mechanical, or vice-versa. Compared to the Inchoroi, or the Dunyain even, you have a bunch of primitive minds with effectively no knowledge of technology who have been living along side magic for their whole history.

That doesn't really answer the question though. More directly, it is easier for the reader to take a given character's perceptions/descriptions as facts, rather than try to twist them to some other obscure truth. A Quya, a Wizard, a Wich-to-be, and a bunch of superstitious madmen see Quirri as Magical or somehow divine.... right? Magic is more prevalent in the world than technology (at this point, (so we have been lead to believe)), so again, the magical explanation is easier. Also, the Soul seem to be the least common denominator in all things magical and divine, so by extension....

But consider two things: Most of what the Nonmen are today was forged by the Inchoroi and the Inchoroi did their experimenting before they could see the Onta. This would probably lead one to believe that since the Qirri is made from the ashes of what is basically an Inchoroi experiment, its likely that whatever the effects would be mundane rather than metaphysical.

Though, for the sake of argument, one could say that the Inchoroi are fully consumed by their desire to escape their damnation. This probably leads to an extreme obsession of all things Soul. Why wouldn't they try to develop, using their willing Nonman partners, some kind of meta-biological 'cure' for their condition? Maybe their experiments, while physical in nature, were designed to alter the Nonman Souls. Perhaps they succeeded. Still born children and dying in childbirth could seem like a problem with your Soul if thats what you're looking to find.


There, an answer thats not entirely designed to be irritating .

[Madness]

A Quya, a Wizard, a Wich-to-be, and a bunch of superstitious madmen see Quirri as Magical or somehow divine.... right?

Well, this issue at hand, no?

Achamian just refers to it as a drug. I don't actually think any characters have made an explicit connection between Qirri, the Soul, Magic or the Divine but the forumers have suggested this - hence my query for evidence.

But consider two things: Most of what the Nonmen are today was forged by the Inchoroi and the Inchoroi did their experimenting before they could see the Onta. This would probably lead one to believe that since the Qirri is made from the ashes of what is basically an Inchoroi experiment, its likely that whatever the effects would be mundane rather than metaphysical.

Not sure you've read the past four pages - this has been my argument for the majority of my posts; which leads me over and over to the question of whether burning Nonmen and eating Qirri was a practice before the Womb-Plague or not...

Though, for the sake of argument, one could say that the Inchoroi are fully consumed by their desire to escape their damnation. This probably leads to an extreme obsession of all things Soul. Why wouldn't they try to develop, using their willing Nonman partners, some kind of meta-biological 'cure' for their condition? Maybe their experiments, while physical in nature, were designed to alter the Nonman Souls. Perhaps they succeeded. Still born children and dying in childbirth could seem like a problem with your Soul if thats what you're looking to find.

There, an answer thats not entirely designed to be irritating .

But again where is this evidence that Qirri leverages its effects through the soul, specifically, rather than the body?

[Wic]

Related note, I bet the nonmen make some great amphetamines.

"I CAN SEE THE WOLF IN THREE PLACES AT ONCE!"

[Madness]

Related note, I bet the nonmen make some great amphetamines.

"I CAN SEE THE WOLF IN THREE PLACES AT ONCE!"

This. Amazing.

Almost spit my mouthful of beer all over my laptop and textbook .