[Royce]

Is serious business. I do not have a specific kind of goal with this thread, only to maybe get some new insights into what
you people think "good education" is. In a broad sense I think that all is learning in one way or another, but education in the sense of specific training is something every one of us has to deal with growing up in the modern world.

Say (just to maybe make it more interesting) that humans are socially constructed beings. That means you are being constructed by your environment through ideas on what is best for you as a persona. Eventually you get to choose ideas more freely, but still there are boundaries. Suddenly you are an adult, perfectly constructed to act as a social member of a society, which is dependent on your participation, or else it collapses.

Ok so far so good(bad?). If we then say that those people who planted those ideas in your mind while growing up, are also social constructs, who went through the same conditioning while they grew up, there seems to be a certain pattern here, which goes on and on.

If this concept has any truth to it, education really is serious business. It means that we literally can create any society we want, if we manage to break the patterns of repetitive conditioning, that only serves the status quo. I think that on a deeper human level, it is not enough only to "get a job" that again keeps the capitalist gangbang floating safely into an everlasting sunset of profits and greed.

I want to hear ideas of what you guys think can replace the ideas of profit, and even money as a concept at all?. Are we capable of breaking this extremely unhealthy circle, or do we even want to?

The idea of profit suits the single minded goal driven individual perfectly, but to what end?

What comes after money?, and what will "education" look like if we change course?

[Madness]

Lol - a version of this conversation has come up so many different times with so many different members it was inevitable this happen.

I can't post now but I will definitely think about this today.

Thanks, Royce.

[sciborg2]

Make therapy an acceptable thing for children and adults.

Teach yoga and meditation.

Teach critical thinking, cover the logical fallacies early.

And in honor of John Holt, learn the three things he thought everyone should learn - How to say "I don't Know", "I was Wrong" and "I'm Sorry".

[Callan S.]

Teach them that teachers have weaknesses, conceits - all the very human things which are not super pretty but are super us.

It means that we literally can create any society we want

Not especially - what you want would be largely a result of previous sociatal structure, in your theory. Therefor what the previous generation (and generations before that) constructed would largely inform what 'we want'. We'd form no 'right angle turn' to what the past did and only alter by a few degrees the current momentum of culture.

On currency, I think some people simply have the urge to obsessively collect currency (see alot of players of mmorpgs, for example) and be better than the Jones's next door. But with a ceiling on that, so as to create a system with a number of features: A: With a ceiling that means wealth distribution cannot become so imbalanced with insane difference between individuals. B: It allows wealth distribution to be managed so there is more fair distribution of goods (along with a ceiling, there is a safety net - and not necessarily one of those 'feel guilty like a slave does in order to get your food' safety nets*) because no one has soaked up all the goods with their wealth. C: I've heard communist systems just have one pay for all and basically that sucks - it's boring, uninspirational and we all actually enjoy a certain amount of competition (just not an extreme amount, however one might define that), so it avoids that. We all enjoy beating the jones's a little bit - it's just that most of us don't enjoy it to a fetish level.

I keep thinking about making an text based online multiplayer game, to play out the idea of it (and sometimes playing out an idea leads to it's fruition)

* There's the common complaint of 'how come I have to work to support some layabout' - but the fact is such a model does not fetishise work. Work in such a model would become considerably more lazy (particularly given mechanisation) - start at 10 or 11am, finish in the early afternoon - play with your kids in the park till evening. And for those who fetishize work so they can hit the ceiling, too bad if you support 'the slack' - all you are doing is indulging in your fetish for working anyway. There's no reason anyone else has to do anything just because you indulge your fetish on a regular basis. No, working hard is not 'holy'.

[Alia]

So, I work in education, teaching English to students aged 16-20. And although I try hard to teach them some things in addition to plain language, vocabulary, grammar, reading and writing skills, it's not easy. Especially not at this age, as they already have their own point of view of the world, their own interpretation of life, ambitions, plans. And sometimes I doubt my ability to make a difference. As I've written in another thread, I'm a hopeless humanist, while many of my students are more of extreme right-wing type. And there's a lot of fear and hostility towards the mythical Other, be it a foreigner, a gay or a feminist. I try hard to make them a bit more open-minded, to show them that the world is more complicated that they (and their political idols) believe. Will it change anything? I can only hope.

[Royce]

Nice input so far peoples I will make a more through response later but I would like to share a vid with you, which IMO shows a teacher who is miles apart from my own experience with them. To me it was a very touching experience watching this. It only last 40 min, and I highly recommend it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tLB1lU-H0M

[Madness]

I watched the vid, Royce. And while impressive, one amazing teacher a curriculum does not make . Also, that gave me Japan flashbacks.

To throw out some bulletpoints:

- I support honesty, respect, and communication as it is shown in the video... but that only happens based on the iron will of their teacher.
- Ambidexterity
- Martial arts/dance (bodily control)
- Learn an instrument/music
- Linguistics and multiple languages
- Visual arts
- Meditation and yoga (like Sci mentioned - I actually very much like Sci's post. Though Callan's initial thought and Sci's commentary on critical thinking go together. I know that Bakker addresses the "authority gradient" when he teaches and tries to work to combat it).
- Sensory exercises (learning to read Braille, sign language, cultivating other sensations blindfolded, lipreading)
- Dietary and exercise knowledge

And based on a solid foundation of these concepts, concurrently/subsequently start teaching STEM (science, technology, engineering, math.

I will definitely have more thoughts. Threads can affect change in the world.

I try hard to make them a bit more open-minded, to show them that the world is more complicated that they (and their political idols) believe. Will it change anything? I can only hope.

In an idealized situation like we'll describe here, you wouldn't be alone in your efforts .

[Royce]

What are your experiences with the actual school system today though? I saw this TED talk by a 13 year old boy who has been learning at home. I do not think this is a solution though, since it probably requires rich parents. Either way it is refreshing to see this boy talk. Only ten minutes long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h11u3vtcpaY

[Alia]

Well, from my insider's point of view (bear in mind, however, that's it European, not American), education today is too concentrated on papers and documentation. Everything has to be writted down and documented, so that when some higher instance comes calling to check on us, papers are correct. And as a result we have less time to do actual teaching and general education, because we need to fill in endless papers.

But I don't think home schooling is a good choice, either. Then we have the whole question of socialisation, meeting other people, seeing that they are different, have different abilities, different points of view, different hobbies and interests. Of course, it can be an unpleasant experience (I hated my primary school with all my heart and my classmates were in general rather nasty), but I believe it's necessary. And a good teacher could definitely improve it for his or her students.

[mrganondorf]

I'm in education and often get bogged down by "what the hell's the point of this" but I like to imagine that education makes a big difference in the bigger picture.  I can't see my course making a big difference -- and neither can my students -- but that's only because it's just one thread in the whole thing.  I think there's plenty to be cynical about in education, but we can't even get to those judgments without some education.

[Madness]

I'm in education and often get bogged down by "what the hell's the point of this" but I like to imagine that education makes a big difference in the bigger picture.  I can't see my course making a big difference -- and neither can my students -- but that's only because it's just one thread in the whole thing.  I think there's plenty to be cynical about in education, but we can't even get to those judgments without some education.

My entire post-secondary educational experience has been tedious except the random classes and professors. One teacher can make a difference. Or a great group of peers.

[Kellais]

Finally have a bit of time. There are a lot of new and old threads that i wanted to post in...if only i could live outside of time

Education...oh boy! I love it and i hate it...yes, you heard right
As someone (we seem to be quite a group here!) who now works in edu (Math teacher), i have to have an opinion, right?!
I do think education is a very important part of our society and also an important obligation we have to our young. I agree that it is not easy to give them an education that does not influence too strongly (not sure we got that right in our western culture, though) and, most importantly, makes them able to think for themselves. It can not be the idea just to make them learn stuff by heart. They should be able to think critically and for themselves (i know, i said that already but yes, it is that important).
Unfortunately, a lot of education today seems to me to be geared toward "just learning for the next test, independent of the whole picture" instead of "get my knowledge interconnected between topics so that i can use everything everywhere".
To be fair though, to achieve tha latter thing is veeeery very hard (if i had an idea how to really do that, i'd probably be filthy rich ).

Some thoughts:

Make therapy an acceptable thing for children and adults.

Not sure what exactly you mean here, but i'd be very careful in wishing for that. As i see it, there is way too much "therapy" going on for our young atm (at least around where i live). Just let the young do their stuff and find their own way (within reason, certainly!)...don't take everything out of their hands. Don't treat them like babies all the way to adulthood.

I agree though that if someone really needs therapy, we should not be so judgmental. I think it is a strength of character to admit that you need help. So stop the "you're weak" bullshit.

Not especially - what you want would be largely a result of previous sociatal structure, in your theory. Therefor what the previous generation (and generations before that) constructed would largely inform what 'we want'. We'd form no 'right angle turn' to what the past did and only alter by a few degrees the current momentum of culture.

Oh yeah? And how would you know? Why is your idea more "right" than Royce's theory?
And just because our society moves like that atm does not mean that it always will  move like that or that it always has. There have been quite strong changes in societal structure at times in the past...so i guess right angles are definitely possible.
What i would agree with, though, is that it takes a lot to get such shifts in one jump. And i guess it is a good thing that such jumps only happen every once in a while.
On the other hand, i think we might be close to one such jump. Not sure if we will live to see it...but i think that the way our western society "behaves" atm, there will soon be a lot of jump-energy ... (but that's another topic, i guess).

To the "can i make a difference" - it seems every teacher asks him/herself that question, eh?!
I think that we all do make a difference...maybe not a huge one, but every small difference is one that is worth it, right?! For me, to know that i impart young people with knowledge is a very good feeling.

So even if i am not completely satisfied with the field of education as it stands, i would not change my job for any other.

[Alia]

So, our final year students are close to graduating, they will be doing their final exams in a month's time, because of the Easter break they have already been graded, most students have stopped going to school (19-year-olds have much better things to do on a nice April day, right?). Yesterday I had a lesson with three students, we started chatting and I heard a very nice thing from one of them. She said that with me it's impossible to say whether I personally like a given student or not, because I treat everyone the same. And I was happy to hear that because I strive to be as objective as possible.

[Kellais]

That is indeed a nice compliment, Alia. Well done!
I try to be impartial...but sometimes it is hard. Not that i have an inclination for favourites...but non-favourites sometimes Some students just make it hard to be impartial with them...and we teachers are also only human, after all

[Royce]

I tend to think that motivation is key. I was never motivated in school as a kid, and as we all know that is not the kids fault. In retrospect I can say that none of my teachers even asked me once what I really liked to do.

I do not really know much about how this system works, but it seems like the main point is just to "get people through it", and to me that is not "education" at all. You "learn" ,then forget, and suddenly you are finished. It is like you are sucked in and spat out.

I went to a psychologist many years ago and I had a very weird experience. The guy was way too young! He could not help me at all, because he had no real experience with the issues I had. I guess he had top notch grades and all, but that did not matter at all.

I think the same goes for many teachers. It is just a paycheck. They do not really care about real education, no passion for the subjects they are supposed to be experts on. So the students become like them(great imitators those kids!). No passion, no motivation, but I got to "get through" to get a job.

In the end the whole culture suffers. An entire culture with no passion, no motivation(except paycheck motivation). If you do not have paycheck motivation, you are a "loser", and the coin suddenly flips upside down all of a sudden. The "loser" has no motivation, no passion to "contribute" to this delightful culture of wants and needs. We frown upon those folks. Can it be that they have passion that is not based on money?.

To close this highly biased rant, I will suggest that a curriculum with much/heaps/mountains of more choice, and no grading at all could help. Really get down to business to take each kid under your wing and make a sincere effort to really listen to what he/she says. To that we need teachers with lots of motivation, passion for the art of teaching and educating, not just people having a job to get payed. So there are definitely some major structural issues that needs to be addressed.

Before you attack me with a chainsaw, I will once again emphasize that most of this rant is personal. Do not take it any other way