[Wic]

Is he...going to sacrifice all who have touched Seswatha's Heart?

Would Serwe know?

[Wilshire]

"he" is Kellhus?

If Kellhus is really doing something to further the Inchoroi cause, then I think the sacrificing of all those connected to Seswatha in any way will probably be likely. I doubt Serwe knows.

[The Sharmat]

If Kellhus is the Harbinger of the Second Apocalypse then the Great Ordeal has to fail or the prophecy is self-negating.

[Wilshire]

Thats actually how I read it.

Consider this is the "Second Apocalypse" which in itself is self-negating. You can't have the end of the world twice .... But if you can have a 2nd apocalypse, then that implies that "the end of the world" already happened once, is happening again, and can happen a 3rd time, and on and on.

Because of this, I read it more along the lines of "the world will come to a place where it may end again, when an Anasurimbor returns", and further that "it will only end if, and only if, Seswatha truly dies".

If you read it otherwise, more like "If A then B", then: an Anasurimbor will return, Seswatha will die, the end of the world happens.

Another consideration is that the Celmomian prophecy is entirely false. The Consult mention that they know something of true and false ...



Just thought of the fact that there is no out for Seswatha in the Prophecy. No mention of the world surviving if the Inchoroi are wiped out, etc., just that when Seswatha dies, all is lost. Again, the end has little to do with anyone, even the Consult and Anasurimbor, than it does with Seswatha. Doomed to live forever lest the world ends.

[anasurimbor moenghus]

It strikes me as entirely unlikely that the prophecies would have accidentally lined up with Kellhus' arrival.  Leaving Moenghus' expulsion or flight unexplained is also absurd - they are Dunyain, everything is deliberate.  More likely the prophecies either were uttered as part of the necessary conditions of creating a being like Kellhus or genuine prophecy.  Either way the prophecy prepared the way for the Great Ordeal.

[Wilshire]

It strikes me as entirely unlikely that the prophecies would have accidentally lined up with Kellhus' arrival. 

It didn't, so I'd agree

Leaving Moenghus' expulsion or flight unexplained is also absurd - they are Dunyain, everything is deliberate. 

I don't think its likely the Dunyain even knew of the Celmomian prophecy. After all, every dunyain (non-super-human at this point btw) was wandering around the wasted north trying to find some haven against the Apocalypse. The news of said prophecy would have had enormous difficulty reaching them.

Also noteworthy that it probably was never considered a prophesy until much later, and even then probably only by the Mandate (which no one believed anyway).

More likely the prophecies either were uttered as part of the necessary conditions of creating a being like Kellhus or genuine prophecy.

Kellhus was created by the Dunyain, and I would give them full credit for the Kellhus that existed before he left Ishual.

Either way the prophecy prepared the way for the Great Ordeal.

This. Part of the prophesy has already been fulfilled, specifically, the part about an Anasurimbor. We know this part is true, and like I've said before, its largely irrelevant which specific Anasurimbor it was supposed to be pointing to.... Unless its specifically for an Anasurimbor that has yet to be introduced into the story, which I find extremely unlikely. The series is called The Second Apocalypse for a reason.

[Simas Polchias]

You can't have the end of the world twice ....

In fact, you can! I have a lil theory about gods' blindness to all things consulty & inchoroiy.

As out-of-time beings, gods are witnessing all various scenarios of apocalypses ever possible (different and/or multiple No-God's successful promenades are among them). That's a hell of a bright sun to leave their eyes with light spots inside, that's a causality blindnspots places on their perception like a scar on a tissue. So, if someone or something is capable of destroying the world even with a chance close to zero, he or it is retroactively invisible to the gods' sight.

Like, one crafty Sil, who shut the world even without landing on promised ground, he grants invisibility to thousands of these Sils, who were slain helplessly by Cinmoi's hand, died through crude grafting, were eaten alive by crazied mothership or never became a passengers of one.

PS And that's where the catchprase of our cute black whirlwind could have come from. What do they see? Nothing. Unceasing ends. Meta-apocalypse.

[Wilshire]

Meta-apocalypse.

Very nice. I approve

One thing that remains, what of Ajokli?

[Garet Jax]

Ajokli is just that...


A joke.

[Simas Polchias]

One thing that remains, what of Ajokli?

Sleepy me, so time to be as brief and mysterious as pobbisle.

Ajokli is...

... the shadow under the Whirlwind.
... the Black-Bad Thief. An inversed WLW as literally, as you need him to be.
... the remains of primary personality there, where world/outside are neocortex/limbic/reptilian brains, plagued by dissociative identity disorder and secondary personalities (the hundred gods).

Hope this helps.

[The Sharmat]

Ajokli is also apparently the only God that doesn't give the slightest shit about human opinions, if some of what the White Luck Warrior and the unnamed Narindari said is true. That seems like it should be significant somehow.

[mrganondorf]

awesome interpretation The Sharmat!  you got me thinking about a couple of possibilities:

it's possible that Kellhus isn't even an Anasurimbor!  the two people that say he is are Mek and Akka.  Kellhus tells Mek that he is an Anasurimbor and Mek's addled brain may just reason "oh, here is a white guy with blonde hair and blue eyes and he says he's an Anasurimbor, i guess he is--it would be memorable if he is!"  Akka thinks that Kellhus is an Anasurimbor because of the dreams--what lies has Seswatha put in the minds of the Mandate???

which brings me to--what if there never was a Celmomian prophecy?  Ses just made it up in order to create the impression of a fulfilled prophecy later--he was overseeing the Dunyain project too

[Wilshire]

By blood, pretty much all the Dunyain are related, and we have no idea how or why they bother tracking surnames. Maybe they just give surnames to the ones that go into the world, and "Anasurimbor" is just the only one that they know of that might hold some clout to make things easier for them. The bastard son was still a son of the most powerful human dynasty from yesteryear, and they probably just figure that if any name at all, that one may still have some power.

I guess if there is some "real" Anasurimbor that we are waiting for, and its neither Moenghus or Kellhus because they are not, by some miracle, related to Celmomas, than its possible that the prophesy has not been fulfilled, that there is not yet a Harbinger... Still seems extremely convoluted and unlikely.

[Simas Polchias]

I guess if there is some "real" Anasurimbor that we are waiting for, and its neither Moenghus or Kellhus because they are not, by some miracle, related to Celmomas, than its possible that the prophesy has not been fulfilled, that there is not yet a Harbinger... Still seems extremely convoluted and unlikely.

Actually, I would like  to have another Tolkien moment here, but in Bakker-esque cruel way:

1) Someone from these human kennels of the Arc, which were once filled only by noble Anasurimbor captives or, to make things even worse, only by

(click to show/hide)

children of that specific Anasurimbor hero-prince

2) Mekeretrig who elrondly presents him a repaired Heron spear.
3) A strong desire to restore his ancient dynasty in the north.
4) A mission to save all ensouled beings from damnation.

So, to say it briefly. I want the Inversed Aragorn. :3

Someone with unnatural lifespan and skills.
Someone to dwarf "Boromir"-Kellhus.
Someone to fill that gap left after Cnaiur.

Badass. Consult. General.