[TGO SPOILERS] Cnaiur

  • 38 Replies
  • 15699 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

mrganondorf

  • *
  • The Mouth of Bakker Fans
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Nurse Leweth
  • Posts: 2002
  • PSUKHE ALL THE THINGS!
    • View Profile
    • R. Scott Bakker Fans (on Twitter)
« on: May 12, 2016, 04:41:56 pm »
For my part this settles it--Bakker is a liar.  Throw out all the interviews!  We'll never know when he's fucking with us until it's too late.  Really, I like the Unreliable narrator Author.  It's fun, keeps me on my toes.

EDIT: Btw, something is up with Cnaiur.  He's like 70 and hale as ever.  Also, when Mimara sees him, he is something like a "Prince of Hell."  That got me thinking.  Damnation isn't really the problem per se.  If you are damned but will live on like a Ciphrang or some kind of Infernal Nobility, then you are basically not damned.

The real problem is if you are both damned and subject to another as food or a toy for their cruel pleasure.  Cnaiur is so freaking devout!  He's lived the most holy life (worshiping with war) and will therefore find his way into the spirit realm as a privileged individual.

Blackstone

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • Posts: 241
  • Kellhus Apologist
    • View Profile
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2016, 07:17:28 pm »
Yeah. I'm a little chapped by that.
Honor the Niom? Niom is my middle name.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2016, 02:51:52 pm »
Nah, that shit was awesome!

Also, as I mentioned to Blackstone last night this was Bakker's last word on the subject in Author Q&A at ZTS, within a handful of posts of when he disappeared from the internet:

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2006
I was afraid of this question, simply because I knew that anyone who asked would likely hate my answer. All I can say is that I thought long and hard about that ending, and had dozens of discussions about it with those who read the first draft. As it stands, I think it's perfect, it's the way Cnaiur's arc simply has to end. Beyond that...

I fucking love how Kosoter under the Eye, especially, but everything under the Eye, was just a build up to Cnaiur under the Eye! The Swazond was smoking when viewed by the Eye!

Also, as I mentioned to Blackstone last night, I find it very interesting that Cnaiur's commitment to Golgotterath is volatile and seemingly depended on his being involved in the sack of Ishual - which the Consult withheld from him!

EDIT: Btw, something is up with Cnaiur.  He's like 70 and hale as ever.

Consult's got all the good drugs, baby.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2891
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2016, 02:55:32 pm »
Consult's got all the good drugs, baby.

Well, it's not like he has a Womb...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Blackstone

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • Posts: 241
  • Kellhus Apologist
    • View Profile
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2016, 03:03:55 pm »
Yeah, I've gotten over being chapped. Cnaiur is my favorite character from any book ever, and it's gonna be awesome to see him on the pages of TUC.

I agree, it does seem like his loyalty to the Consult isn't a sure thing. Perhaps he'll ride against Golgotterath and redeem the People. When they went into his yaksh and Mimara kept looking at all the things hanging on the wall, I kept thinking we would see the Heron Spear.
Honor the Niom? Niom is my middle name.

Somnambulist

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Incontinent Water-bearer
  • Posts: 790
    • View Profile
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2016, 04:03:34 pm »
Regarding Cnaiur's relative strength and health at his age.  Taking a deep breath...

If belief is all in Earwa, which seems to be true to some extent, anyway, then the Scylvendi belief that swazond carry the momentum of the lives that the bearer has ended, and Cnaiur has more swazond than any other Scylvendi, then maybe those lives are enervating him beyond what would normally be possible, cuz he's an avalanche of souls.

(sucking in air)
No whistling on the slog!

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2891
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2016, 04:08:00 pm »
Or perhaps there really was something to Moe telling him that he needed CnaiĆ¼r's strength...

I would more likely be betting on the Consult slipping him a Womb-Plague mickey though...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Blackstone

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • Posts: 241
  • Kellhus Apologist
    • View Profile
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2016, 04:11:20 pm »
Regarding Cnaiur's relative strength and health at his age.  Taking a deep breath...

If belief is all in Earwa, which seems to be true to some extent, anyway, then the Scylvendi belief that swazond carry the momentum of the lives that the bearer has ended, and Cnaiur has more swazond than any other Scylvendi, then maybe those lives are enervating him beyond what would normally be possible, cuz he's an avalanche of souls.

(sucking in air)

This is interesting. Not sure I agree, but as Madness said, the swazond were smoking in the Eye's gaze.

Edit - Does belief make real in Earwa? Saubon believed he was saved but was, in fact, damned.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 04:41:57 pm by Blackstone »
Honor the Niom? Niom is my middle name.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5931
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2016, 01:40:53 pm »
Cnaiur, how your return dishartens me.

For me, it seemed like fan services. Lots of people love Cnaiur, and didn't appreciate his 'death' and his 'story arc being finished' - which btw that was from some of the lasts threads in ZTS (according to Madness).

If he's got more than a cameo in the next book, I'll reneg. Otherwise, Mimara could have gazed upon any Scylvendi and see the damnation of their race, etc. etc. No real reason to have Cnaiur around for just that one particular scene.

He raises a great point. He outwitted a Dunyain where not a single other person has. If anyone could wield the Consult, it would be him.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2016, 03:02:09 pm »
Regarding Cnaiur's relative strength and health at his age.  Taking a deep breath...

If belief is all in Earwa, which seems to be true to some extent, anyway, then the Scylvendi belief that swazond carry the momentum of the lives that the bearer has ended, and Cnaiur has more swazond than any other Scylvendi, then maybe those lives are enervating him beyond what would normally be possible, cuz he's an avalanche of souls.

(sucking in air)

Very interesting. Also, just had the thought that Cnaiur gave Serwe a ritual Swazond...

As I mentioned to Wilshire last night - I don't buy that the return of Cnaiur is a fan service. Bakker's forethought regarding The Second Apocalypse, its characters and plot arcs, inspire me to have faith that he isn't doing anything "for the fans," that he is cleaving the original narrative conception as much as possible.

Also, as mentioned last night: Cnaiur isn't just any Scylvendi, he's what Inrilatas aspired to be - Cnaiur is the Most Damned Soul. Whatever that means, on top of the Scylvendi Swazond smoking in the sight of the Eye...
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 03:16:13 pm by Madness »
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Blackstone

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • Posts: 241
  • Kellhus Apologist
    • View Profile
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2016, 11:31:01 pm »
I suppose this is the place to bring this up. Just before reading the ARC, I was pondering what the Scylvendi did with their Few, I mean surely, past me figured, they have the Few. Then lo and behold, we get one in the ARC. Does anyone else suppose these are perhaps the memorialists? Or is this an entirely different thing?
Honor the Niom? Niom is my middle name.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5931
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2016, 11:41:56 pm »
They probably hunt down chorae after battles. Otherwise, I dont think they have a School - I don't think there is Scylvendi magic.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Blackstone

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • Posts: 241
  • Kellhus Apologist
    • View Profile
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2016, 11:54:56 pm »
They probably hunt down chorae after battles. Otherwise, I dont think they have a School - I don't think there is Scylvendi magic.
No no. I am not saying that the Scylvendi Few actually wield magic. I figure they are something akin to the College of Luthymae (sp).
Honor the Niom? Niom is my middle name.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2016, 11:49:48 pm »
Scylvendi magi?:

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005
Though the capacity to work sorcery is innate, it's actual use requires much training and education - something which favours literate cultures. Though its possible for preliterate peoples to practice sorcery (sorcerers hailing from oral traditions are called Shamans), the Scylvendi have such a narrow notion of what constitutes 'honourable practice,' that the few Few that are born among them all become herdsmen and warriors. They think warring with words is womanish.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5931
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2016, 12:19:48 am »
Here we are, 11 years later. Same questions, different people.
One of the other conditions of possibility.