[profgrape]

REVELATIONS! More than I ever would have expected from a chapter excerpt. I feel like we could spend a year dissecting it (if we had to).

On profgrape's #3, if the purpose of souls are to be conceptually shredded and consumed by the gods/demons (not sure how the god-of-gods fits), then what creates them? If that's the end, what is the start? And what, presumably, does that have to do with Yatwer?

I was kind of blown away by how the Esmi section drew me in, the writing was phenomenal. That rapid scattered fire of memories, delusions, perspectives and fears in full panic.

I agree with profgrape that the 'head on a pole' is Kell's solid, Worldly self...at least somewhat. It's a strange image, but I do think the pole implies some sort of rigidity, and that it is behind him is some kind of dissociation. The passage suggests that 1. the head 'cannot be moved', and 2. it is reason to 'fear not damnation'.

I wonder if this has something to do with how Kell apparently sees the empire and TTT nearly indistinguishable from his own self.

Next thought - what the hell is up with Dunyain breeding methods!? There's surely something more than just some goofy ritualistic nonsense.

The introduction of that behavioral oddity, and as merchant said, all the mention of sons, makes me wonder...

Who is the Dunyain...character that Pat said is introduced?

Another wrinkle on Dunyain breeding:

They called it the Tracery, the rite that determined who among them would sire children and so sculpt the future of their terrible race.

The "terrible race" part really caught my eye. The fact that Kellhus appears to be casting judgment on the Dunyain *and* refers to them as a "race" rather than an "order" or "sect".

Now, it could be that "terrible race" refers to Men. But I don't think so.

[MSJ]

They called it the Tracery, the rite that determined who among them would sire children and so sculpt the future of their terrible race.

The "terrible race" part really caught my eye. The fact that Kellhus appears to be casting judgment on the Dunyain *and* refers to them as a "race" rather than an "order" or "sect".

Now, it could be that "terrible race" refers to Men. But I don't think so.

Another theory that kinda gets thrown overboard would be the Axlotl tanks, no? It says in that quote specifically, "sire". You wouldn't think they just get milked and no hanky panky, would ya? And the "seeds" bit from Akka's dream with Celmommas would definitely be talking about his line, and not a sperm bank. Awesome, a few ridiculous theories we can put to bed, I would think.

[profgrape]

They called it the Tracery, the rite that determined who among them would sire children and so sculpt the future of their terrible race.

The "terrible race" part really caught my eye. The fact that Kellhus appears to be casting judgment on the Dunyain *and* refers to them as a "race" rather than an "order" or "sect".

Now, it could be that "terrible race" refers to Men. But I don't think so.

Another theory that kinda gets thrown overboard would be the Axlotl tanks, no? It says in that quote specifically, "sire". You wouldn't think they just get milked and no hanky panky, would ya? And the "seeds" bit from Akka's dream with Celmommas would definitely be talking about his line, and not a sperm bank. Awesome, a few ridiculous theories we can put to bed, I would think.

Not to awaken a ridiculous theory, MSJ, but "sire" doesn't necessarily mean making babies the old-fasioned way.  Thankfully, however, it does effectively close up the sperm bank theory.  I hope.

[themerchant]

"He is here ... with you ... not so much inside me as speaking with your voice."

This is a strange line as well, it almost seems like they are talking about 2 people. Kellhus says his kids had two souls one that watches.

[profgrape]

Yeah, that one kind of blew my mind.  And got me wondering whether we're seeing Kellhus' perspective or the NG's perspective...

[Wic]

"He is here ... with you ... not so much inside me as speaking with your voice."

This is a strange line as well, it almost seems like they are talking about 2 people. Kellhus says his kids had two souls one that watches.

Reminded me of Kell's conversation with Akka about 'how can we both be here?' and then mimics Akka's response as he responds (though I still consider that second part little more than a Dunyain parlor trick). The concepts of self, here, there, and even time seem to have a new sort of meaning in the Outside.

[Tyrin]

1. Kellhus' recollection of the Outside seems to confirm Meppa's claims regarding the Gods, that they are nothing more than demons. 

If we tend to believe that Aurang was more or less telling the truth when he spoke with Kellhus during TTT, then Aurang also already confirmed as much. I imagine the Consult knows even more about the true nature of the Outside than Kellhus since their whole ethos revolves around breaking that connection.

Welcome to the forum!

Thanks! After a few weeks of lurking around reading various threads I just couldn't take it anymore and had to join the fun!

[Madness]

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Tyrin .

[H]

1. Kellhus' recollection of the Outside seems to confirm Meppa's claims regarding the Gods, that they are nothing more than demons. 

If we tend to believe that Aurang was more or less telling the truth when he spoke with Kellhus during TTT, then Aurang also already confirmed as much. I imagine the Consult knows even more about the true nature of the Outside than Kellhus since their whole ethos revolves around breaking that connection.

Aurang is love, Aurang is life.

Welcome to the board.  I've speculated at times before that Aurang isn't a liar he's just a braggart, so I have basically always agreed with you.

It's one of the reasons why I enjoy his appearances so much, he doesn't dance around anything, he calls it as he sees it (if you dig, you can probably see some of my speculation on why).  That doesn't mean he is always right, per se, but he is nothing if not...direct.

[Darzin]

I don't think damnation is the only thing which happens in the outside I think it's just once side of the "harvest" some the gods reward some the gods punish.

He comes to the shore that is here, always here, gazes without sight across waters that are fire, and sees the Sons swimming, lolling and bloated and bestial, raising babes as wineskins, and drinking deep their shrieks.

He has always hidden, always watched, where Other Sons, recline, drinking from bowls that are skies, savoring the moaning broth of the Countless, bloating for the sake of bloat, slaking hungers like chasms, pits that eternity had rendered Holy ...

These seem to be both the outside, one has fire, one has sky,one has shrieks, one has moaning, and I would hazard to guess that in one the Sons feed off pleasure and in the other they feed off pain. How one gets sorted between one or the other I would guess is the difference between salvation and damnation, the world exists to give souls experience and depending on the experience the soul is used for pleasure or pain.

It's interesting to me that this section more or less proves the Cishaurim right, the gods are demons who just want to snack on souls. Given that Meppa seems to be able to see this I wonder what the Cishaurim method of avoiding this is? I also wonder if, seeing as  Kellhus is warring against the gods the Fanim invasion was not merely a consequence of leaving but a feature after all if you want to fight the gods it is the Fanim who would be  your natural allies not the Intrithi, we can see this already with the cults rising up.

[Wic]

It does leave a lot of open questions about the Cishaurim relationship with the Outside. I'm particularly thinking about how Ciphrang can grab onto their Water and pull their souls out of their bodies. What is the depth of their connection to their sorcery/thaumaturgy? Maybe the Solitary God is outside the normal, er, Outside scheme.

[profgrape]

Meta-question of the day: if the AA is concludes with someone (Kellhus, Mimara, etc) unifying the Gods and reawakening the God of Gods, where does that leave TSTSNBN? 

I'm thinking of what Madness (whom I don't believe is as much of a lying liar as he claims) said about how everything that we've read up to this point is just a prologue to the story that RSB wants to tell -- in a sense, what The Silmarillion is compared with The Hobbit or TLOTR.

If TGO/TUC builds to the unification/reawakening, how could that possibly be more interesting that what we've already gotten? 

[Tyrin]

I've speculated at times before that Aurang isn't a liar he's just a braggart, so I have basically always agreed with you.

I've gotten the same impression of Aurang in every appearance he's made (just look at how even Shae is shocked by Aurang's directness with Titirga).

After re-reading the excerpt and going back and having a look at TTT, I see that: 1) Kellhus' description of damnation to Proyas lines up exactly with what Aurang-as-Esmi already said ("We were born for damnation's sake") and 2)What Kellhus experiences in the Outside also lines up with Aurang's earlier statements ("Love is the Way... and yet these little demons you call Gods decree otherwise? Dole out their rewards in proportion to our suffering?").

So yes, Aurang is love, Aurang is life. 


(On a somewhat unrelated note, there's something in that conversation between Kellhus and Aurang that always really caused me headaches: Aurang says "So long as there are men, there are crimes."  You may recognize this statement as being the exact one uttered by the Anasurimbor to the Dunyain in the prologue of TDTCB, to which the Dunyain responds: "Only so long as men are deceived." Recall that Aurang is called "the Angel of Deceit". I don't really know where I'm going with this but I think there's an Illuminati plot in there somewhere.)

[Darzin]

That also fits with the quote from the witness of Fane, when making the world The God says "let there be deceit let there be desire,"

Also random bit of speculation I wonder if Cishaurim water washes the sin from you? I know the mark is not sin but it mentions in the false sun how Titirga's mark is strange and faded. So I wonder if the Cishaurim simply are not interesting to the agencies of the outside because they are "washed" by the water they bear. 

[profgrape]

That also fits with the quote from the witness of Fane, when making the world The God says "let there be deceit let there be desire,"

Also random bit of speculation I wonder if Cishaurim water washes the sin from you? I know the mark is not sin but it mentions in the false sun how Titirga's mark is strange and faded. So I wonder if the Cishaurim simply are not interesting to the agencies of the outside because they are "washed" by the water they bear. 

It could be.  Just the name, "the Water", implies cleansing properties.  This assumes, of course, that the Cishaurim aren't damned like everyone else...