[H]

I really doubt Kellhus has risked anything.

Chances are everything is preordained, Kellhus can't really fail, so long as he listens to the Voice.  And we have no indication he has done anything besides listen.

Neither do I. My point was that Maithenet, as a Dunyain was able to read the love Kellhus bears his children and family. He thinks this clouds his judgement. I do not.

I'm on the fence about that, because I fail to see love toward any of them really.  Sure, it's stated by Maithenet, but where is it actually shown or demonstrated?

What love did he ever show for Theli, for example, considering what he allowed to happen to her in the end?  And not only that, what he allowed Inri to do to her before that?

To even connect with that, is it love to allow Inri to be chained up like that?  To live the sort of existence he had to?  And to subject Esmenet to seeing her son like that?

And that is just two of the kids.  What about Sammi?  Little Kel?  What love do we really see there?  And so on, and so on.  Are we to plausibly assume that Kellhus knew nothing of any of that?  Or did he chose to not know?

[MSJ]

I'm on the fence about that, because I fail to see love toward any of them really.  Sure, it's stated by Maithenet, but where is it actually shown or demonstrated?

What love did he ever show for Theli, for example, considering what he allowed to happen to her in the end?  And not only that, what he allowed Inri to do to her before that?

To even connect with that, is it love to allow Inri to be chained up like that?  To live the sort of existence he had to?  And to subject Esmenet to seeing her son like that?

And that is just two of the kids.  What about Sammi?  Little Kel?  What love do we really see there?  And so on, and so on.  Are we to plausibly assume that Kellhus knew nothing of any of that?  Or did he chose to not know?

Thelli, I fail to comprehend how he would know of how she would die. As I said, without Kelmommas, Kellhus is killed by the WLW.

Inri, he was not able to control, because he let his emotions utterly rule him. I think Kellhus would've actually killed him if not for Esme.

Serwa, he loves her and it is shown throughout her flashbacks. If anything he loves her most. She is as close to Kellhus as any of his kids and used her in the Niom because he knew she would succeed. From, Wert's history we already have one speculation confirmed.

(click to show/hide)

her song was a song of ruin, as I said. The time for "singing" had come to an end, as she said.

Kelmommas- a necessary evil, is all.

Kayutas and Moe- two of his generals and one is leading the Ordeal and the other will help get Serwa and Sorweel back to the Ordeal.

I fail to see that because he uses their capabilities that that means he doesn't love them. Harsh times calls for harsher measures.

[H]

Using them to their capabilities is indeed what he does with Serwa and Kayutas, possibly Moe, but the rest?  That doesn't seem really what he is doing.  Perhaps he did spare Inri out of love for Esmenet.  But what he lets happen under his nose to Sammi and Theli is pretty inexcusable, especially when you consider he is the pinnacle of the Dunyain.

I don't simply mean how he let Theli die.  That was probably out of his hands/in the hands of Momas and/or Yatwer.  But to allow Inri to sexually abuse her?  With Kellhus perceptual ability, there is absolutely no chance he didn't notice the profound effect it had on her and so would be able to figure out why it happened.  That is not love, even if in some twisted way it had to happen.  Theli was abused by both Kellhus and Inri, no matter how you slice it, and that is not love.  Not any way I can possibly understand it.

[MSJ]

Using them to their capabilities is indeed what he does with Serwa and Kayutas, possibly Moe, but the rest?  That doesn't seem really what he is doing.  Perhaps he did spare Inri out of love for Esmenet.  But what he lets happen under his nose to Sammi and Theli is pretty inexcusable, especially when you consider he is the pinnacle of the Dunyain.

I don't simply mean how he let Theli die.  That was probably out of his hands/in the hands of Momas and/or Yatwer.  But to allow Inri to sexually abuse her?  With Kellhus perceptual ability, there is absolutely no chance he didn't notice the profound effect it had on her and so would be able to figure out why it happened.  That is not love, even if in some twisted way it had to happen.  Theli was abused by both Kellhus and Inri, no matter how you slice it, and that is not love.  Not any way I can possibly understand it.

Valid points. But, I will not back down from my stance that Kellhuss is driven by emotion/love. Even if it is not recognisable to us. I've given many, many examples at to why I believe this. I think Maithenet seeing the love Kellhus bears his children is another notch in that belt, is all.

For example, lets just look at why the Thought come about. To save humanity from the No-God and to destroy the Consult. This in itself is enough to conclude that they care for humanity. Its certainly not to save the Dunyain's mission. From, "His heart would crash to ruin" to coming back to save the Empire and Esme there is plenty of evidence that this is the case. Kellhus is more for the simple reason that he feels emotions, cares for humanity.

[H]

Valid points. But, I will not back down from my stance that Kellhuss is driven by emotion/love. Even if it is not recognisable to us. I've given many, many examples at to why I believe this. I think Maithenet seeing the love Kellhus bears his children is another notch in that belt, is all.

For example, lets just look at why the Thought come about. To save humanity from the No-God and to destroy the Consult. This in itself is enough to conclude that they care for humanity. Its certainly not to save the Dunyain's mission. From, "His heart would crash to ruin" to coming back to save the Empire and Esme there is plenty of evidence that this is the case. Kellhus is more for the simple reason that he feels emotions, cares for humanity.

Back to our usual same circular "argument." 

While post-TGO I don't think there can be any question of if emotion, i.e. feelings, are somehow involved, I certainly have doubts about their extent and the extent to which they are driving the plan or simply part of the plan.

You know we can do this for days though, so we'll just have to RaFO (if TUC actually even answers this question).

[MSJ]

Valid points. But, I will not back down from my stance that Kellhuss is driven by emotion/love. Even if it is not recognisable to us. I've given many, many examples at to why I believe this. I think Maithenet seeing the love Kellhus bears his children is another notch in that belt, is all.

For example, lets just look at why the Thought come about. To save humanity from the No-God and to destroy the Consult. This in itself is enough to conclude that they care for humanity. Its certainly not to save the Dunyain's mission. From, "His heart would crash to ruin" to coming back to save the Empire and Esme there is plenty of evidence that this is the case. Kellhus is more for the simple reason that he feels emotions, cares for humanity.

Back to our usual same circular "argument." 

While post-TGO I don't think there can be any question of if emotion, i.e. feelings, are somehow involved, I certainly have doubts about their extent and the extent to which they are driving the plan or simply part of the plan.

You know we can do this for days though, so we'll just have to RaFO (if TUC actually even answers this question).

Semantics, yep, we agree. I do think it will be answered though.

[TaoHorror]

Friends! A gift for you ... I have the answer!

Kellhus "sees" the 2nd Apocalypse and a path through it, the TTT. His "love" of humanity allows him to take on the challenge to thread the needle of events to ensure humanity's success. All that has happened, with standard deviations ( some of what you two are going back and forth about could be "slight" deviations along the path ), are pavers. The orchestration of events to drive an ultimate outcome. His love is such that he is willing to "allow" sacrifices of his family to achieve, but does not enjoy the luxury to entertain the misery resulting from those losses as most of us do. What you perceive is a lack of love is actually the strength of prodigious ( can't think of a better term ) love - the love of all humanity, the love of our future, our potential. Refer to all of the tales of insight into human identity during the Holy War/march ... Cniur concluded it was all a manipulation to have his followers "fall in love" with him so they would follow his leadership - but its more than that, it's laying the groundwork to "assist" humans next "move" in evolution. We're "stuck" in pettiness, childishness - but that's not all we are, the hot hot hot human emotions that drives our insane actions/reactions/paranoia in a reality with so many unknowns, the perpetual bumping into each other playing for advantage has an air of strength and beauty to it as well - just requires a better awareness of that octane we call love so we can become more. The great irony of this mad story of extreme violence and depravity is our optimism of our potential. Bakker provides an external threat limiting us, but the message is we're actually limiting ourselves. It's the Inchoroi "inside" us that takes over when we're self-destructively violent or petty. It's the human in us that elevates, that loves.

So there you have it - the message of this great work - summed up nice and neat - on the one hand, Bakker tasks us as readers to not fall in love with our heroes, but at the same time, showing us what real love really is. The Dunyain mastered 1/2 of human potential ... Cniur mastered the other half. Together, logic and the blast furnace that is love, one providing the thrust with the other the direction, we will rise. And that ascension will be made on the back of horror, but not through conquering each other, but conquering ourselves collectively.

Unless I'm wrong. A more interesting question may be why does it matter to you/us if Kellhus "experiences" love? Does the answer to that effect the validation of his attempt to thwart the human extinction event?

[H]

Unless I'm wrong. A more interesting question may be why does it matter to you/us if Kellhus "experiences" love? Does the answer to that effect the validation of his attempt to thwart the human extinction event?

The question rises from asking, "what separates Kellhus from Moënghus?"

When Kellhus tells him, "I am more," what does that mean?

Does it really matter to me?  Not particularly.  All I ever really try to do to string together piece of a books in a way to explain what might be happening.  I never really say something must be, rather I try to rate the probability of things based off how much textual evidence there is.  If you ever really find me debating something, it is mostly just the relative probability of things.

It's rather irrelevant to me, in the long run, if Kellhus is doing things out of love, selfishness, or just for a ham sandwich.

[MSJ]

Unless I'm wrong. A more interesting question may be why does it matter to you/us if Kellhus "experiences" love? Does the answer to that effect the validation of his attempt to thwart the human extinction event?

The question rises from asking, "what separates Kellhus from Moënghus?"

When Kellhus tells him, "I am more," what does that mean?

Does it really matter to me?  Not particularly.  All I ever really try to do to string together piece of a books in a way to explain what might be happening.  I never really say something must be, rather I try to rate the probability of things based off how much textual evidence there is.  If you ever really find me debating something, it is mostly just the relative probability of things.

It's rather irrelevant to me, in the long run, if Kellhus is doing things out of love, selfishness, or just for a ham sandwich.

Same here. Doesn't really matter, just what I think the text leads us, or rather, me to. I've been wrong about things before and it truly has zero bearing on how i feel about the book. Its Bakker's story, not mine. As long as its done well, is all that matters.

[TaoHorror]

Ah, apologies - I unintendedly insulted the pursuit of understanding here in this forum, something I very much enjoy myself. I was trying to convey, do we need him "human" at all for us to "root" for him. I think the lack of POV from Kellhus is purposeful beyond the challenge of articulating such a mind in prose. If he does "save" us, but find out he's a corruption, does that water down the achievement? If he really feels nothing of the deaths and suffering of his children, can he still be a "hero"?

I don't see the jump from not feeling for his family but taking on the monumental effort to drag hordes of people through hellish landscape, subsisting on what amounts to shit, to save the human race - either he's a mad sadist with a flair for epic violent waste of time and lives or he gives a shit.

[Madness]

Your lengthy commune aside, I think there is a much clearer mistake in Wert's History TGO regarding Mimara outing Soma because of the Judging Eye. She's trained as all Anasurimbor children are trained to recognize Skin-Spies, not because of something special imbued by the Eye.

On (off?) topic, contextually, on three points:

- It would seem like Kellhus was so busy and Kelmomas escaped scrutiny at the right moments.
- Esmenet apparently never found out about Inrilatas abusing Theliopa, as per Kelmomas and Theliopa's conversation, and Kellhus did imprison Inrilatas for his crime (though perhaps spared his life out of love, for Esmenet or otherwise).
- Theliopa totally was used regarding usefulness potentia by Kellhus, she's Esmenet's Hitchhiker's Guide to Earwa: one of my favorite quotes from TGO, badly paraphrasing, is when the away team Exalt-General returns to Momemn and it takes "nearly everyone there to answer his questions, absent Theli."

[H]

- Theliopa totally was used regarding usefulness potentia by Kellhus, she's Esmenet's Hitchhiker's Guide to Earwa: one of my favorite quotes from TGO, badly paraphrasing, is when the away team Exalt-General returns to Momemn and it takes "nearly everyone there to answer his questions, absent Theli."

That is kind of my point though, that Kellhus' relationship with the children is less a father to a child, than it is a man to his tools.

[TaoHorror]

I think the word below in red should be now ... not too far into A History of Eärwa Part 3: The Apocalypse

Seswatha took this knowledge to his old friend, who know ruled as Anasûrimbor

[Werthead]

Thanks, that's been amended in the PDF version.

I've sent a copy to Scott to see if there's any egregious errors he wants to pull out or isn't happy with, but if not I'll release that into the wild in a week or two.

[Madness]

I'm really excited for this. Thanks, Wert. It makes a different in efforts to promote the series.