[MSJ]

Lol - I can't imagine we were all laughing at you, MSJ .

Maybe it just felt that way to me, lol.

[Madness]

Lol - well, it's likely that we might have been laughing about Kellhus having feelings (and how wrong we were, no doubt). But no ill will meant I'm sure .

[mrganondorf]

@ H - Lol, your phrasing "untrained Dunyain loose in the world" wow, that could be a real significant thing


@ MSJ - Cheers to you--I think Kellhus cares too! 


A couple of things about Crab-Kid-- he's the result of a sranc-only diet from childhood i suppose; he acts pretty 'normal' but it might be signficant in TUC that this kid has to have a really fucked up psychology: growing up in the dark constantly chased by rapist-monsters.

I know it doesn't say so, but I just had a strong impression that Crab-Kid was headed south to Momemn.  I guess he could be off to anywhere though, even back to Ishual or over to Ishterebinth or what about Atrithau/Sakarpus.

[Madness]

A couple of things about Crab-Kid-- he's the result of a sranc-only diet from childhood i suppose; he acts pretty 'normal' but it might be signficant in TUC that this kid has to have a really fucked up psychology: growing up in the dark constantly chased by rapist-monsters.

The Survivor ruminates regarding "risking the surface only when their food stores ran out" or some such. Not the Meat .

I know it doesn't say so, but I just had a strong impression that Crab-Kid was headed south to Momemn.  I guess he could be off to anywhere though, even back to Ishual or over to Ishterebinth or what about Atrithau/Sakarpus.

Well, I'd imagine the Boy has the strongest attachment to Mimara at this point - the Survivor yielded to her, told the Boy everything he taught him was a lie, and Mimara saved the Boy's life by doing one of my absolute favorite small things in the series, the Dunyain Alley-Oop (calling back to when Cnaiur and Kellhus meet the Scylvendi returning from worship and Cnaiur uses the Dunyain's ability to read his face to tell him to prepare for combat).

And Achamian at least speaks the Boy's language.

[mrganondorf]

Hmm, Madness, I'm fascinated by what you say.  Crab-Kid is perhaps not damned like Koringhus, so he has a chance to make use of Koringhus' insights in a Dunyain way.  Mimara might raise him up right (by Yatwer or something).  A Dunyain that is willfully subservient to the gods (and not dead) is fascinating. 

[MSJ]

Hmm, Madness, I'm fascinated by what you say.  Crab-Kid is perhaps not damned like Koringhus, so he has a chance to make use of Koringhus' insights in a Dunyain way.  Mimara might raise him up right (by Yatwer or something).  A Dunyain that is willfully subservient to the gods (and not dead) is fascinating.

MG,  just a question, not a argument, what makes you think that Mim is Yatwer mortal soul?  I've taking to her being attached to the God/Absolute what have you. I think Yatwers plans rest in Sorwel at this juncture and maybe Zsoronga will play a role.

[Madness]

Hmm, Madness, I'm fascinated by what you say.  Crab-Kid is perhaps not damned like Koringhus, so he has a chance to make use of Koringhus' insights in a Dunyain way.  Mimara might raise him up right (by Yatwer or something).  A Dunyain that is willfully subservient to the gods (and not dead) is fascinating. 

Well, I was just addressing the thought that the Boy would go anywhere else besides following Mimara and Achamian.

[mrganondorf]

Hmm, Madness, I'm fascinated by what you say.  Crab-Kid is perhaps not damned like Koringhus, so he has a chance to make use of Koringhus' insights in a Dunyain way.  Mimara might raise him up right (by Yatwer or something).  A Dunyain that is willfully subservient to the gods (and not dead) is fascinating.

MG,  just a question, not a argument, what makes you think that Mim is Yatwer mortal soul?  I've taking to her being attached to the God/Absolute what have you. I think Yatwers plans rest in Sorwel at this juncture and maybe Zsoronga will play a role.

Oh yeah, I think Scott is keeping it vague - Mimara claims to be seeing with the absolute (which might be identical to Yatwer) but...

-Woman
-Preggers
-Dunyain are damned because they make 'tools' of everything, something Yatwer hates
-In the Fathering, muses specifically on the duties of women
-Mimara prays to Yatwer (in Cil-aujus?)
-Zero-God is emptiness like void like womb like Khora
-Somewhere when Akka and Mimara first, there is a face drawn in the earth by one of the slave kids, earth-->mom

I'm not convinced that there really is any absolute.  It could be one of the revelations of TUC that Mimara's eye sees what is holy and damned only from one god's pov, so Kellhus will be damned to Yatwer but holy to Gilgaol or something.

The gods interact in so many ways in Earwa that using a pregnancy as a mechanism can't be insignificant.  Psatma isn't pregnant and 'sees' quite a lot.

I'm also not real convinced that Yatwer is only using 2 special agents--I'm betting she could make Sorweel say whatever to the nonmen.  If they or Sorweel or whoever buy that Yatwer has only 2 special secret agents, then they will be blind/ignorant to the others (a Bakker fav theme).

It's not at all conclusive!  Could be wrong!  I just don't know what Moe Sr and the Psukhe-Dunyain have been up to for all these years in Golgotterath

[The Sharmat]

Is the only reason the boy is defective his emotional range? Koringhus says he can scarcely even enter the pre-cursor to the probability trance. Lack of training, perhaps. But could also be he just lacks the wiring. Not from the Meat though, yeah. Apparently the assessors were pretty sure he was defective early on.

I could honestly also just see Koringhus never bothering to name him. Dunyain are weird.

[Madness]

Is the only reason the boy is defective his emotional range? Koringhus says he can scarcely even enter the pre-cursor to the probability trance. Lack of training, perhaps. But could also be he just lacks the wiring. Not from the Meat though, yeah. Apparently the assessors were pretty sure he was defective early on.

Well, there's historical time between those two ruminations. The Survivor grabs the Boy, as a babe, when the Dunyain try to escape into the Thousand Thousand Halls. The Survivor talks about risking light and sound so that the Boy developed properly. He fells a tree to count the years of the Boy's life.

The comment regarding the Assessors surely must refer to the Babe and the Survivor's condemnation of the Boy is skewed. There's also the question of whether the Boy was born with his crab-hand, which would certainly be deemed defective, or his fingers were lopped off by Sranc.

Despite failing the Dunyain's standard regarding babies born, it seems likely that the Boy will have far more natural Dunyain-ness than any of Kellhus' worldborn children.

[sohorat]

I suspect that the boy's hand is unrelated to his defect:

"Three fingers hand been lopped from his right hand, making a crab's claw of his right hand."  (Overlook pg.162).

That's Achamian's perspective, but it does suggest that The Boy lost those fingers. 

In fact, I think that The Boy being "defective" may instead be part of a generational arc in the Anasurimbor germline - just as Moeghus thought Kellhus "broken" but Kellhus thought himself "more", a lack of dispassion may be creeping back in the line of Anasurimbor's sons, culminating in "the most blessed fraction."  In Koringhus's case, his betrayal of The Mission in favor of his son was literally his saving grace in the eyes of The Eye.

Koringhus's own narrative arc may be intended to demonstrate that precisely what makes The Boy "defective" as judged by the Dunyain reflects the fundamental defect in Dunyain philosophy - what blinds them to the "sideways step" to escape the linear chain of The Logos.

[The Sharmat]

Despite failing the Dunyain's standard regarding babies born, it seems likely that the Boy will have far more natural Dunyain-ness than any of Kellhus' worldborn children.

I'd imagine so, yes. The Dunyain seem to have had tremendously high standards. Given the whale-mothers revelation, that probably counter-acts what should otherwise be a very high birth rate.

In Koringhus's case, his betrayal of The Mission in favor of his son was literally his saving grace in the eyes of The Eye.

Or in the eyes of Mimara, if certain ideas are correct. Though maybe ultimately that's saying the same thing.

[Madness]

...

I hope I'm not repeating myself, work is making me Erratic, but welcome to the Second Apocalypse, sohorat.

[Francis Buck]

I suspect that the boy's hand is unrelated to his defect:

"Three fingers hand been lopped from his right hand, making a crab's claw of his right hand."  (Overlook pg.162).

That's Achamian's perspective, but it does suggest that The Boy lost those fingers. 

In fact, I think that The Boy being "defective" may instead be part of a generational arc in the Anasurimbor germline - just as Moeghus thought Kellhus "broken" but Kellhus thought himself "more", a lack of dispassion may be creeping back in the line of Anasurimbor's sons, culminating in "the most blessed fraction."  In Koringhus's case, his betrayal of The Mission in favor of his son was literally his saving grace in the eyes of The Eye.

Koringhus's own narrative arc may be intended to demonstrate that precisely what makes The Boy "defective" as judged by the Dunyain reflects the fundamental defect in Dunyain philosophy - what blinds them to the "sideways step" to escape the linear chain of The Logos.

This is my interpretation almost 100%. The boy was so-called defective because, as Koringhus states, "he could not deny the interval between them". Which is also in line with Koringhus's recollection of immediately going to save his son when Ishual was attacked, without thought, without premeditation or Dunyain scheming or anything else. In other words, they were defective because they loved each other.

[mrganondorf]

Maybe the boy's not defective?  Not likely, but he's labelled as "defective" by someone with a bit of an insanity problem.