[Wilshire]

Hell yeah. Thanks for those posts! This is what I was hoping for . Hope I'll have more time to think and react to this stuff later. For now, Titan, I like what you're thinking - can't have an entire season of political intrigue drama and then a war story for 5 more books.

Maybe move Kellhus' discovery even farther, by Cnaiur. You still get the battle (can do Cnaiur-predictive battle scene flashes as he approaches, gives a background of the sranc and such). Bonus, cut out the beginning stuff that is just confusing for a 1 hour episode. Loosely combine Leweth with some Scylvendi caretaker.

Beef up Esmi and Serwe to be less helpless prostitute/slave. We have at least one example of a powerful women, the empress, right from the start. No need to have the long transition for Esmi.

Combine Momemn and Sumna. Basically the same place, and through TGO no real reason to have them separate. Simplifies things.



Overall, TDTCB needs to be simplified into fewer places, fewer factions, fewer characters, and reduce the build up to keep people interested. Backstory and such can be spliced in throughout

[The Sharmat]

The prologue sets the theme and tone while hooking the reader. It's not for an exposition dump.

[Titan]

The prologue sets the theme and tone while hooking the reader. It's not for an exposition dump.

What theme does it set? I'm honestly curious...

It does give a fair preview of the *tone* of the book, but I don't think it is a very effective hook. There's lots of accounts from here and elsewhere of people reading a significant part into TDTCB and giving up.

I was predisposed to liking this kind of stuff, but I wasn't hooked until Kellhus fought the non-man, and the book doesn't fire on all cylinders until Cnaiur finds Kellhus.

[The Sharmat]

What theme does it set? I'm honestly curious...

"Forgive me. There are no crimes when no one is left alive."

"We are Dunyain, child. Why would you fear us?"

"Because where there are men, there are crimes."

"There are only crimes when men are deceived"

TDTCB has a lot of problems and would need major re-editing, cuts, and changes. But I don't think he short Prologue is one of the issues.

[Callan S.]

"Forgive me. There are no crimes when no one is left alive."

Yeah, someone once pointed out that's like probably a reference to the whole 144,000 thing.

[Wilshire]

What theme does it set? I'm honestly curious...

"Forgive me. There are no crimes when no one is left alive."

"We are Dunyain, child. Why would you fear us?"

"Because where there are men, there are crimes."

"There are only crimes when men are deceived"

TDTCB has a lot of problems and would need major re-editing, cuts, and changes. But I don't think he short Prologue is one of the issues.

I could see it go either way. I'm assuming its important to impress that this is the SECOND apocalypse, and the Ishual is definitely an important piece of that. Plenty castles throughout the series, so that wouldnt be a waste. It might be difficult to shoehorn the information in the prologue into another point, since there is no direct tie to that time and place later on and inserting it elsewhere would be jarring.

OTOH, from a direct information standpoint, anything could be fit into one of Akka's dreams, or his conversations with the Mandate. Those themes, other than those explicitly dealing with the Dunyain, wouldn't be too hard to place. For the dunyain, there will be several points of flashbacks for Kellhus where that stuff could be added in.

I'm worried about the setting being too complex, but its difficult to remove that complexity without ruining the story.


Maybe for me, for this one scene, it boils down to: how important is the origin story of the Dunyain? There are few chances to fit that in other than the prologue, and with that you can add in the Anasurimbor, which is also really important imo. Without that, the moment of Akka hearing Kellhus' name for the first time is totally lost on the watcher.

I think I'm with TS for this one. The prologue is a good opportunity. I think it should stay in some form. Maybe allow for a bit more exposition on the consult or the first apocalypse to better hook the viewers?

[Wilshire]

H, some unsolicited comments :

Keeping in mind that a season would be at best 10x 60minute episodes, that seems like a large chunk of time, maybe 10-20 minutes of the first episode? Considering the amount of material that will likely have to be removed from TDTCB, I'm not sure it can afford to spend that much time there.

That said, that's some serious vision you've got there. I really liked that. There is so much source material to take from, especially for those of us that have been rattling this around in our heads for years and years.

I might say that the whole thing should be shot centered around the bastard-Anasurimbor. Following him as he muddles through, listening to adults half-heard conversations, peering into rooms finding the bodies, etc.

The bardic priest seems like someone I'd cut out. His interaction with the boy does set some precedent and tone, but I'm not sure thats a great place to begin the story.

Btw, I agree that the whole prologue chapter was one of my favorites for a long time my first read through. However, I think it takes up too much time for Kellhus/Dunyain that can be spliced in elsewhere. First apocalypse Ishual is a yes for me, present day Ishual, Kellhus in the woods, maybe even Leweth, I think could be cut without too much ill affect. Trying to triage is hard :/



I like the idea of starting Akka's story with his dream. Maybe even cutting from "2000 years later" into a dream sequence, and have Akka wake up after a few seconds. Maybe that's just more confusion and jarring, but that might help tie in what Achamian is dreaming of (bonus, then the watcher isn't sure if the prologue is real or not?) ... Though that could probably easily be explained with him waking up in Esmi's room "the dreams, Akka?" etc etc.

[H]

H, some unsolicited comments :

Keeping in mind that a season would be at best 10x 60minute episodes, that seems like a large chunk of time, maybe 10-20 minutes of the first episode? Considering the amount of material that will likely have to be removed from TDTCB, I'm not sure it can afford to spend that much time there.

Oh, I am sure it is 100% not film-able as written.  Nor as I had written it.  There is no way to fit it all in there, which is really a shame, because you end up with a derivative work, which is questionably as good.  You probably can't give everything the treatment it deserves (or requires).  It just my nature for nearly everything I do to be sprawling, for better or (usually) worse.  I know that isn't going to make a widely popular show though.

That said, that's some serious vision you've got there. I really liked that. There is so much source material to take from, especially for those of us that have been rattling this around in our heads for years and years.

I might say that the whole thing should be shot centered around the bastard-Anasurimbor. Following him as he muddles through, listening to adults half-heard conversations, peering into rooms finding the bodies, etc.

Indeed, had I spent more than 2 minutes thinking where I was going I think that would have been more clear from the get-go, rather than how I had it suddenly come in from his perspective half-way through (because that's when I realized it would make more sense).  I'm certainly not a competent screenwriter, I'm not even a competent post writer really, but I think it's a somewhat valid proof-of-concept (however unfeasible in length it is).

The bardic priest seems like someone I'd cut out. His interaction with the boy does set some precedent and tone, but I'm not sure thats a great place to begin the story.

I like keeping him in there, because it creates a dichotomy between the Dunyain who help the boy and he, who exploits him.

Btw, I agree that the whole prologue chapter was one of my favorites for a long time my first read through. However, I think it takes up too much time for Kellhus/Dunyain that can be spliced in elsewhere. First apocalypse Ishual is a yes for me, present day Ishual, Kellhus in the woods, maybe even Leweth, I think could be cut without too much ill affect. Trying to triage is hard :/

I would still think you need to show the dreams of Shimeh though, right?  Again, my vision of a film version is so sprawling considering pacing and running length is basically anathema to me.  This is why I am not even a competent writer.

I like the idea of starting Akka's story with his dream. Maybe even cutting from "2000 years later" into a dream sequence, and have Akka wake up after a few seconds. Maybe that's just more confusion and jarring, but that might help tie in what Achamian is dreaming of (bonus, then the watcher isn't sure if the prologue is real or not?) ... Though that could probably easily be explained with him waking up in Esmi's room "the dreams, Akka?" etc etc.

Yeah, that could be a good segue.  If you begin the show with Akka though, how do we know who Kellhus is?  Or why he is important?

I guess one method would be to cut the prologue all-together, start with Akka.  Only introduce Kellhus when he meets Cnaiur, and show his journey through flashbacks, but I feel like that would be a awful large infodump.  Plausible though.

In the book we know that the Anasûrimbor line is old.  We know it has been hiding for 2,000 years.  We know Kellhus is seemingly of that line.  This is why I like keeping the Prologue in. I have no doubt my vision is not reasonable though.

[Wilshire]

The info about Anasurimbor is a big loss. I'm weary of of too many flashbacks as well. To he successful it needs to be a complete story whithin the confines of the show, and thats just going to be tough 

[The Sharmat]

Esmenet and Serwë will be condensed into a single character and Kellhus will hang on the Circumfix alone if this show makes it that far. Calling it.

[MSJ]

Esmenet and Serwë will be condensed into a single character and Kellhus will hang on the Circumfix alone if this show makes it that far. Calling it.

I think you're right, but that would suck. Serwe is the CIPHER.

[Titan]

Esmenet and Serwë will be condensed into a single character and Kellhus will hang on the Circumfix alone if this show makes it that far. Calling it.

I think you're right, but that would suck. Serwe is the CIPHER.

Cipher for what, though? Even though Bakker has stated that she is important, here we are 5 books later, we still have no idea what she is the cipher for.

I think she could be merged with Esmenet, but I wouldn't personally do it. There are precious few female characters in PoN to begin with.

[Titan]

What theme does it set? I'm honestly curious...

"Forgive me. There are no crimes when no one is left alive."

"We are Dunyain, child. Why would you fear us?"

"Because where there are men, there are crimes."

"There are only crimes when men are deceived"

Thanks for that, you do have a point... And reading those lines after reading the books does make them seem important. But I never personally liked how those lines were said by the characters, it didn't make much sense in the actual prologue.

I agree with people that the first apocalypse needs to be emphasized in *some kind* of prologue. BUT... The book 1 prologue tells us really nothing about the first apocalypse, which is why it really doesn't work for me.

Instead of the existing prologue which characters that we will actually see again, I would take advantage of the visual medium and create something more spectacular for an opening/intro/prologue. How about this:
1. Quick explanation of Earwa shared by two races Non-men and Men. (Non-men very much shown as Prometheus alien style creatures)
2. Spectacular shot of the Inchoroi ship entering the atmosphere and impacting the ground, massive shockwave
3. Brief view of the battle of Mengedda, the No-God hovering over the battlefield - "WHAT AM I? WHAT DO YOU SEE?"
4. Another cut to Celmomas dying in Akka's arms, and the prophesy uttered... "An Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world"
5. Akka wakes up from his dream. Esmenet comforts him, and we get a quick explanation that this wasn't just a dream... This actually happened. And now seems like it will happen again.

I think something like this will definitely grab the attention of people... Those who just expect something like LOTR and GOT will go "wizards *AND* aliens!?!?!" 

All of these scenes will be expanded on in future episodes and Akka dreams. One could even do something interesting and start *every* episode with an Akka dream, gradually revealing more and more.

As far as the episode structure, I think one could do something very interesting, and do have character specific episodes - at least to begin with. Like this:
Episode 1. Kellhus - Start with him leaving Ishual on his long journey. Intercut with Moenghus dreams calling him to Shimeh. He finds Leweth, manipulates him, and then they are attacked by Sranc and the erratic. End on cliffhanger.
Episode 2. Akka - Our intro to the scholastic worlds, Esmenet, and Inrithi and Nansur politics. Akka meets with informant (in Monemn), he is sent to investigate Maithanet, recruits Inrau. Holy war is declared. End on Inrau being killed by the Consult.
Episode 3. Cnaiur - Cnaiur is getting ready for the battle of Kiyuth, but flashes back to him meeting Moenghus and that trauma, how he bacame chieftain. Battle starts (our first view of real sorcery power in battle), Cnaiur escapes by use of trinket (our first introduction to that) and heads home. But as he rides by his fathers grave, he finds... Kellhus. Cliffhanger. 
Episode 4. Kellhus & Cnaiur - Kellhus manipulates Cnaiur to ride with him to the three seas. They ride across the steppe and have many excellent conversations. They are attacked by other Scylvendi, and rescue Serwe.

And so on...

[MSJ]

Cipher for what, though? Even though Bakker has stated that she is important, here we are 5 books later, we still have no idea what she is the cipher for.

I think she could be merged with Esmenet, but I wouldn't personally do it. There are precious few female characters in PoN to begin with.

I basically said it because I'd hate to see her cut. Cipher, well, I think it goes into how she is so innocently and without regard, believes in Kellhus. Nothing can change Morality on Earwa, it's set in stone. It doesn't mean, imo, that belief can't shape reality though. Remember, she was the first to see the haloes and basically convinced Kellhus that he was holy. She made others see the haloes also. We find out through Koringhus and the JE that innocence, ignorance and surrender are holy, and Serwe was all of those things.

[Hirtius/Pansa]

Without Serwe no one tells Kellhus and Cnaiur about the Holy War. No one tells them about the Holy War, Kellhus kills Cnaiur and makes a beeline for Kian. Kellhus is killed outright because he's a Norsirai. Serwe is critical to Kellhus's anagnorisis in the first book and completely alters his plans.

That's only from a plotting standpoint, nevermind thematic content.