[Wilshire]

I think combining TTT and Kellhus' internal mystery voice into one thing is folly.

TTT is not an entity itself, its a thought. Multiple people have grasped it, even the half Dunyain. I believe Maithanet, inrilatas, and kelmomas all grasped it. There might even be hints in the Survivor sections of some grasping there, but I might be making that bit up.

Granted, the explanation that the Thought just talks to whoever it want explains this as well, but it seems that there would be more than just a bunch of crazy dunyain half-breeds and their parents that this sentient Thought thing would reach out too.. No, I think the common denominator is the probability trance, Occam's razor this and its just an extension of that. (Occam would not have done well with musing about these books though )

[H]

I think combing TTT and Kellhus' internal mystery voice into one thing is folly.

TTT is not an entity itself, its a thought. Multiple people have grasped it, even the half Dunyain. I believe Maithanet, inrilatas, and kelmomas all grasped it. There might even be hints in the Survivor sections of some grasping there, but I might be making that bit up.

It certainly is open to I don't believe that is true though.  Indeed, they all mention the Thought, but show no inkling (that I can find) of actually fully understanding it.

Take the exchange of Maith and Inrilatas:

"Was it her? Did she tell you about the Thousandfold Thought?"
"And you see me," the naked adolescent pressed, "the fact that I have been caged rather than drowned, as the most glaring example of your elder brother's folly."

[...]

"I fear that you might be..." the Shriah said. "I admit as much. But if you can see this, Inrilatas, then your father has seen it also—and far more completely. If he sees no sedition in my fearing, why should you?"

I would submit this as possible evidence to, at least, demonstrate the Maith does not grasp the Thought.  Simple because, if he did, he would not be questioning why Inrilatas is still alive.  I think it is more debatable if Inrilatas himself grasps it, which I am genuinely unsure of.  Presumably either does and realizes his role, or doesn't and just exacts it like any other just with the knowledge of being moved but unsure how.

The wild-card is Kelmomas.  I don't recall any evidence that he knows of the Thought besides it's existence.  However, is what he does part of the Thought?  And so, is what happens with Inrilatas part of it?  Or is it different means to the same outcome?

Granted, the explanation that the Thought just talks to whoever it want explains this as well, but it seems that there would be more than just a bunch of crazy dunyain half-breeds and their parents that this sentient Thought thing would reach out too.. No, I think the common denominator is the probability trance, Occam's razor this and its just an extension of that. (Occam would not have done well with musing about these books though )

Plausible, but that doesn't sate my need for crack-pottery, 

[MSJ]

Well, from Moe and Kellhus convo, we essentially o.o what the TTT is, right? Its a way to stop the rise of the No-God And defeat the Consult. So, any Dunyain, part or whole, could grasp this post TTT (the book). Thing is, I think the TTT outgrew Moe's initial thought, and has everything to do with the Voice. The Voice is the one thing none of the other Dunyain have, hence why Maitha says what he says to Inri. They have no idea what the TTT has grown into.

[themerchant]

"I shall never tire of underlining a concise little fact which these superstitious people are loath to admit-namely, A thought comes when it will, not when I will.”

― Friedrich Nietzsche

It's at the start of the book and describes the main theme of the book to a T, imo. I think in the false sun story this phenomenon is referred to as "Onkis".

As Moe says "i was quite unprepared when the first of the thought came to me"

I went and got the full quote longer to add context

"“When did you realize you didn’t possess the strength,” Kellhus asked, “that more was needed to avert the No-God’s second coming?”
“From the very first I recognized that it was probable,” Moënghus said. “But I spent years assessing the possibilities, gathering knowledge. When the first of the Thought came to me, I was quite unprepared."

Indeed, I think that is a big clue to the Thought being external to Moe, not a creation of his.

It could also explain why Moe "had" to die, since the Thought was always from a place beyond him, it needn't always include him.  In other words, he is simply another cog in the machine, not the engine (although he played a role of that for a time).

Kellhus muses something about how Moe didn't realise the thought would outgrow it's body of incubation or something like that.

[H]

Kellhus muses something about how Moe didn't realise the thought would outgrow it's body of incubation or something like that.

Well, what if The Thousandfold Thought is a Probability Trace but one that feeds back to itself?  That is, it is recursive and creates a feedback loop.

So it almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy machine.  In this way, Wilshire and I can both be right.

[themerchant]

I think combining TTT and Kellhus' internal mystery voice into one thing is folly.

TTT is not an entity itself, its a thought. Multiple people have grasped it, even the half Dunyain. I believe Maithanet, inrilatas, and kelmomas all grasped it. There might even be hints in the Survivor sections of some grasping there, but I might be making that bit up.

Granted, the explanation that the Thought just talks to whoever it want explains this as well, but it seems that there would be more than just a bunch of crazy dunyain half-breeds and their parents that this sentient Thought thing would reach out too.. No, I think the common denominator is the probability trance, Occam's razor this and its just an extension of that. (Occam would not have done well with musing about these books though )

Nah the voices and the thoughts are separate in my view.

The thought is the predetermined actions, I don't know what the voice is, so many people hear them, it might be different things.

Some people know it's name, doesn't mean they have grasped it. Esme knows it's name, she hasn't grasped it. I cannot recall any evidence that any of the named people have grasped it, beyond knowing it exists and naming it.

As Richard Feynman says "You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts. I learned very early the difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something."

Again the Thought is separate from the voice in my crackpot interpretation.

For instance I think Little Kel voice is ultimately a tool of Kellhus. Since we're also talking Malazan in the quorum as i type this, he was kellhus "shaved knuckle in the hole" against the white luck warrior.

I'll need to get all my TGO "revelations" written down before TUC, used to having more time to spread it out. A titbit is i think it's the real Lord Kosoter who mouths fungal warnings from Kellhus's belt :O

[themerchant]

Kellhus muses something about how Moe didn't realise the thought would outgrow it's body of incubation or something like that.

Well, what if The Thousandfold Thought is a Probability Trace but one that feeds back to itself?  That is, it is recursive and creates a feedback loop.

So it almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy machine.  In this way, Wilshire and I can both be right.

Hey you guys have more chance of being right than me

I think it is self-fulfilling in the way the Moeghus thought he authored it so went about fulfilling it. Not realising he is just doing what always happened anyway. No one has agency that was what i took from the koringhus internal struggles, why Kellhus just thinks he is a mechanism of the thought. Why thelli worked out he was nobody just what he needed to be.

[Wilshire]

Funny how a meaningful world still means there is not meaning

[MSJ]

I don't think all the Voices are the same. Kelmommas surely isn't hearing the Voice The Kellhus does. Its why I think that the Voice Kellhus hears (himself in the Outside, half ape/half Monk) is stearing the TTT. Kelmommas no would venture to say is hearing his dead brother sammy, who knows nothing of TTT. I don't subsribe to the theory that all Voices being heard are one and the same.

[H]

I don't think all the Voices are the same. Kelmommas surely isn't hearing the Voice The Kellhus does. Its why I think that the Voice Kellhus hears (himself in the Outside, half ape/half Monk) is stearing the TTT. Kelmommas no would venture to say is hearing his dead brother sammy, who knows nothing of TTT. I don't subsribe to the theory that all Voices being heard are one and the same.

Indeed, I hadn't considered otherwise, but never thought to note it.  From that Bakker interview he did where he compared his role and a DM to that of a "dark god" I went from doubtful on the Ajolki influence to well convinced it is real and what is guiding Kel.

[MSJ]

I don't think all the Voices are the same. Kelmommas surely isn't hearing the Voice The Kellhus does. Its why I think that the Voice Kellhus hears (himself in the Outside, half ape/half Monk) is stearing the TTT. Kelmommas no would venture to say is hearing his dead brother sammy, who knows nothing of TTT. I don't subsribe to the theory that all Voices being heard are one and the same.

Indeed, I hadn't considered otherwise, but never thought to note it.  From that Bakker interview he did where he compared his role and a DM to that of a "dark god" I went from doubtful on the Ajolki influence to well convinced it is real and what is guiding Kel.

Sorry, I thought themerchant was considering them all to be the same (excuse me if I'm wrong merch). Youve swayed me H. I think Kellhus(The Voice) is steering the Thought from the Outside. That's why Kellhus is more, he is mad. Remember, when Akka explains Madness to Cnauir? Its the Outside bleeding through to your soul. That's what is happening with Kellhus. He visits the Outside, has dreams from the Outside. And, he listens.

[themerchant]

Nah I don't think they are all the same source. I think little Kel is being guided by Kellhus. What voice Kellhus is hearing I don't know.

[MSJ]

Indeed, I hadn't considered otherwise, but never thought to note it.  From that Bakker interview he did where he compared his role and a DM to that of a "dark god" I went from doubtful on the Ajolki influence to well convinced it is real and what is guiding Kel.

Pssh, you need RSB to give you some random tidbit, to finally come over to Kelmommas is Ajokli's Narindar...... Dude, I've been saying it since the Slog and I had enough evidence for my liking then. TGO, just confirmed what I already knew. Yet, is the Voice truly Ajokli or Sammi. I'd say it's Ajokli and just guises his self as Sammi. Why, might you ask. When Esmi tells of the twins separation, the guy who did it said there was a chance for a unwelcome force to take control. Id say at the moment of seperation, Ajokli stepped in. And yes, I agree, Kellhus is just as blind to Kelmommas as the rest of the gods, excluding Ajokli.

[Francis Buck]

Now I like where this is headed.

If Ajokli is indeed the Voice for Kelmomas (and I fully agree there are many "voices" at play which are distinct from each other), then who exactly is Ajokli?

Who bit Kelmomas's neck until it bled, so as to remind him/self as "how things were before"?

And even then, we know from RSB's Westeros.org Q&A that "Ajokli is not the one who's invisible".

How to reconcile all of this...

[MSJ]

Now I like where this is headed.

If Ajokli is indeed the Voice for Kelmomas (and I fully agree there are many "voices" at play which are distinct from each other), then who exactly is Ajokli?

And even then, we know from RSB's Westeros.org Q&A that "Ajokli is not the one who's invisible".

How to reconcile all of this...

I posted in "The Gods" thread how it seems Ajokli is described as a companion of the Gods. I think Ajokli might be someone we know, someone that figured out a way to "ascend" you might say. Who that is, I don't know.

As to RSB's statement at Westeros, I think he was just alluding to the No-God or maybe even Kelmommas....