[themerchant]

There was something about water coming out of Moe's eyes in that scene.

Edit: I can't look it up. I lent my copy of TTT to a friend.

Not Moe's eyes. He walks through the water coming from two eyes above him as he says "this is where the probability trance failed me"

[Monkhound]

Ah, that may be it, I suppose. As said, I can't check it due to having borrowed my copy to a friend

[Wilshire]

But all those things seem to have meaning only because we want them too. You can do this exercise with every scene in the book and you won't necessarily get anywhere. Maybe there is or isn't, but we're nearly 4 books past it and none the wiser.

Maybe a couple sentences here or there in TAE, but largely the information in this scene appears to be all we'll ever get.

I've read that scene more than any other, i haven't found why it would be gleaming, the light can't pierce the water. Kelhus himself stops trying to pierce the water to see through.

Check out a waterfall some time. If you can, in the dark with a flashlight. Light pierces it but that doesn't mean you can see through it. Same issue with having a campfire in the dark and you can't see outside the immediate circle of light.

Light's still going past where you can see. Its just refracting and too diffuse to make sense of. It can simultaneously make it appear that the thumbnail is gleaming while also being too dim to see through the other side.

Moe sitting behind cataracts of great amounts of water so Kellhus can't see him. Weird since Moe is so weak in the Water.

Look, Water and water are two different things. He's sitting under a waterfall, full was water. The H2O kind. Nothing to do with Water, the metaphysical kind.

Pink imprints on the cloth.

This is frustrating. I'm going to chaulk it up to minor continuity/timeline issues. Bakker has some issues with time throughout, especially in TGO. There's no reason for there to be blood on the cloth, however I think the idea Bakker had was to show Moe proving to Kellhus he blinded himself. Granted, it should have been so long ago that unless the wounds are stigmata, they should be healed.

The incongruity with grasping the TTT as he had already been told he would grasp it.

Its not really incongruous in any way. He either really would have grasped it regardless of the foreknowledge, or its some total farce. Since TTT more/less worked out, its a pretty safe bet that its a real thing, so we can assume the hint was irrelevant.

 

This goes even weirder as the person who told him looks just like Kellhus and Moe (the Cish that zig-zagged to him),

A different question entirely. It is in fact very odd that this particular Cish looked like Moenghus. Was it wearing a blindfold? How could he even tell. No answers here on that one though.

kicking the skull ,

Foreshadowing almost certainly, but most likely foreshadowing either 'danger ahead' (lol jokes) and/or the death that occurs almost immediately afterward - ie Moenghus.

kellhus following a voice from nowhere to look about the place.

Internal monologue

Moe experimenting with Skinspies.

Kellhus was already doing this on the road. Why no Moe? Seems normal.

The whole meeting taking place at where Inri sejenus ascended.

Yes, an interesting bit.

Some answers from Moe "imperceptive slower" than others.

Lines up with dipping into the probablitliy trance. Standard dunyain stuff. Though makes me chuckle, if its imperceptible, then he shouldnt be noticing it.

Plus a few other things i've forgotten as this is from memory. I think this scene might have forshadowing if any scene is going to have it.

This scene, and all the others, especially if you stare at it too long.
I think we're well into Epileptic Tree territory with this scene.




Aside, if someone comes up with a theory on why the thumb gleaming is important to the series, I'll gladly read about it .

There was something about water coming out of Moe's eyes in that scene.

Edit: I can't look it up. I lent my copy of TTT to a friend.

Not Moe's eyes. He walks through the water coming from two eyes above him as he says "this is where the probability trance failed me"

There's also a bit about it looking like he's crying , IIRC. Its just water running down his face from the waterfall.

[themerchant]

Well remember i think Moe ensouled the skinspy Simas, not the Consult. So the experiments was in that context, and i reaching for things that one jumped into my mind, even though not relevant in the same sense.

[MSJ]

Well, my two cents? That meeting is chalked full of meaning. I think it would be wrong not to take every little thing in that meeting and analyze it. Because, ultimately we don't know if the salting was exactly what Moe wanted or not. I am not a big Moe is behind everything and all that, but many here (um hum, Wilshire) said we were dumb to the Cnaiur lived in any capacity. I'd say that meeting is the most important part of the text we've thus far come across. I think it laden with hidden meaning and insight. Just my opinion.

@Wilshire, I do love your sense of practicality and "it is what it is" attitude. I imagine you very practical, show me the truth type of man. Reminds me.of my father. That's a compliment by the way.

[Wilshire]

I'm almost entirely contrarian in nature, its compulsive. Too much agreeing makes my head spin, so you'll see me in turn support or argue against just about any theory around (except that Moe fucked up and died, that was a steadfast decision of mine from the start).

 Its honestly hard for me to say which way I really feel, but also irrelevant. All the good discussions arise from disagreement, so its the disagreement itself, rather than argument, that I find enjoyable:) . To a point, of course, as its easy to get carried away doing that and then everything just breaks down entirely.
A knife's edge.

As for Cnaiur still being alive, that's definitely the last time I'm letting Bakker's out-of-text 'answers' override discussions/theories. Not that I think he is a liar, but I think his need for obfuscation is so great, and his attention to detail so low, that he unintentionally says things that are simply not true but are in his head a super clever way of dodging the question.

Practical? Yes. "It is what it is", not so much. I'll take the compliment . Your description, in turn, reminds me of my own father, who I hold in the greatest esteem.

[MSJ]

I'm almost entirely contrarian in nature, its compulsive. Too much agreeing makes my head spin, so you'll see me in turn support or argue against just about any theory around (except that Moe fucked up and died, that was a steadfast decision of mine from the start).

 Its honestly hard for me to say which way I really feel, but also irrelevant. All the good discussions arise from disagreement, so its the disagreement itself, rather than argument, that I find enjoyable:) . To a point, of course, as its easy to get carried away doing that and then everything just breaks down entirely.
A knife's edge.

Now, that sounds exactly like my father, also. I'm not trying to give you a blow job here, lol. It's just your take on things and, yes, the choice to question or argue reminds me of my Dad (truly, my Grandfather who is 78, your and old soul Wilshire).

Practical? Yes. "It is what it is", not so much. I'll take the compliment . Your description, in turn, reminds me of my own father, who I hold in the greatest esteem.

Your welcome, and I hope you all know that I'm the worst person on the Internet at trying to get across my point sometimes. Is what it is, probably wasn't the right term, you're explanation is more along the lines of what I meant. YOU REMIND ME OF MY FUCKING DAD. (again, a compliment) It's just I know you're even younger than me, probably by a decade. It just crazy how different people are, and why they are that way.

[Wilshire]

The internet removes age/appearance as a basis for making decisions/conclusions, which significantly changes perception. Totally changes how one perceives the words written. I often find myself surprised when I find out everyone isn't exactly the same age as me... But that's enough circlejerking lol.

[H]

Well, I think Wilshire's general pragmatism and literalism is a good temper for the rest of our (often) fantasticism and analyticism.  (Yeah, some of those aren't actually words.)

This is important, because if sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, then also, sometimes it's not?

Like most things in life, balance is probably pretty key.

[Wilshire]

When Moenghus blinded himself, he sheared away his spirit, his identity -- the things which made him different from Kellhus -- thereby becoming a kind of reflecting pool for his son. This is why the conversation between two is so hotly debated and interpretive.

Kellhus is quite literally having a conversation with himself. He went down into the Nonman Mansion to do precisely what Nonmen do -- reflect upon himself.

Back to the OP.

This is an interesting point, given the revelations of TGO regarding Kellhus being not so much a person but a Place and/or a slave to TTT. Seems that Kellhus did to himself what you described Moe as. Maybe they both ended up at about the same place after 30 years of being in the Three Seas.

[H]

When Moenghus blinded himself, he sheared away his spirit, his identity -- the things which made him different from Kellhus -- thereby becoming a kind of reflecting pool for his son. This is why the conversation between two is so hotly debated and interpretive.

Kellhus is quite literally having a conversation with himself. He went down into the Nonman Mansion to do precisely what Nonmen do -- reflect upon himself.

Back to the OP.

This is an interesting point, given the revelations of TGO regarding Kellhus being not so much a person but a Place and/or a slave to TTT. Seems that Kellhus did to himself what you described Moe as. Maybe they both ended up at about the same place after 30 years of being in the Three Seas.

And yet we are presented with the idea that blindness provides insight and revelation.

Or is it that Moe's blindness turns him into the prototypical Dunyain?  So Kellhus' advantage is that he can "be more?"

[Monkhound]

Other similarities:
- Nonmen go into the Deep when they start breaking. Kellhus isn't that mentally stable when he enters Kyudea.
- The Nonmen are losing their sense of self. So does Kellhus (on the tree in Caraskand), with the difference that he has experienced the loss of self earlier (during his apprenticeship in Ishual), possibly making it possible for him to survive.
- Nonmen forget who they are. Their memories are everywhere and at any time they've ever been at at once. Kellhus is described as a Place, everywhere he needs to be.
- Kellhus goes into Kyudea guided by, and meeting, his father: Moënghus, the father, dies. Oinaral is going into the Deep of Ishoriol, guided by Sorweel/the Amiolas, to look for his father Oirunas: Oinaral, the son, dies.

[MSJ]

The internet removes age/appearance as a basis for making decisions/conclusions, which significantly changes perception. Totally changes how one perceives the words written. I often find myself surprised when I find out everyone isn't exactly the same age as me... But that's enough circlejerking lol.

We love ya Wilshire, but I will not participate in any circle-Jerks, lol. Indeed, back to the OA, sorry when thoughts come I speak, or write, or post.😀

I for some reason, believe we're not done with Moe, just a hunch. Isn't Meppa, could be who Kellhus sees in his visions though. Why I say this, is a point Madness brought up from TGO. That Kellhus that it a mistake to kill his father, though he never killed Moe, Cnäuir did. And, as I said in the slog, I think he wanted salted by Cnäuir, he knew Cnäuir would have his choral, that's for certain.

[mrganondorf]

CRACKIN' POTS: (This post actually started in the "Meppa's Role" thread, but it ended up becoming huge and sort of a different topic, so I made a new thread for it -- I may get around to talking about how the hell I think Meppa actually fits into this...some day).

Moenghus was and still is, in some capacity, actually helping Kellhus achieve his "destiny"...whatever that may be, as glimpsed by Moenghus and seemingly grasped by Kellhus. After all, practically the whole of PoN is a story of Kellhus gradually realizing that the World has been conditioned by his father, and while Kellhus is certainly aware of this, he nonetheless behaves as if he has, well, free will for lack of a better word (this arguably becomes blurry after the Umiaki Miracle).

Really, though, I think a great deal of the confusion comes from a misunderstanding of what the Psukhe is, what the Water is, what the intended meaning of Passion is, and most of all what a soul is. Near the beginning of TGO, when Achamian has the dream of Shauriatas (which we've had access to from the original first excerpt, back in 2013) he mentions the complexity of souls for a good reason:

“But souls are exceedingly complicated,” he continued. “Far more so than the crude sorceries used to trap them. The intricacies of identity are always sheared away. Memory. Faculty. Character. These are cast into the pit... Only the most base urges survive in proxies.”

There's an undeniable influence of Gnostic Christian myth & theology in the series (particularly when it comes to a lot of the subtleties in Earwa's metaphysics), and one glance at a Gnostic "diagram of a soul/spirit" should give an idea that complexity:



I'm not going to even try puzzling all that out with exact metaphysical analogues from TSA, in part simply because I'm not inclined to believe the metaphysics are fully analogous, but it is a jumping point of sorts.

Getting more to the point, I think a clarification of a few central topics may elucidate some facets of this discussion (or what may be clarifications in my own opinion, anyhow).

The Distinction between Soul & Spirit
This is more or less straight from Gnostic thought, but it appears in plenty of other belief systems in various forms. In common parlance, these words often used interchangeably, but with the metaphysics of Earwa, I think the defining the two notions is key to understanding, well, all sorts of shit in the series.

Basically, the Soul is akin to an exotic form of matter (or energy) which acts as the substrate for the Spirit. What Achamian describes as "the intricacies of identity" -- memory, faculty, character -- are in fact the Spirit of an individual. The things that make you, me, and Napoleon different people.

Souls, on the other hand, are not only identical but are actually the same thing from the same source (again, not unlike the way that all of our own brains are ultimately just made of atoms that once came from stars, etc.). It's useful to think of souls in the singular. Consciousness is encoded in the substrate of matter. Spirits are written on the substrate of Soul.

The Water is Soul, the primordial "sea" from which all Soul originated and, eventually, returned to.

Better yet, just think about the Force from Star Wars. The majority of people that die in Star Wars just...die, like regular humans. But in the case of "great sorcerors" like Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin, they are able to retain some remnant of their Spirit (identity) even after death, because reasons.

(Also, don't get too attached to the exact phrasing I'm using here because I'm pretty sure things are, as always, a bit more complicated. I'm just going for the main jist of my point here).

So, given all of the above, we can reassess the nature of the Psukhe, a school of sorcery that relies solely on passion. For the sake of expediency, and I will now rattle off a list of my current interpretations of what's going on in a way that may sound like it's totally supported by textual evidence, or as if I think I actually know precisely what's going on. The former is debatable, and the latter is hilariously untrue.

-The Cishaurim, through the art of the Pskuhe and ritualistic blinding, work to strip themselves of a "Self" (identity, spirit) and open their Third Eye (the Heart, seat of the Soul), a conduit to the primordial sea of Souls, called the Water.

-Because the Cishaurim have no Self/Spirit/Identity (or at least a very stunted one), they are also invisible to the gods -- also, by weaponizing pure Soul for their sorcery, it leaves no Mark on World.

-In addition (or alternatively), The God(s?) are blind to the Cishaurim, because by removing their eyes (Windows to the Soul), they've broken the Circuit of Watcher and Watched. It should also be noted that at least one of the reasons the Cishaurim use snakes as their symbiotic sensory apparatus is because snakes traditionally have very poor version, instead relying on taste/scent and thermal detection. This supports the relevance of the Circuit of Watcher and Watched --  the implication is that snakes are chosen deliberately because they do not rely on optical senses. After all, if you're going to use an animal surrogate for lost vision, why wouldn't you use something that's actually better at seeing? Like birds for example...

-The text is deliberately misguiding about the Psukhe and true the extent of the Cishaurim's abilities (or any one else who can tap into the Water for that matter -- I don't believe it's exclusive to the Cish). What the Psukhe lacks in raw power it makes up for in subtly, illusion, scrying, dreamwalking, etc. Because of the employment of a traditional, western concept of the Male Gaze through which the series is (mostly) told, and from the patriarchal society of the Three Seas, the Psukhe is disregarded as inferior, and Cishaurim as abominations so "Other" that barely anyone even tries to understand them. This is, of course, just about the worst possible way to approach the Cish, an institution that's seemingly founded on techniques of subterfuge, misinformation, and working as invisibly as possible. Like a spy organization...


- Contrary to first impressions, the Cishaurim are actually an ideal fit for a Dunyain. The text implies that because of the Dunyain’s “stunted emotions”, the Psukhe was a poor choice for Moenghus. But this is misguided, since as we know, the “passion” that drives the Psukhe is actually the most base parts of the Soul -- which are not so much stunted by the Dunyain as mastered by them.



Conclusion

The climactic confrontation between Kellhus and Moenghus in TTT can be thought of as akin to the scene in The Empire Strikes Back, when Luke is training on Dagobah and ventures down into the cavern. At first, he seems to find Vader down there, confronts him, and defeats him, only for it to be revealed that it was himself all along.

It’s been theorized many times that what makes Kellhus special is that he doesn’t just read faces -- he reads souls. This is why the people that contend with him are broken/enlightened based entirely on truths about themselves.

When Moenghus blinded himself, he sheared away his spirit, his identity -- the things which made him different from Kellhus -- thereby becoming a kind of reflecting pool for his son. This is why the conversation between two is so hotly debated and interpretive.

Kellhus is quite literally having a conversation with himself. He went down into the Nonman Mansion to do precisely what Nonmen do -- reflect upon himself.

And because Moenghus had made a mirror of himself for Kellhus, it allowed Kellhus the opportunity to glimpse the Darkness that Comes Before him, which is very well symbolized when Cnaiur and Serwe approach from behind moments before he uses the Cant of Transposition.


Bonus: The Scylvendi’s swazond are, in fact, an example of what Achamian calls “the crude sorceries used to trap” souls. This is part of what makes Cnaiur so powerful and age-defying. By capturing the raw soul of his victims, he actually makes his own soul stronger.

WELP YOU ARE AWESOME