[Gorgorotterath]

[Sorry for opening a new thread, but I was not sure where to put this one]

A few very disconnected thoughts in the aftermath of completing my first reading of TUC

I haven’t read any comment by anyone so far, so this reflects almost only my own understanding or misunderstanding of the novel. I obviously may have lost one or more threads while reading, together with my sanity, who knows

First thought: WTF?

Then: I was one of the people who loved The Prince of Nothing for the way it created a kind of Silmarillionesque world building with an ages-spanning history. I loved the philosophy imbued in it, as well as the mysteries of the Dunyain and the No-God. I am one of those people who prefers The Silmarillion (or Tolkien’s legendarium in all his iterations) to The Lord of the Rings that Bakker once stated the book was written for.

The Prince of Nothing was for me, The Aspect-Emperor not that much.

The age-spanning history has been put in the background putting more emphasis on the role of the Gods and the Outside. Now in PoN, the Gods did not strike me as particularly real, but just as interpretation of the Outside, most likely an incorrect one. In TAE there is a dramatic change of tone in this, with the Gods acting directly on the World, especially in the Psatma/White-luck Warrior storyline, which I pretty much hated. It quite killed my suspension of disbelief, given the image I had of Earwa up to PoN. the Gods come to the fore, but twenty years before some of them were hardly mentioned: Yatwer is never named in tDtCB, 3 times in WP (twice in almost random lists of Gods) and six times in TTT but only in the Glossary. In TAE she has become the main God of the Three-seas, and with the power to alter reality no less. No mention of the Narindar, the Judging Eye and the White Luck as well in PON, but now they are everywhere. This I felt has a massive retconning of a sort/  Anyway I enjoyed the parts I found less marred by this issue, such as the Akka/Mimara storyline, the trek to Saugliash and Ishual, the visit to Ishterebinth.

Now let’s get to The Unholy Consult.

Well for me as I said the Inchoroi and all the backstory up to the Fist Apocalypse
 was supercool, so this having the Dunyain “conquering” the Consult was quite a letdown. You have the fascination of a multi-millennial conspiracy crafted with great care along 5-6 books, and now these suckers of monks the overtake it in couple of years and a couple of chapters? It was a letdown for me, though I guess it sort of makes sense, it is just my personal taste. Reducing the dreadful Inchoroi and the fascinating Shauriatas/Shauriatis (can we decide his name by the way?) to puppets easily disposed of was a waste of great material I think.

And the super smart all conquering Kellhus? Deus it bring his own suicide consciously? Once in Dagliash he recognises that Dunyain are behind the Consult and then what is does? He goes back and collects Esmenet and Kelmomas, the makers of his defeat? He doesn’t notices twice the peculiar power of his son? Does he let his wife free Kelmomas without him even knowing it? We cannot know, since nothing is written from his perspective, maybe he is still plotting everything from the second rotten head. What of Sorweel chorae? Nobody noticed that one so realising that Kelmomas was saying the truth? What of Serwa love for Sorweel? Not a word is spoken of it.

What of Achamian dreams? What of the Inverse Fire, on which everyone mused for years, just to have it shrugged off in few paraphs...I guess it is unavoidable that the fascination of things seen fare away cannot survive a closer look, but Golgotterath as described in the few scenes of Seswata and Cayuti in TTT was much more dreadful and mysterious than the one seen here in TUC...I suspect there are many pits to be esplored undergound....


On the plus side, I enjoyed most of the journey of Agongorea (pretty crazy), the battle for Golgotterath and Skuthula at the Gate, the Nomen appearing at the end, and I found supercool the Resumption chapter. Blood chilling. I think that in the end the conclusion makes sense in hindsight, and I obviously look forward to a coda of one or two books, and to many more books from RSB.

Overall mixed feelings.
When I reached the beginning of Chapter 14, I wrote down 21 question without answer I had from the previous 6 books that I hope would have been answered in the last 200 pages of the series. Well I have to check, but I fear only a small minority of those got an answer of any sort. Very little for a book that was supposed to solve the greatest issues of the series. I will publish that list later on, probably

Thanks if you read this nonsense rant.

[Madness]

[Sorry for opening a new thread, but I was not sure where to put this one]

No apologies necessary. Please create new content. Wilshire's cutting off "Thoughts about the overall story, ending etc" after this fifteenth page regardless.

Overall mixed feelings.
When I reached the beginning of Chapter 14, I wrote down 21 question without answer I had from the previous 6 books that I hope would have been answered in the last 200 pages of the series. Well I have to check, but I fear only a small minority of those got an answer of any sort. Very little for a book that was supposed to solve the greatest issues of the series. I will publish that list later on, probably

I feel like Bakker has seeded a good number of plots for TSTSNBN that don't have much to do with TAE's storyline directly. Despite the intervening years and arbitrary snips, I actually think TAE's narrative arcs are quite well plotted, especially between books.

Hiro and pail, I'd really like to do that TSACast.

[Deustriplo]

[Sorry for opening a new thread, but I was not sure where to put this one]

A few very disconnected thoughts in the aftermath of completing my first reading of TUC

I haven’t read any comment by anyone so far, so this reflects almost only my own understanding or misunderstanding of the novel. I obviously may have lost one or more threads while reading, together with my sanity, who knows

First thought: WTF?

Then: I was one of the people who loved The Prince of Nothing for the way it created a kind of Silmarillionesque world building with an ages-spanning history. I loved the philosophy imbued in it, as well as the mysteries of the Dunyain and the No-God. I am one of those people who prefers The Silmarillion (or Tolkien’s legendarium in all his iterations) to The Lord of the Rings that Bakker once stated the book was written for.

The Prince of Nothing was for me, The Aspect-Emperor not that much.

The age-spanning history has been put in the background putting more emphasis on the role of the Gods and the Outside. Now in PoN, the Gods did not strike me as particularly real, but just as interpretation of the Outside, most likely an incorrect one. In TAE there is a dramatic change of tone in this, with the Gods acting directly on the World, especially in the Psatma/White-luck Warrior storyline, which I pretty much hated. It quite killed my suspension of disbelief, given the image I had of Earwa up to PoN. the Gods come to the fore, but twenty years before some of them were hardly mentioned: Yatwer is never named in tDtCB, 3 times in WP (twice in almost random lists of Gods) and six times in TTT but only in the Glossary. In TAE she has become the main God of the Three-seas, and with the power to alter reality no less. No mention of the Narindar, the Judging Eye and the White Luck as well in PON, but now they are everywhere. This I felt has a massive retconning of a sort/  Anyway I enjoyed the parts I found less marred by this issue, such as the Akka/Mimara storyline, the trek to Saugliash and Ishual, the visit to Ishterebinth.

Now let’s get to The Unholy Consult.

Well for me as I said the Inchoroi and all the backstory up to the Fist Apocalypse
 was supercool, so this having the Dunyain “conquering” the Consult was quite a letdown. You have the fascination of a multi-millennial conspiracy crafted with great care along 5-6 books, and now these suckers of monks the overtake it in couple of years and a couple of chapters? It was a letdown for me, though I guess it sort of makes sense, it is just my personal taste. Reducing the dreadful Inchoroi and the fascinating Shauriatas/Shauriatis (can we decide his name by the way?) to puppets easily disposed of was a waste of great material I think.

And the super smart all conquering Kellhus? Deus it bring his own suicide consciously? Once in Dagliash he recognises that Dunyain are behind the Consult and then what is does? He goes back and collects Esmenet and Kelmomas, the makers of his defeat? He doesn’t notices twice the peculiar power of his son? Does he let his wife free Kelmomas without him even knowing it? We cannot know, since nothing is written from his perspective, maybe he is still plotting everything from the second rotten head. What of Sorweel chorae? Nobody noticed that one so realising that Kelmomas was saying the truth? What of Serwa love for Sorweel? Not a word is spoken of it.

What of Achamian dreams? What of the Inverse Fire, on which everyone mused for years, just to have it shrugged off in few paraphs...I guess it is unavoidable that the fascination of things seen fare away cannot survive a closer look, but Golgotterath as described in the few scenes of Seswata and Cayuti in TTT was much more dreadful and mysterious than the one seen here in TUC...I suspect there are many pits to be esplored undergound....


On the plus side, I enjoyed most of the journey of Agongorea (pretty crazy), the battle for Golgotterath and Skuthula at the Gate, the Nomen appearing at the end, and I found supercool the Resumption chapter. Blood chilling. I think that in the end the conclusion makes sense in hindsight, and I obviously look forward to a coda of one or two books, and to many more books from RSB.

Overall mixed feelings.
When I reached the beginning of Chapter 14, I wrote down 21 question without answer I had from the previous 6 books that I hope would have been answered in the last 200 pages of the series. Well I have to check, but I fear only a small minority of those got an answer of any sort. Very little for a book that was supposed to solve the greatest issues of the series. I will publish that list later on, probably

Thanks if you read this nonsense rant.

Well said. That is exactly how I feel about the two series.

Truth Shines...

[Deustriplo]

And would love to read that list of Questions...

[Gorgorotterath]

Here there are my burning questions. probably they are not all the more relevant, these are the one relevant to me. I still have to go through most of the glossary so maybe some of them may get an answer there.

1) What is the No-God? Was it known to the Inchoroi before Arkfall?

This one gets some sort of answer though there is no explanation whatsoever on why an Anasurimbor is required. BTW Nau Cayuti was not an Anasurimbor as far as bloodlines go.  Hopefully this will be clarified in TBTSNBN?

2) Who burned the White Ships of Neleost?

No answer to this one. One could infer it was Ieva, or anyway that she has some role in this but no smoking gun. Maybe it is just irrelevant after 2000 years just as it is who was the mind behind Julius Cesar's killing...

3) What happened to Nau Cayuti?

Answered. jolly good

4) Who was Anasurimbor Ganrelka?

The forefather of Kellhus is never mentioned in the Sagas or in the books outside the prologue. I was wondering why he was so inconspicuous compared to hi very famous brother (niece nephew?) Nau Cayuti. Maybe it is just irrelevant...?

5) What happened when Kellhus visited the Outside (if he really did that)?

This one is clearly answered. I woul have liked to get some more hints from Iyokus, I must admit

6) What about the chanv? What is it? Where does it come from?

No answer. Probably Kellhus knew them, since he used the drug when "studying" Proyas in TGO.

7) Who is the guy in the Golden Room dreamt by Achamian?

Answered

8 ) Why Esmenet is "special"?

No answer that I could guess, and maybe there is no answer needed. But still I am a bit surprised that the almost only worldborn woman good for Kellhus was Achamian's wife (and Mimara's mother!!)

9)How did Mimara get the Judging Eye?

Why her among all the people? The one sent by Esmenet (or Kelmomas) to Achamian? Connected with question 8. Too many coincidences here, for me

10) What happened during the Second Watch? What did Sirwitta see?

No answer, though it can be inferred that he was shown the Inverse Fire. Still it would have been cool to have Oirûnas refer this (to Serwa? Sorweel?) maybe. But apparently Oirûnas was killed (see Glossary)

11) Was Sil king of the Inchoroi before Arkfall?

Answered

12) What are the Inchoroi? Where do they come from?

Answered, mostly. The precise answer to the second part is probably irrelevant now but who knows, we'll see

13) What did really happen on the Fields of Mengedda? Was the No God destroyed?

No answer. Kellhus hinted with Moenghus that the No God might have never been destroyed since It was speaking to him. Was the dream experienced by Achamian at the end of TTT truer than the "official" one? We do not now...many mysteries around Seswata yet...waiting for TBTSNBN??

14) What did Kellhus say to Seswata in TTT? How is this connected with the changes in Achamian's dreams?

No answer that I could find

15) Why di Moenghus leave Ishual in the first place?

This is still a helluva question for me. I asked RSB once on this forum he gave me as a Gordian knot of an answer. No answer so far.

16) How did Seswata escape from Dagliash?

No confirmation on this. Was it really Mekeritrig that freed him? Probably.

17) What happened to the Heron Spear after the Battle of the Elenëot Fields?

No answer? How and why did Seswata smuggle and hid it? Too many (small) mysteries of Seswata life remain unsolved. Looking forward to more dreams in TBTSNBN

18) Where is the Heron Spear?

Not found yet. The new one was probably recoverd by the Mutilated, just as the Scald

19) How did Seswata and Nau Cayuti manage to steal the Heron Spear?

The details of this stories still have to be answered. Maybe there is no need for details, but another hole in Seswata life

20) What is the Nail of Heaven?

No reference to this. Somehow connected with Arkfall as we know, but how?

21) Who killed Biaxi Sankas?

Is there any answer to this one? Was it Issiral? I could not find any solution.

22) Who was the Traveller who met Lord Kosoter at the beginning of TJE?

Maybe just a generic emissary from Kellhus. We do not know

23) How did Cleric end up with Kosoter? Which was Kellhus role here?

No clear resolution, no hints in TUC. But Kellhus knew of Nil'giccas so why did he send the Niom to Ishterebinth just the same without telling Serwa of the very likely trap? We do not see any discussion between father and daughter on this. I would have expected to see more of the Nonmen of the House Immortal in TUC.

23 questions and probably many more that I did not spot....6-7 got an answer in TUC, some of them seem to be irrelevant now, but may of the Seswata and Dunyain related questions are still pretty relevant I think. Did I miss any answer in my reading?   

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

1) What is the No-God? Was it known to the Inchoroi before Arkfall?

This one gets some sort of answer though there is no explanation whatsoever on why an Anasurimbor is required. BTW Nau Cayuti was not an Anasurimbor as far as bloodlines go.  Hopefully this will be clarified in TBTSNBN?

I think Akka's dreams setting up Nau-Cayûti as Seswatha's son might have been a red herring, it's likely he was Celmomas' son all along.

4) Who was Anasurimbor Ganrelka?

The forefather of Kellhus is never mentioned in the Sagas or in the books outside the prologue. I was wondering why he was so inconspicuous compared to hi very famous brother (niece?) Nau Cayuti. Maybe it is just irrelevant...?

I've wondered about that recently as well, but it seems to have been left unclear if he was Celmomas' son by a previous wife or his younger brother (still plausible he'd be Celmomas' heir in the latter case if Celmomas had no surviving sons). Nau-Cayûti is mentioned as "the youngest of Celmomas' sons" at some point (can't remember where), but that doesn't ncessarily mean Ganrelka was the other/one of the others.
The argument of the 15-year age gap between Celmomas and Ganrelka is not a point against Ganrelka being his son, in my opinion: if you notice, Nau-Cayûti was 21 at his death and had been married to Iëva to 7 years at that point (per Akka's dreams), meaning he was married at the age of 14. If Celmomas married for the first time while that young as well (or even younger), he could conceivably have fathered Ganrelka soon after the marriage.
It seems that this one may remain unanswered unless Bakker decides to reveal it at some point (I think it's very unlikely it ends up being mentioned in the final series, though) or someone asks him about it.

6) What about the chanv? What is it? Where does it come from?

No answer. Probably Kellhus knew them, since he used the drug when "studying" Proyas in TGO.

I still haven't given up hope we might find this out in the next series. Maybe Akka does become addicted to chanv after his qirri runs out as Wilshire theorized in another thread.

Why Esmenet is "special"?

No answer that I could guess, and maybe there is no answer needed. But still I am a bit surprised that the almost only worldborn woman good for Kellhus was Achamian's wife (and Mimara's mother!!)

I'd also love to know the answer to that one. Maybe if we knew who Maithanet's mother was we could pinpoint what made Esmenet so special by looking at what they had in common.
I hope there was/is an actual believable in-world reason for this other than "narratively, Kellhus needed to take Achamian's wife from him to cause conflict" or Esmenet being intelligent (so were many or all of the other concubines mentioned in passing and not a single one of them managed to give birth to a surviving, non-deformed child).
Now that I'm thinking about this, I also remember that Cnaiür's mother had that child by Moënghus after he left that was apparently healthy (but was killed alongside with her anyway...). Presumably, she also had whatever made Maithanet's mother and Esment so special?

9)How did Mimara get the Judging Eye?

Why her among all the people? The one sent by Esmenet (or Kelmomas) to Achamian? Connected with question 8. Too many coincidences here, for me

I think we have to chalk that one up to coincidence for narrative reasons. It doesn't bother me as much as Esmenet being the only one capable of bearing Kellhus' children, especially because Achamian's explanation (of sorts, it's not like he knows that much about it) gives the impression that it is a thing that is not at all unprecedented (and while it may be rare, it makes sense for something that makes a person see with the eyes of the God).
I wish we had more information about it and am still hoping for it, though that probably will go nowhere by this point.

13) What did really happen on the Fields of Mengedda? Was the No God destroyed?

No answer. Kellhus hinted with Moenghus that the No God might have never been destroyed since It was speaking to him. Was the dream experienced by Achamian at the end of TTT truer than the "official" one? We do not now...many mysteries around Seswata yet...waiting for TBTSNBN??

I don't have any coherent theories here, sorry (someone who's more familiar with the series and has done several rereads will probably say something more helpful eventually). I think it might have disturbed the system holding Nau-Cayûti's soul in place and deactivated it somehow? Making it need another soul to be active again?

18) Where is the Heron Spear?

Not found yet. The new one was probably recoverd by the Mutilated, just as the Scald

Wasn't it taken by the Scylvendi at some point after the First Apocalypse? Presumably, the Mutilated would have been able to track it down and recover it after they took over.

21) Who killed Biaxi Sankas?

Is there any answer to this one? Was it Issiral? I could not find any solution.

I can't remember right now...I recall Theliopa asking Kelmomas if it had been him, but we don't have evidence for that in any of his POVs like we do for the other murders he committed/instigated. Maybe it was indeed Issiral...

[H]

Why Esmenet is "special"?

No answer that I could guess, and maybe there is no answer needed. But still I am a bit surprised that the almost only worldborn woman good for Kellhus was Achamian's wife (and Mimara's mother!!)

I'd also love to know the answer to that one. Maybe if we knew who Maithanet's mother was we could pinpoint what made Esmenet so special by looking at what they had in common.
I hope there was/is an actual believable in-world reason for this other than "narratively, Kellhus needed to take Achamian's wife from him to cause conflict" or Esmenet being intelligent (so were many or all of the other concubines mentioned in passing and not a single one of them managed to give birth to a surviving, non-deformed child).
Now that I'm thinking about this, I also remember that Cnaiür's mother had that child by Moënghus after he left that was apparently healthy (but was killed alongside with her anyway...). Presumably, she also had whatever made Maithanet's mother and Esment so special?

9)How did Mimara get the Judging Eye?

Why her among all the people? The one sent by Esmenet (or Kelmomas) to Achamian? Connected with question 8. Too many coincidences here, for me

I think we have to chalk that one up to coincidence for narrative reasons. It doesn't bother me as much as Esmenet being the only one capable of bearing Kellhus' children, especially because Achamian's explanation (of sorts, it's not like he knows that much about it) gives the impression that it is a thing that is not at all unprecedented (and while it may be rare, it makes sense for something that makes a person see with the eyes of the God).
I wish we had more information about it and am still hoping for it, though that probably will go nowhere by this point.

Well, the question of why anyone is pretty ripe in this whole series.

What makes it even more confusing is that causality, apparently, is not linear, or at least, doesn't appear so.  Mimara has the Judging Eye across time and, like the tapestry from the Sartorials shows, she has always been pregnant.  Or at least, she has always been fated to be so.  But the Judging Eye existing before this does somehow indicate that there is some backward causality at play.

I don't think it's too far outside of reason to assume that the same could be true for Esmenet, in some similar fashion, even if she isn't the receiver of such a blatantly "divine" gift.  So, in this way, to sort of throw my own sort of crack-pot theory-crafting into this, it could be the case that:

1.) The Outside is beyond time. (Sort of a fact, I think.)
2.) Your soul is your connection to the Outside. (Sort of a fact again, possibly.)
3.) Ergo, your soul is your connection to the Eternal. (Indeed, whatever that means.)
4.) Therefor, whatever effects your soul over your lifetime, effects your soul at all times.

Of course, this makes no real sense, but I can't help but feel that something like this is how Eärwa works.

[Gorgorotterath]

Thanks for the answers.

@ThoughtsOfThelli: Biaxi Sankas appears as an entry in the Glossary, so it seems reasonable to think that there is still an open thread here. Speaking with Proyas in WLW, Kellhus states that he still had informants in Monemn...who were they? For the chanv, I would hope in an explanation as well, maybe in the next books. The Heron Spear was taken by the Scylvendi after the sack of Methsonc (or Cenei?)...but the one used by the Consult in the last book seems to be a new one, from Achamian's memories/dreams.

@H: your 4 points make pretty much sense as far as Mimara is concerned...not sure what it might mean for Esmenet.



Just another thing that came to my mind...If Kellhus (or an Anasûrimbor) was needed badly to resurrect the No-God (even if we hane no explanation whatsoever for the reason of this), why the Consult was so bent on killing him in the second half of The Warrior Prophet? Killing their only hope of salvation?

[H]

Just another thing that came to my mind...If Kellhus (or an Anasûrimbor) was needed badly to resurrect the No-God (even if we hane no explanation whatsoever for the reason of this), why the Consult was so bent on killing him in the second half of The Warrior Prophet? Killing their only hope of salvation?

I don't think, at that point, they realized fully the implications of Kellhus being an Anasûrimbor, they were just focused on the fact that he was screwing up their plans to eliminate the Cishaurim.

[Gorgorotterath]

You think they were not considering the full implication of the Celmomian prophecy?
(in theory) they knew that only Nau Cayuti's souls was successful in resurrecting the No-God, and that Celmomas had prophesied the coming of an Anasurimbor at the end of the world...I guess they did not need 5 Dunyain to solve this riddle.
The war with the Cishaurin was more important than abducting the vehicle of the No-God resurrection? That sounds strange to me

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

You think they were not considering the full implication of the Celmomian prophecy?
(in theory) they knew that only Nau Cayuti's souls was successful in resurrecting the No-God, and that Celmomas had prophesied the coming of an Anasurimbor at the end of the world...I guess they did not need 5 Dunyain to solve this riddle.
The war with the Cishaurin was more important than abducting the vehicle of the No-God resurrection? That sounds strange to me

I suppose it is possible that Kellhus was the preferred Anasûrimbor to place within the Carapace. He was not the only one, and if he was too powerful/dangerous to be able to suit their purposes, they had backups they could use. Which they ultimately did.

And at the time of TWP the Consult had not yet been taken over by the Dûnyain (almost certainly, they were still going around asking "who are the Dûnyain?" then), so Kellhus would not be seen as a crucial part of their plans then.

[Walter]

I think the guys interested in defeating the Cishaurim was the 'old Consult'.  Shauriatis and those guys.  They didn't understand the Celmonian prophecy as meaning that an Anasurimbor was necessary for Resumption.  The Dunyain figured that part out after the first trilogy.

I don't think they realized the No-God was Kelmomas until he killed Kellhus and shouted about being invisible to the Gods.

[Madness]

Yeah, it's not clear that the Consult even knew that they needed an Anasurimbor before the Mutilated came around.

[themerchant]

Nonman and human blood. That's about the only unique thing i can think of.

[Gorgorotterath]

Nonman and human blood. That's about the only unique thing i can think of.

Yes, that was actually the only idea I got as well...but still Nau-Cayuti was not an Anasurimbor by bloodline (I still trust Achamian's dream, they were correct on Nau-C being brought back to Gologotterath and fed to the sarcophagus, so I think they are correct on his father being Seswata as well)