[themerchant]

Akka's son?

[jurble]

ye

[MSJ]

Jurble is referring to the scene when Mimara and Akka first make it to the Ordeal. She finds a tapestry in the Umbilicus that shows a scene of her when she sees herself with the JE in The Mop. She had seen this tapestry before in Momemn. So, you could therefore conclude that Kellhus knew of her pregnancy and her holiness and this is why she and Akka were led to the Ark. Pretty nifty. I just don't know what good baby Kellhus does, unless Qirri makes him grow super fast or something. It does line up timeline wise also, that his soul could be in the babies. I don't have ability to quote from books, but I will later.

[Moosehunter]

Ah what the hell...............he's the Ciphrang Head sent to Zeum.

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

I'm honestly not sure how I feel about the whole "Baby Kellhus" theory. While it is definitely intriguing (and would explore the possibility of reincarnation in this universe), it still feels to much like a continuation of the whole "infallible and invincible Kellhus" idea. (and I had been fooled by that idea myself, but going back and rereading the early parts of TDTCB opened my eyes, he was never infallible at all)


Also...poor Akka, just imagine if this was true, after everything that happened between him and Kellhus, he finds out Kellhus took over his son. He just can't win!

[Cuttlefish]

Also...poor Akka, just imagine if this was true, after everything that happened between him and Kellhus, he finds out Kellhus took over his son. He just can't win!

Well, it's as Cnaiür puts it: when you are fighting against Kellhus, you must always assume you will lose, and plan accordingly.

Anyway, in a general sense, I can't believe Kellhus is done for. Kellhus is what made the series; the character that turned everything upside down by pre-emptively unifying the world to finish of the big bad ancient evil before it could be mustered. Without him, it's just a darker re-telling of almost every fantasy epic ever made.

[Madness]

Kellhus is now a baby, you noobs.

Welcome back to SA, jurble. I don't think I've seen you posting here since the old red v1 forumer!

Though, please, don't leave it up to MSJ or anyone else to make sense of your posts for the rest of us .

[Walter]

Didn't Sarl and the Captain tell us?  Sometimes old souls awaken behind the eyes of babes.  Sometimes men are too hard for Hell, some souls Bounce!

Though, I still think Kellhus is the Head On A Pole.  They are going to have to reenact the quest for the Heron Spear, only this time they will be looking for their Lord and Prophet's Head.

[jurble]

Kellhus is now a baby, you noobs.

Welcome back to SA, jurble. I don't think I've seen you posting here since the old red v1 forumer!

Though, please, don't leave it up to MSJ or anyone else to make sense of your posts for the rest of us .

I'm just too attached to the hilarious concept of Kellhus being a baby now to elaborate.  The fact that it isn't entirely absurd amuses me to no end.

[Madness]

Lol.

[greenshift]

I have to throw my hat in the 'Kellhus is not dead' camp with the explanation that he wasn't "wearing" his head at the time he was salted. Also with the outside chance that this was somewhat close to Kellhus's intended outcome.

While I don't have strong direct evidence, I feel a Cui Bono argument somewhat supports this. With Ajokli possessing Cnaiur we get insight that Ajokli doesn't know where Kellhus is. And Ajokli is pissed. Very pissed. Enough so that it appears Ajokli is now waging war against the No-God. With that in mind, who benefits from this outcome? Especially if you think that the No-God rising again is inevitable.

That line of thinking had me consider that the Kellhus "illusion" obfuscating the No-God initially could have been Kellhus's doing all along. This would be to trick Ajokli into thinking he is the No-God so that Ajokli would wage war against it. Although this conflicts with what I feel is a more supported argument that the illusion was from the Dunsult (foreshadowed by the Shauriatas 'hologram') but I guess that could be a red herring. And I also can't remember anything suggesting Kellhus would have the ability to create such an illusion which would be another strike against it (unless it's similar enough to how a sorcerer can alter dreams, except this requires it for EVERYONE watching). It also starts to get a little too far into the "Kellhus is in complete control" field for my tastes. I do think the guy is fallible, but maybe this isn't an example of his failure? Surely he's done extensive planning for this moment, no? Although I'm not sure how he could easily plot against Ajokli while also being somewhat possessed by him...so that is another potential problem with this hypothesis. Maybe when his own head is disconnected from his own body he can plot without Ajokli being aware?

[MSJ]

I'm still on board that Kellhus is in The Outside, was it planned? I think so. How else do we get Kellhus talking to Kellhus dreams, if he is not? Those dreams came from the Outside and a place created for Kelly is and his hungers. Which I find extremely interesting because his version of the Outside looked most serene. Now, that being said, I don't think he meant it to go down like it did. Rereading the Golden Room and when he sees Kel he is suprised, naot fake I'm a lying liar who lies surprised. It wasn't his he wanted it to go down. But, I agree, Ajokli coming back to look for Kellhus because he can't find him in Hell, suggests to me, that Kellhus had contingencies.

ToT (Thoughts of Thelli, from now on), "summon Madness" there is a great thread around here someplace on Kellhus's infalibility, by Locke, a very good thread and goes into great detail going back to TDTCB. So, yes, we know he makes mistakes and wrong assumptions. But, I agree with whoever said it (sorry) that Kellhus has planned for twenty years and in my mind, might just be smart enough to trick Ajokli into waging war on the No-God.

H, I think you've been right, and I am quite enamored even more so now. Because if what we see in the dreams is Kellhus's little nook in the Outside, he seems to be benevolent and possibly holy.

Again, Baby Kellhus is very, very intriguing. Especially from a tin-foil hatter as myself. I just don't see the point. I think Mimara's baby would be Holy no matter if Kellhus inhabits it soul or not.

Here's my thinking and a lot has went into this the last couple of days. Kellhus is on the Outside, but not the way he wanted to go down...maybe. Anyway, he is warring with the Gods to stop damnation and Mimara's baby will be very important in the New Empire and a new Inri Sejenus, so to say. The son of the Holiest woman on Earwa and being fed Qirri of the Last Nonman King, may lead to a great soul, a would greater than Kellhus indeed. That can lead Earwa to salvation, with the help of Kellhus on the Outside.

Again, I don't think it went down as Kellhus planned, his infallibility has been shown time and again, but has always had contingencies and such to stay on the Path.

ETA: I love the F'N traffic around here. My favorite place in the whole wide world, on the internet.

[Simas Polchias]

If Kellhus is Ajokli then Esmenet is Yatwer and Cnaiur is Gilgaol. :3

1) Kellhus spoke about himself being not a person but a place. Like, a place of multiple ascension? He is an outside-port (as in space-port), capable of launching people to godhood. Dunno about Esmenet, but Cnaiur seems like a ciphrang who will devour even other ciphrangs.
2) Ajokli is hunted by the other gods. And if he is Kellhus and they are his mortal companions and/or enemies, it gives a reason for such war in the Outside. They've all leveled up tremendously -- and circumstance "everyone wants that smartass Kellhus dead" leveled up with them.

[Cuttlefish]

If Kellhus is Ajokli then Esmenet is Yatwer and Cnaiur is Gilgaol. :3

1) Kellhus spoke about himself being not a person but a place. Like, a place of multiple ascension? He is an outside-port (as in space-port), capable of launching people to godhood. Dunno about Esmenet, but Cnaiur seems like a ciphrang who will devour even other ciphrangs.
2) Ajokli is hunted by the other gods. And if he is Kellhus and they are his mortal companions and/or enemies, it gives a reason for such war in the Outside. They've all leveled up tremendously -- and circumstance "everyone wants that smartass Kellhus dead" leveled up with them.

Kellhus refers to himself as a place more than once, throughout the entire series; especially when he enters the probability trance or just super Dunyain mode. It's how Dunyain view themselves, I think; more a place to be filled with the world, in their observations, than actual persons.

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

ToT (Thoughts of Thelli, from now on), "summon Madness" there is a great thread around here someplace on Kellhus's infalibility, by Locke, a very good thread and goes into great detail going back to TDTCB. So, yes, we know he makes mistakes and wrong assumptions. But, I agree with whoever said it (sorry) that Kellhus has planned for twenty years and in my mind, might just be smart enough to trick Ajokli into waging war on the No-God.

I will go and try to find it, thank you for the recommendation.
He definitely could be, I'm just leaning towards the "not infallible" idea for now. I really need to reread TAE, TUC included, I feel like there are quite a few details I'm missing (but unlike most of you, I've only read the whole series once, so that was to be expected).

Again, Baby Kellhus is very, very intriguing. Especially from a tin-foil hatter as myself. I just don't see the point. I think Mimara's baby would be Holy no matter if Kellhus inhabits it soul or not.

That's how I feel about it too, if reincarnation is possible and Kellhus figured it out, then yes, I see how he could plan to have Achamian and Mimara meet with the Great Ordeal, etc. and the baby would be a failsafe in case his original plan went wrong. But yes, I don't think Baby Kellhus will be an actual thing, even if it is a very amusing theory.

Here's my thinking and a lot has went into this the last couple of days. Kellhus is on the Outside, but not the way he wanted to go down...maybe. Anyway, he is warring with the Gods to stop damnation and Mimara's baby will be very important in the New Empire and a new Inri Sejenus, so to say. The son of the Holiest woman on Earwa and being fed Qirri of the Last Nonman King, may lead to a great soul, a would greater than Kellhus indeed. That can lead Earwa to salvation, with the help of Kellhus on the Outside.

Again, I don't think it went down as Kellhus planned, his infallibility has been shown time and again, but has always had contingencies and such to stay on the Path.

Just curious, if you believe Kellhus is in the Outside, then why can't Ajokli-as-Cnaiür (or is that Gilgaöl-as-Cnaiür?) find him? Is his soul somehow invisible to the Gods?

So your idea is that the baby will be a true prophet, in contrast to Kellhus as a false one? He will definitely be special, as the son of one of the only holy people around (that we know of), nourished on qirri for most of the time he was in the womb, the child of two of the Few, the list goes on. It would be interesting to see the real thing in the story, that's for sure.