[Madness]

...

It's the part where Sorweel tries to kill him for the last time.

I don't see why Kellhus gaining some knowledge of the Psûhke would be far-fetched though.

Also, I feel there is a Bakker quote somewhere in which he says that the "halos" are not sorcerous.  Also, doesn't Serwë see the Halos on the skin-spy impersonating Kellhus?  Pretty clear indication that they are user-generated, we thought back when...

As per Wilshire...

Serwe does see the haloes on the Skin-Spy impersonating Kellhus.

[H]

As per Wilshire...

Serwe does see the haloes on the Skin-Spy impersonating Kellhus.

Pretty much alerting us to the fact that the source of the halos wouldn't be Kellhus himself, or something gifted upon him.  Rather, since she sees them in Kellhus' actual absence, the halo's presence must be predicated on her and Kellhus' visage.  So, one of the few plausible explanations would be that they are perceptually added by the viewer upon Kellhus.  Literal "lights" of delusion.

[Yellow]

Kellhus at some point expressed a very low opinion of the God of Gods, which throws me off noticeably. Not in the sense that I'm perturbed by it, but in the sense of making the subject much murkier than it was before. And I'm not even sure Kellhus should be taken seriously there.

To your point, I'm always unsure that when Kellhus talks of the God of Gods he just is talking about the 100. All, I've ever taking seriously that he's said about the God of Gods, is that he sleeps. Quite frankly, I think all his commentary TGO onwards is all about the 100.

I'm just re-reading TUC and got to the point where Proyas asks Kellhus about the God, and his reply was that it is as blind to its own Creation as Men are to themselves. He definitely isn't referring to the 100, as they had just been discussing the 100.

[Sausuna]

...

It's the part where Sorweel tries to kill him for the last time.

I don't see why Kellhus gaining some knowledge of the Psûhke would be far-fetched though.

Also, I feel there is a Bakker quote somewhere in which he says that the "halos" are not sorcerous.  Also, doesn't Serwë see the Halos on the skin-spy impersonating Kellhus?  Pretty clear indication that they are user-generated, we thought back when...

As per Wilshire...

Serwe does see the haloes on the Skin-Spy impersonating Kellhus.

Though, as a skin-spy, they might have access to holograms, no?

[H]

Though, as a skin-spy, they might have access to holograms, no?

If the holograms could be projected that far, wouldn't that invalidate most of the need for skin-spies?

[Sausuna]

Though, as a skin-spy, they might have access to holograms, no?

If the holograms could be projected that far, wouldn't that invalidate most of the need for skin-spies?

I meant more like having a device on them. Sort of how like they made one with a soul, one Inchoiri who could manage magic, salvaged one nuke. Perhaps they managed one hologram projector for a special Kellhus skin-spy.

Though, honestly, I can't recall when this scene happened. Unless I'm missing something

[H]

I meant more like having a device on them. Sort of how like they made one with a soul, one Inchoiri who could manage magic, salvaged one nuke. Perhaps they managed one hologram projector for a special Kellhus skin-spy.

Though, honestly, I can't recall when this scene happened. Unless I'm missing something

I think it's just too early for that.  I don't really think any of that stuff worked pre-Dûnsult.

The scene is in TWP, I'm pretty sure, or maybe TTT.

[SmilerLoki]

I'm just re-reading TUC and got to the point where Proyas asks Kellhus about the God, and his reply was that it is as blind to its own Creation as Men are to themselves. He definitely isn't referring to the 100, as they had just been discussing the 100.

I take it in a far more general sense of the immanent God, where the Hundred is His most significant part.

Not strictly, though, it's just my first impression, based on what was said about the Hundred previously and their general status as parts of the God. There are, of course, other ways to understand Kellhus' words.

[MSJ]

Yea, it's exactly how I take it since TGO and his talk with Proyas, the whole "IT" talk. See, this is where we have to wonder when and where did Ajokli start to influence him and I don't think it's this far back. Influence...he's, but speak through Kellhus, I just don't but it.

[Khaine]

So I have been re-reading passages from the GO and the UC.

And I am trying to put everything together.

Kellhus goes mad during this circumfixion which breaks his spirit and allows the agents from the Outside into his mind.

Initially he thinks it is the No-God who speaks to him, for whatever reason. Maybe the influence of Achamian, the discovery of the Consult and so on.

Then he says that he learns to ignore the voices in his head.

"He suffered visions, certainly, but he had long ceased to trust them".

GO, p. 121, Chapter Aorsi (hard pack version)

We know that during the Unification Wars, Kellhus studies Daimos and he walks in the Outside and he comes back. Presumably during this time, he makes the deal with Ajokli.

But maybe Ajokli being the trickster god, cheats Kellhus into thinking that he is the God of Gods.

My impression is that when Kellhus reveals to Proyas that the God of Gods is the antithesis of love and that he cares not, and says that the damnation of mankind is the granary of the gods, Kellhus has in mind Ajokli, but he does not know it.

I mean this is the trickster god, surely he could trick Kellhus.

Kellhus labours under the impression that he has some deal with Ajokli-who-pretends-to -be the god of gods and proceeds with his Great Ordeal. Possibly he is under the impression that if he vanquishes the Consult and its allies, the god of gods will somehow reward him.

This line, the living should not haunt the dead is inserted a few times.

Kellhus says to the Dunyain allies of the Consult that he is an inverted prophet. This echoes his conversation with Proyas, where he says a prophet brings word of mortals to the gods.

"Then what is their purpose?"
"Is it not plain? To deliver word of Men to the Gods".

GO, p. 122, chapter Aorsi.

"I bore word of the temporal to the divine"

UC, chapter the Golden Room, p.415

Right until that point Kellhus is in control.

But then Ajoklis takes over, he is the trickster god and more importantly he reveals to the Dunyain that basically the Ark is the deepest topos on Earwa which allows him to seep through and take over Kellhus.

 

"Because in all the World, no place has witnessed more terror, more obscenity, brutality, or sublime trauma. Your Golden Room is scarcely more than a bubble floating upon the Transcendent Pit. Hell, my brothers. Hell pollutes its every shadow, smokes from its every surface, creeps through its every brace..."

UC, The Golden Room, p. 421 ( some italics were removed but you get the gist).

 
It is quite conceivable that Kellhus had a different plan altogether from Ajokli and in the end Ajokli is the one who gets undone.

Kellhus was perhaps under the impression that he would somehow strike a bargain with the gods. I will terminate the effort to shut the world, because if the Consult is successful the gods will lose, but in return the living will not be claimed by the gods or something.

And this is where my thought fails me but without having a clearer picture of the metaphysics of damnation is hard to tell what a possible bargain between Kellhus and Ajokli would look like. But we should not exclude the possibility that Ajokli manipulated Kellhus.

 

Thoughts?

[Yellow]

You make some great observations. But for me, whatever way that Ajokli tricks Kellhus, I think his views of the God are his own. He's perfectly able to draw his own conclusions to the end. It's just that his agency is removed from him in the end

"The living shall not haunt the dead" is a fantastic line. I've often thought on what it means. I always thought it meant that the living' s sense of right and wrong - their notion of damnation - was what held the dammed in place... But then Bakker has shat on the idea of subjective truth leading to objective truth, so I don't see how the living *can* haunt the dead.

It's still a great line.

[JerakoKayne]

Though, as a skin-spy, they might have access to holograms, no?

If the holograms could be projected that far, wouldn't that invalidate most of the need for skin-spies?

I meant more like having a device on them. Sort of how like they made one with a soul, one Inchoiri who could manage magic, salvaged one nuke. Perhaps they managed one hologram projector for a special Kellhus skin-spy.

Though, honestly, I can't recall when this scene happened. Unless I'm missing something

That would require a great deal of prescience I'm not convinced the Consult has. AFAIR, Serwe's rape by the haloed skin-spy was well before his rise/acceptance as the Warrior-Prophet. I'm not convinced they'd even have known rumors of the halos, let alone invested the effort and energy required to make it a part of the deception.

I rather think all the haloes presented (Mimara's included) are a matter of self-deception. Self-delusion from those who want to believe so badly they make it manifest. Certainly this is true with Serwe, who from the first thought of Kellhus as a literal God walking the earth. And why it is so telling of Kellhus' self-delusions when he begins to see them for himself.

For all his ubermensch capabilities, Kellhus has always suffered pride. I believe this to be the weakness Ajokli exploited.

edited for teh grammarz

[Madness]

I'll reiterate for posterity that I don't think Kellhus and Ajokli made any deals.

[TaoHorror]

I'll reiterate for posterity that I don't think Kellhus and Ajokli made any deals.

Does thou scribbler whisper in thoust ear? Eh, Madness? Than what deals do you think is being referred to? Who is dealing with whom?

[Madness]

Lol, what?

A lot of readers seem to think that Kellhus and Ajokli made deals and Ajokli played Kellhus. Likewise that Kellhus made "pacts with the Pit."

I'm of the opinion that Ajokli played Kellhus entirely, the two of them never having "met" directly. Likewise my interpretation is that Ajokli had to make deals with Hell, not Kellhus.

But again, I'm a minority .

And if by scribbler, you mean Bakker, I haven't talked to him since Zaudunyanicon except for an email or two.