[Wilshire]

1) The threshold of the door, or actually the balcony, would be the tipping point for full possession imo.

I don't see where you, Madness and others buy into this. It goes against the textual evidence. Malowebi does not see the. "Globules" until they are in the golden room. And that is after minutes(?) Of dialogue. That is when total possession begins. I thinks that's totally clear from the book. Where do you see Globules taking over Kellhus before then? That is when total possession occurs. Please show me evidence to the contrary. Not your thoughts, evidence from the books.

I don't think that means what you think it means: textual evidence. (jokes - reference to Princess Bride 'Vizzini' saying 'inconceivable!')

Anyway, I did provide evidence directly following the sentence you quoted:

Probably the major reason for Iyokus' Ciphrang going back to hell happening on the far side of the bridge is important for that reason.

Here is why I think that scene is important:
It doesn't happen when the Ciphrang is in the Ark, it happens when its outside. The threshold for new rules appears to be crossed at some point near the Ark, not inside it. Without argument, Kellhus is actually much, much closer to the center of the worlds biggest topoi - which is the Golden Room - than the Ciphrang was outside the base of the Horn.

Thus, an argument can be made that standing on the balcony caused Ajokli to gain a greater foothold on Kellhus' consciousness than maybe he was capable of previously.

The line is blurry - we can't see or know where the topos truly is. In fact, far stranger things happen at Mangecca and in Cil' Aujas (ffs remember the heart! that kind of just dead ended lol) than on the Fields Appalling (FA). I'd expect, given the immensity of the topos, fairly all of Agongorea but certainly the FA would exhibit major metaphyaical effects...

Ah, but I'm way off track. What I was pointing out was exactly what you asked - that TUC does provide enough evidence for an argument to be made.

I am not asking you to change your mind, nor am I even claiming to believe the argument itself.

Hmm, also please note that I did not make a single claim about 'globules'. I'm not going to find evidence to support an argument I didn't make. That said, if you'd like, we could probably make a new topic "Of Globes and Men" and have a lengthy discussion . (Oh, to that end, I might say that its possible that Malo had his own new rules upon entering. That the topos and its proximity to hell gave his dead eyes the ability to see what Ajoki was up to. That the DarkGlobes That Come Before were always there, but being in the room allowed him to see!)

btw, i also did not claim that full possession occurred at that moment. Only that it was a tipping point. I'm sorry if that caused confusion.
----------
edit: portion redacted. Didn't like how that read. Sorry about that, too.
----------

And here I thought that full possession wasn't until his head erupted into flames...in any case, since we have no idea what would delineate partial and full possession, it will be impossible to really definitely know, one way or the other.

I agree 100% H. What I meant is that Malowwbi seeing the Globules is the beginning of the possession. When Ajokli begins to transit from the Outside to Kellhus, once in the Ark. The Globules are just the beginning. I agree, full possesion is when he stomps and Kellhus's head burst into flames. I agree.

Ah see, you guys already covered it before I could get to it. Ok, now I gotta be tongue in chek: don't give me your opinion, show me where in the text that the Globules mean ... anything. Looks to me like the soggomatic metal had a smudge, and then when he turned away he was suffering some degenerative eye decay from being dead.
Just playing MSJ. Going through this thread though, you ask for evidence from the text a lot and sometimes I feel you don't acknowledge it when it when its provided. Keep an open mind!

4) "Pacts with the Pit" and "the living shall not haunt the dead" are still unclear to me.

See my thoughts here (from page 7).

Heh, I've read up through 11. Despite yours and others best efforts, I'm still confused . Not your fault lol.

[MSJ]

Kepep an open mind!

Always.

I must excuse myself, as I thought you meant that was when possession occured. I think the Globules which are not only seen on Kellhus, but the other decapitants is enough evidence that that is when Ajokli's possession is occurring.

[Wilshire]

Kepep an open mind!

Always.

I must excuse myself, as I thought you meant that was when possession occured. I think the Globules which are not only seen on Kellhus, but the other decapitants is enough evidence that that is when Ajokli's possession is occurring.

I edited my post like 35 times in the last 5 minutes lol. Sorry for the initial tone - I tried to revise it ...
Also, I'll write this bit again since you might have missed it due to my myriad edits:
 I might say that its possible that Malo had his own new rules upon entering. That the topos and its proximity to hell gave his dead eyes the ability to see what Ajoki was up to. That the DarkGlobes That Come Before were always there, but being in the room allowed him to see..

Yeah, its pretty thin reasoning - just trying to play ball!

[H]

Heh, I've read up through 11. Despite yours and others best efforts, I'm still confused . Not your fault lol.

Well, my short and simple explanation would be: the living never tread in the Outside (the land of the dead).  Ergo, since Kellhus is there, he is dead.  Just he hasn't actually been killed yet.

[TaoHorror]

My minuscule contribution ( was mentioned long before, reviving the point ), when Melo was "advised" to avert his eyes from the IF, that was Kellhus talking. To fuse Bakker's "clarification" (bp), the possession was in progress throughout Kellhus's progression through Golgatterath and Bakker's other clarification that Kellhus was "seized" when the head flamed, full possession occured at that point. What's dicey is what state of consciousness/agency does Kellhus enjoy during the process of possession - I can't tell from the text.

[MSJ]

What's dicey is what state of consciousness/agency does Kellhus enjoy during the process of possession - I can't tell from the text.

My opinion, and I think there is textual evidence for it, is none. He has no control. If so, he would've knew that Kelmommas was in the room and not have been taking off guard. Is have to reread it, but Kellhus seems completely unaware and in a state of shock when Ajokli releases him

 

I might say that its possible that Malo had his own new rules upon entering. That the topos and its proximity to hell gave his dead eyes the ability to see what Ajoki was up to. That the DarkGlobes That Come Before were always there, but being in the room allowed him to see..

Maybe, I don't think so. Again, I'd have to reread it. But, from my recollection from 6 months ago, is that he sees himself and Kellhus in the soggomat before and never mentions it. Then, he sees it and he wonders on it and right before Ajokli takes possession he sees it in the other decapitant.

That being said, leads me to a little pet theory. The decapitants are actually "doorways" for the Outside. And, that might be valuable for, "Kellhus is dead, but not done...".

[Madness]

Lol. Back to MSJ's recent original comment, which I can't believe has been this confusing for two pages .

1) The threshold of the door, or actually the balcony, would be the tipping point for full possession imo.

I don't see where you, Madness and others buy into this. It goes against the textual evidence. Malowebi does not see the. "Globules" until they are in the golden room. And that is after minutes(?) Of dialogue. That is when total possession begins. I thinks that's totally clear from the book. Where do you see Globules taking over Kellhus before then? That is when total possession occurs. Please show me evidence to the contrary. Not your thoughts, evidence from the books.

To the point, Malowebi actually doesn't get a chance to see the obfuscating "Globules" until Kellhus moves into a position where from Malowebi's hanging vantage he's able to see the reflection of what's going on in an extended piece of Soggomant.

Malowebi can't see Kellhus' head or the other Decapitant until that point, which as noted isn't until after the Mutilated reveal themselves. The "Globular" phenomenon could have been going on the whole time and we wouldn't have noticed it - and likely no character excepting the already severed, Decapitant disguised, head of Malowebi could have given us that particularly insightful POV either way.

EDIT: I should add, even once Malowebi is watching through the Soggomant reflection, he doesn't even look at the Decapitant or Kellhus until later in the conversation, as I recall.

[MSJ]

Yea but, Malo sees the Globules rise and get thicker in Kellhus. And he's sees the Decapitant go f from no Globules to full of them right before the possession. Which makes sense, because the Ark being such a huge Topoi and the barrier to hell so thin, its the only place for Ajokli to manifest with all of his power.

[MSJ]

In fact, In can find no mention of the Globules before this.

But the reflection of the Anasûrimbor across the golden fin stood motionless before the regard of the Mutilated.

[MSJ]

Lol. Back to MSJ's recent original comment, which I can't believe has been this confusing for two pages

You only find it confusing, because you don't agree. You have your preconceptions.. I have offered you textual evidence that Mali seen Kellhus in the soggomat and no globules were present.

Furthermore, you speak to the MAN. And, if that's what your basic g your opinion off of, he does a very shotty job of conveying that in the text.

ETA: I went back and read the entire GR scene. Malo does see Kellhus in the "golden fin", but the above quote is after the globules. I have about 5-8 quotes proving that the globules were not there to begin with. I will give a post that's worthy when I have time.

[Wilshire]

Would just like to say the term 'globules' is super lame lol, and seeing it written so many times is mildly frustrating (especially considering that it portends something of immense importance, for such a silly word).

Aside, turns out after page 11 I actually participated in the rest of the thread lol. No more commentary on the past from me (at least for this one).

[Madness]

Yea but, Malo sees the Globules rise and get thicker in Kellhus. And he's sees the Decapitant go f from no Globules to full of them right before the possession. Which makes sense, because the Ark being such a huge Topoi and the barrier to hell so thin, its the only place for Ajokli to manifest with all of his power.

In fact, In can find no mention of the Globules before this.

But the reflection of the Anasûrimbor across the golden fin stood motionless before the regard of the Mutilated.

Lol. Back to MSJ's recent original comment, which I can't believe has been this confusing for two pages

You only find it confusing, because you don't agree. You have your preconceptions.. I have offered you textual evidence that Mali seen Kellhus in the soggomat and no globules were present.

Furthermore, you speak to the MAN. And, if that's what your basic g your opinion off of, he does a very shotty job of conveying that in the text.

ETA: I went back and read the entire GR scene. Malo does see Kellhus in the "golden fin", but the above quote is after the globules. I have about 5-8 quotes proving that the globules were not there to begin with. I will give a post that's worthy when I have time.

I yield, MSJ . I haven't reread through TUC enough to claim any kind of expertise.

I also try very hard to limit any kind of influence my conversations with TMH might bleed into my posts here. There are plenty of things that he's outright told me that I haven't revealed and don't comment on (even as per TGO, for any rascals reading).

I can honestly say that I interpreted pretty much everything in the draft (which was less explicit than the canon artifact) as Bakker intended - you need only ask Wilshire, MG, Somnambulist, or profgrape as to how I hounded them for months before the book was released about Kellhus being ignorant of Ajokli and Ajokli's attempt at Earwan incarnation. I was more surprised than even Bakker probably to see how the majority of readers perceived "a deal" between Kellhus and Ajokli.

I'll have to look for better textual evidence to support my opinion on my reread (almost done LTG before I move on to the Atrocity Tales, Crash Space, and The Dime Spared).

Would just like to so the term 'globules' is super lame lol, and seeing it written so many times is mildly frustrating (especially considering that it portends something of immense importance, for such a silly word).

Lmao.

[MSJ]

Would just like to say the term 'globules' is super lame lol, and seeing it written so many times is mildly frustrating (especially considering that it portends something of immense importance, for such a silly word).

Bro, if you have a different word to offer up, I gladly switch!

I also try very hard to limit any kind of influence my conversations with TMH might bleed into my posts here. There are plenty of things that he's outright told me that I haven't revealed and don't comment on (even as per TGO, for any rascals reading).

Ok, even what we know from the AMA, Ajokli was slowly taking over and affecting Kellhus's decision making. I think that Wilshire is right, the gate was the tipping point. Because that's when he enters the Ark and the hell and Earwa's boundary is paper thin. I just think the Globules (Sorry, Wilshire) are a way to show the true manifestation of Ajokli. Its when you get something ain't right here. That's my reading. Doesn't mean its right. I think people think there is a pact because Kellhus speaks of it before going full on Ghost rider.

[Wilshire]

Oh just noting it, don't worry about me. Its more funny than anything else. We're left with what Bakker gave us lol. The Darkness Globules that Come Before.

[TLEILAXU]

There's nothing wrong with globules.