[Wilshire]

What does that show? The Inchoroi probably thought every planet was the promised land.
Granted, no other planet has sorcery, which makes Earwa special, but even then that doesn't point to knowing anything of the No-God. If they knew of it, they'd have tried to use it, and even if they did knew and did try to make it work, it never turned on, so I'm sure they long since abandoned it.

No. The No-God was new to Earwa.

[TLEILAXU]

What does that show? The Inchoroi probably thought every planet was the promised land.
Granted, no other planet has sorcery, which makes Earwa special, but even then that doesn't point to knowing anything of the No-God. If they knew of it, they'd have tried to use it, and even if they did knew and did try to make it work, it never turned on, so I'm sure they long since abandoned it.

No. The No-God was new to Earwa.

That's not all what I interpret. I see this as Eärwa literally being special, which is also probably the reason why Ark crashed. Something about this world sets it apart from the rest of the universe. They used the No-God on other worlds, but were unable to shut off the Outside. Also, take Bakkers comment about the No-God and e.g. Kelmomas:
"And lastly, it's not the blood that enables the Carapace, its the ability of the brain to functionally emulate that of an original Insertant." How would there be an original Insertant if Ark didn't know about the No-God? It was an extension of itself, as the Mutilated also mention.

[Wilshire]

That's not all what I interpret. I see this as Eärwa literally being special,

agreed. I'm not arguing that Earwa isn't special, but that they likely thought every one was special - else why bother exterminating them.

which is also probably the reason why Ark crashed.

Could be. No issues there.

Something about this world sets it apart from the rest of the universe.

Right, that's pretty obvious.

They used the No-God on other worlds,

No idea how you got to that conclusion.

but were unable to shut off the Outside.

Right.

Also, take Bakkers comment about the No-God and e.g. Kelmomas:
"And lastly, it's not the blood that enables the Carapace, its the ability of the brain to functionally emulate that of an original Insertant."

Did he say original "insertant"? I thought he said original creators. Doesn't matter though:

How would there be an original Insertant if Ark didn't know about the No-God? It was an extension of itself, as the Mutilated also mention.

You answered your own question. The Ark is the No-God, but something something Earwa short circuited it. The Ark was the original insertant, in that, the Ark was basically the original no-god. The Sarcophagus is a stripped down version that can move around without using all the power of several suns. ... In essence, we're both right?

The No-God needed something to approximate the Ark brain so it could move around without the ark directing it ... directly. My present guess is that the ark via neuropuncture took a brain that was close enough, did some rewiring to approximate itself, and sent its baby out into the word to kill all humans.

I maintain that the Inchoroi didn't know anything of the No-God. They're a dumb weapon race with little idea of what the Ark was doing or wanted. Shae and the Consult created the No-God as we know it. Shae being a big key here, as he was smarter than all the living inchoroi, and apparently smarter than most any man in history save the dunyain. I assume given that the original NG had the chorae, that it was a tekne creation.

At any rate, imo the inoculation was a bioweapon the inchoroi made with the tekne.
The womb plague was something different related to the rise of the no-god.

[TLEILAXU]

Did he say original "insertant"? I thought he said original creators. Doesn't matter though:

How would there be an original Insertant if Ark didn't know about the No-God? It was an extension of itself, as the Mutilated also mention.

You answered your own question. The Ark is the No-God, but something something Earwa short circuited it. The Ark was the original insertant, in that, the Ark was basically the original no-god. The Sarcophagus is a stripped down version that can move around without using all the power of several suns. ... In essence, we're both right?

The No-God needed something to approximate the Ark brain so it could move around without the ark directing it ... directly. My present guess is that the ark via neuropuncture took a brain that was close enough, did some rewiring to approximate itself, and sent its baby out into the word to kill all humans.

I maintain that the Inchoroi didn't know anything of the No-God. They're a dumb weapon race with little idea of what the Ark was doing or wanted. Shae and the Consult created the No-God as we know it. Shae being a big key here, as he was smarter than all the living inchoroi, and apparently smarter than most any man in history save the dunyain. I assume given that the original NG had the chorae, that it was a tekne creation.

At any rate, imo the inoculation was a bioweapon the inchoroi made with the tekne.
The womb plague was something different related to the rise of the no-god.

He did say Insertant. Also, here's a quote from the Unholy Consultation thread.

I don't have a question prepared on short notice, so the first thing that comes to mind is to ask about Ark.  It was my presumption that the No-God apparatus (the sarcophagus) functioned differently before Ark-fall.  My supposition would be then that while Ark was fully functional, the souls of the Progenitors would have been contained therein, meaning that on other worlds, it would have been unnecessary to find a suitable surrogate.  Of course, the presumption then would be that what makes a soul a suitable alternative is not specifically Anisûrimbor blood, but rather similarity to the Progenitors.  Could this be an accurate summation?

Plug and play, basically. Having lost the original store of circuits, the Consult had no choice but to keep rummaging through the heap the World provided. The Anasurimbor, for whatever reason, have proven apt historically.

I take this to mean Ark produced these circuits to power the carapace. Also, if the No-God wasn't known then why wouldn't Bakker refute it in this quote? And why would the mutilated consider the Object i.e. the Carapace and extension of the Ark's will if the Object and the No-God arising when an insertant is inserted were unknown to it?

Shae's genius was somehow figuring either that the Carapace needed to be restored for success, and/or how to restore it, aside from the missing circuit-connector.

Yes I agree that the womb-plague was a separate thing, a coincidence that helped reduce the number of souls toward that 144k goal.

[Wilshire]

He did say Insertant.

Fair enough.

Also, if the No-God wasn't known then why wouldn't Bakker refute it in this quote?

That's not a rabbit hole I care to go down. Bakker said what he said. Speculating on his intent and his reasons doesn't interest me, sorry.

And why would the mutilated consider the Object i.e. the Carapace and extension of the Ark's will if the Object and the No-God arising when an insertant is inserted were unknown to it?

What TUC's consult know, is not what The Consult of past know, nor is the Old Consult the same as the Inchoroi. The Inchoroi just did what they were told and knew very little of anything.

Shae's genius was somehow figuring out the No-God needed to be restored.

That it incorporated a bunch of chorae makes me believe it had something specific to do with Earwa/Magic/Consult. I realize that contradicts what I said earlier -
 I just think it took Shae and all his understanding to invent it.Maybe the Dunyain improved on the design to make it work properly with the boostrapped chorae version...

There might be a quote somewhere that mentions the Consult discovering plans for the no god in the ship...

Yes I agree that the womb-plague was a separate thing, a coincidence that helped reduce the number of souls toward that 144k goal.

That was mostly to close out the other conversation with MSJ, but I'm glad someone agrees with me though .

[MSJ]

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1865.0

I don't how you Can't get that from his answers and the question. My perspective, I mean. I can't see it any other way, that's just me though.

[SmilerLoki]

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1865.0

I don't how you Can't get that from his answers and the question. My perspective, I mean. I can't see it any other way, that's just me though.

I originally interpreted that post of Bakker the same way you do, but now I also see that it can be interpreted to mean that the No-God existed previously and served the purpose of reducing any living population to the 144k, and so without it the Inchoroi of old needed some cruder methods of committing genocides. And lo and behold, the Womb Plague.

I honestly can't tell which interpretation is more likely considering the information available, so this is probably the point when we find ourselves requiring additional clarification from Bakker.

[TaoHorror]

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1865.0

I don't how you Can't get that from his answers and the question. My perspective, I mean. I can't see it any other way, that's just me though.

I originally interpreted that post of Bakker the same way you do, but now I also see that it can be interpreted to mean that the No-God existed previously and served the purpose of reducing any living population to the 144k, and so without it the Inchoroi of old needed some cruder methods of committing genocides. And lo and behold, the Womb Plague.

I honestly can't tell which interpretation is more likely considering the information available, so this is probably the point when we find ourselves requiring additional clarification from Bakker.

I summon and he returns! Missed you, SL!

Before all of this rich discussion - I had the (mis)understanding TNG was was part of the plan all along ( i.e. was used in other worlds ). But I agree with Wilshire, they probably ( were all told ) every world they eradicated was special per his point.

Now after reading through all of this, I see hints/evidence from Baker, et al that either could be possible. Even the original insertant reference could be stretched to still refer to someone from Earwa before NC ... by all appearances, to me, it seems TNG was used throughout the galaxy, it broke on its way into Earwa with the "original insertant" no longer living, they repair TNG and then find a lucky candidate to power/use it. A big question is why NC and Kel resembled those candidates. Just random luck? Someone goosing their souls on the way in?

[MSJ]

Now after reading through all of this, I see hints/evidence from Baker, et al that either could be possible. Even the original insertant reference could be stretched to still refer to someone from Earwa before NC ...

Not buying that.

by all appearances, to me, it seems TNG was used throughout the galaxy, it broke on its way into Earwa with the "original insertant" no longer living, they repair TNG and then find a lucky candidate to power/use it.

Imho, this is what most assuredly happened. Aurax and Aurang are the sole survivors of a technology advanced race. They weren't in charge of the Tekne or the NG. They didn't even understand it. Thats why it took so long to ressurect and needed the aide of Shae. Its also why I took Bakker's answer to mean they "found" a way to accomplish at least part of the NG's function. As I said, I don't see what else you can take away from that Q&A.

[SmilerLoki]

I summon and he returns! Missed you, SL!

Thank you for the kind words! I wasn't gone, I just wasn't posting. I'm actually an accomplished lurker.

[FoolishOwl]

It occurred to me while listening to Scott on this podcast:
http://www.stufftoblowyourmind.com/podcasts/consciousness-and-consult.htm
that Drusas Achamian is (assuming he survived the Second Apocalypse) the most powerful sorcerer left alive on humanity's side in the Three Seas and will be the de facto leader of humanity in the war against the Unholy Consult and the forces of the No-God.  So far leadership has not been his forte.  How do you assess his chances?  Do any of us expect him to rise to the challenge?

As you say, Drusus Achamian's forte isn't leadership, so I don't think he will the leader of humanity in the Second Apocalypse. I think that role will be filled by Esmenet, with the support of Drusus and Mimara.

Esmenet, after all, is still the Empress. She held court for years, and we were told repeatedly that Kellhus chose her for her great intellect.

[MSJ]

As you say, Drusus Achamian's forte isn't leadership, so I don't think he will the leader of humanity in the Second Apocalypse. I think that role will be filled by Esmenet, with the support of Drusus and Mimara.

Esmenet, after all, is still the Empress. She held court for years, and we were told repeatedly that Kellhus chose her for her great intellect.

On the surface it might seem that way, not so sure. For one, Akka has become, or rather is a very powerful sorcerer. And, it's the Apocalypse, there will be no court held. Leadership will come to those with power. After the Great Ordeal, whose left but Akka? Also, Akka holds all the knowledge of the First Apocalypse, which I imagine would be very helpful. His arc seems to mirror what we're told of Seswatha. Maybe not the leader, but a major player, nonetheless.

[TaoHorror]

As you say, Drusus Achamian's forte isn't leadership, so I don't think he will the leader of humanity in the Second Apocalypse. I think that role will be filled by Esmenet, with the support of Drusus and Mimara.

Esmenet, after all, is still the Empress. She held court for years, and we were told repeatedly that Kellhus chose her for her great intellect.

On the surface it might seem that way, not so sure. For one, Akka has become, or rather is a very powerful sorcerer. And, it's the Apocalypse, there will be no court held. Leadership will come to those with power. After the Great Ordeal, whose left but Akka? Also, Akka holds all the knowledge of the First Apocalypse, which I imagine would be very helpful. His arc seems to mirror what we're told of Seswatha. Maybe not the leader, but a major player, nonetheless.

A major player, the major player, but my chips are on Serwa to lead the resistance. And/or Moe Jr.

[MSJ]

A major player, the major player, but my chips are on Serwa to lead the resistance. And/or Moe Jr.

I think Moe Jr. is a very logical choice. Seeing his father wade through the hoard, turn into a God, then turn to dust, pretty much seals his authority over the People. The Consult was going to take them out, remember? Cnaüir learned this when he didn't do as he should and join battle (you can never convince me that that The Many-Blooded wasnt just as smart as Kellhus and much more interesting.) - War is intellect. Moe can convince the People to fight, and will hopefully. He grew up around Kellhus, had the skill at War, I think he's a lot smarter than depicted, imho.

Serwa is dead. There just isn't any better ending to her story. Another Cnaüir is just an old dog doing old tricks.

[SmilerLoki]

Serwa is dead. There just isn't any better ending to her story. Another Cnaüir is just an old dog doing old tricks.

I, too, think it's a great ending, and Serwa is what passes for my favorite character in TSA. Right now, her story has everything, it doesn't need anything more.