[Cuttlefish]

Yes, Mathenet was one of the few. Few recognizes the few.

Ahem, at the risk of going further off-topic, I dug the scene out:

"But before any word could be spoken, hands guided the Prince, still staring, to one side, and Achamian found himself looking into the serene and surprisingly youthful face of Maithanet. The multitudes roared, but an uncanny hush had settled between the two of them. The Shriah’s face darkened, but his blue eyes glittered with . . . with . . . He spoke softly, as though to an intimate: “Your kind are not welcome here, friend. Flee.” And Achamian fled. Would a crow wage war upon a lion? And throughout the pinched madness of his struggle through the hosts of Inrithi, he was transfixed by a single thought: He can see the Few. Only the Few could see the Few."

Now, consider the fact that Achamian doesn't know about the Dunyain and their talents. Even though he was Worldborn, Maithanet could read faces well; he exposed the spies of the Emperor, he exposed skin-spies. It is entirely possible that he knew Achamian was of the Few because he could read it from his face, and Achamian, unaware that it was possible, thought he must be of the Few.

[MSJ]

My opinion is B. It was the imagination of a dying father.

[MSJ]

No, it explicitly stated in the text that Maithanet can see the few and even Proyas knows this. Ain't got time but if you need me to I will quote.

[Wilshire]

No, it explicitly stated in the text that Maithanet can see the few and even Proyas knows this. Ain't got time but if you need me to I will quote.

Some confusion is going on here so lets slow down a bit.

Can the Few see the Few?
Kind of ... let me explain. The Few can see the Mark - this is why there are tests, like the Wathi doll, that schoolmen use to recruit new practitioners (normally children). You aren't marked until you actually use magic.
Remember that Achamian was shocked when Kellhus told him he could see the Onta, and further shocked when he was able to awaken the Wathi doll. If "the Few can see the Few" such a thing would have been obvious. So, no the Few can't see that other's are able to see the Onta, what they can see is if they have used magic and have the mark.

Was Maithanet of the Few?
It actually might not have been explicitly stated but its heavily implied.  Its of little consequence as he doesn't use magic.

How did Moenghus know Kellhus would be of the Few?

The dunyain use educated guessing - they are not omnipotent. That's why its called the Probability Trance, and the thing with probabilities is that sometimes things happen that are unlikely.
Moenghus knew that he himself was of the few (obviously) and likely surmised that there was either a genetic component of it (there is), a training/physical competent, that it was a mark of intelligence, or some weird combination of all these things. Given any of that, or all, or some of each, either way he guessed that any son of his but most any dunyain as well would be one of the Few. To answer your question, did he know? Of course not. He didn't walk up to Ishual, have a chat, run some tests on his son, etc. He made an educated guess.
The whole thing you guys are getting into with dreams is only tangentially relevant. Yes, both sender and receiver must be of the Few. I could be wrong, but I don't think Moenghus sent dreams to Kellhus. Part of the trouble with that method is you must know the location of the reciever - my guess is that the Pragma and other Leaders tended to sleep in the same place while the other peons did not. Moe sent dreams to everyone that he could find, shotgun approach to make sure the message was delivered.

Did Moenghus' plans demand Kellhus was a schoolman?
Hard to say. My guess is that they would have worked up through Shimeh regardless, so it doesn't matter. Kellhus didn't really need, or use, magic until he killed Moenghus - which I assume was not part of Moenghus' plan (that's a whole different debate though). Keep in mind Moenghus died because he got the probabilities wrong, just like Maithanet, just like Kellhus. The Anasurimbor, the Dunyain, have a long history of guessing wrong and their plans ending in catastrophic failure - they make mistakes.

Did TTT demand that Kellhus was of the Few?
Depends. Whose TTT? Moenghus'? Probably not, Moenghus was going to unite with his son and unite the world. Kellhus'? Yeah, probably, but I would imagine that if he wasn't of the Few he would have either devised a different plan or simply been subsumed by Moenghus. Non-Magi Kellhus is much less impressive.



Hope that clears things up.

Re: NC - There's no reason anything has to have meaning. Yes, its a fantasy book, but every word and event is not suffused with importance. This book/series specifically has red herrings all over the place. Its perfectly valid to assume something is as it appears. Not saying its right, just that "because its a book" isn't any better reasoning to pick or discard a possibility.
That said, I'm also aware my opinion on this particular subject makes for an uninteresting conversation, so I'll just watch as other's hash it out. If I think of anything exciting to contribute either way, I will of course interject .

I think sometimes we get caught up in debating right vs. wrong (my theory vs. your theory), instead of agreeing to a shared set of assumptions for a topic and seeing where it takes us _{(I'm probably more guilty than anyone of that)}. It might be more revealing if we could say "hey, for this topic, lets assume X is true. How does that affect the world if it is?", instead of needing to debate X every single time.

Great topic btw, turned into a fun thread.

[SmilerLoki]

But how did Moenghus know that Kellhus was one of the Few?

So far I think it's important to note that of the four full-blooded Dunyain Anasurimbors (Moenghus Sr., Kellhus, Koringhus, and the Boy) three are confirmed as being of the Few (Moenghus Sr., Kellhus, and Koringhus). I'm not sure about the Boy, though. I want to say that he's also one of the Few, but I actually don't remember anything indicating that, at least at the moment.

Also interesting is the fact that Moenghus Sr., Kellhus, and Koringhus represent a direct genealogical line. If the Boy is of the Few, then this goes far beyond simple coincidence.

[Wilshire]

Beginning any statement with 'Bakker has said' is irritating and suspect, but, well ... he did say: that there is a genetic component, a heritability, in Seeing the Onta, though it is stronger in Nonmen than it is in men. He also said that that the Dunyain breeding program has incidentally selected for traits that make it more likely for one to be of the Few.

Note that Men are likely very unaware of this heritability because Schoolmen of all schools are forbidden wives, so its not like they have been tracking the phenomenon.

Given the occurrence of Sight of the Onta in the general population, even disregarding Bakker's insight, its pretty clear that there seems to be a LOT of people in the Anasurimbor line that can See.

Likely, as I said prior, that someone of Dunyain intellect would figure that it was genetic in some way, and/or possibly occurs with a specific kind of training, and/or a byproduct of intelligence, all of which were in favor of Kellhus being of the Few. If not Kellhus, well, he'd get the job done up through Shimeh and then Moenghus would have the power to reach back to Shimeh with a cohort of Mandati (he'd tell them of the Consult and be their savior even if Kellhus wasn't able to weild the gnosis) and a legion of men, and select from them another person to be his uber-schoolman.

[MSJ]

Kellhus did receive a dream from Moe at Ishual.

ETA: sorry, I'll elaborate ad quote when I have time. Its in the book.

[MSJ]

He rose, blinked against the firelight. As with so many questions regarding his mission, the answer was incalculable. “Shimeh,” Kellhus said at length. “A city far to the south called Shimeh.” “He sent for you from Shimeh? But how’s that possible?” Kellhus adopted a faintly bewildered look that was not far from true. “Through dreams. He sent for me through dreams.” “Sorcery . . .”

Before this, Kellhus went into the PT to be sure wether telling Leweth the truth would hurt his mission. And, somewhere it says that all who had received the dreams sans Kellhus committed suicide. Moe, knew Kellhus was of the few, simple deduction

[Wilshire]

sans Kellhus

Well, in all fairness that quote doesn't elucidate the issue. Its true that he was sent to Shimeh by his fathers via sorcery, but he doesn't claim to have received the dreams themselves right there (from that quote at least, might happen before/after/whenever). If there really is a part that says that everyone who got the dream went to TTT except Kellhus, that'd be proof enough. Like I said, I don't remember either way, but fwiw I believe you.

Anyway, the greater point definitely stands: if Moenghus sent Kellhus dreams then he knew Kel was one of the Few.

Btw, it always seemed to me that when Achamian is calling Atyersus that he does do some hunting around in the dream-space to find the right dreamer. Like that once you get to the right building in the real world, you can zero in on the exact person … I dunno. Dream walking, or whatever they call it, is a strange subject - and I'm not sure I have a point to that lol.

[MSJ]

I know I could find the quote if I chose to. But, thats really besides the point.

If Moe sent dreams back to Ishual it would stand to reason that he had to walk his little dream world to see those that he could even send to, right? Kellhus is who he wants, needs to convince. Why wouldn't he be one of those who received the dreams? While in Ishual, Moe knew nothing of the few. He had to guess, or rather as you say, walk the dream world to know who would hear him. Logic alone, tells you Kellhus received the dreams, along with the text.

[MSJ]

TDTCB

Distant figures filed between the battlements before disappearing behind stone—the elder Dûnyain abandoning their vigil. They would wind down the mighty staircases, Kellhus knew, and one by one enter the darkness of the Thousand Thousand Halls, the great Labyrinth that wheeled through the depths beneath Ishuäl. There they would die, as had been decided. All those his father had polluted. I’m alone. My mission is all that remains.

He alone remained...... I know Wilshire its not specifically stated. But, along with my other quote and your dream walking theory, I am of the opinion that Kellhus was sent dreams. There's a layer quote where he talks about seeing war and such. I am 99% sure Kellhus was one of the original of those sent dreams.

[Wilshire]

Eh, I think he needed Kellhus either way - Few or not.
Personally, it's probably that Kellhus was the only one he figured he could 'convince' the dunyain to release.
Either way, he had to send dreams to a bunch of people so that they didn't just think "welp, that one broke, into the unmasking room with him".
But yes, given the dream sending, Moenghus certainly knew Kellhus was of the Few.

Thanks for the additional quote .

[MSJ]

]Eh, I think he needed Kellhus either way - Few or not.

Explain that to me. Because, I don't think that is the truth at all. Matter of fact, we know from their talk at kyudea, that isn't the case.

Moe, knew he screwed up by picking the Psukhe. He could not wield the power needed to defeat the Consult. Thats why he sent for Kellhus and made sure Akka was there to be his tutor. What good would Kellhus be without the Gnosis? I am.fairly certain they would've lost at Shimeh, let alone at having a chance against the Consult.

Back to Maithanet Nd him being of the few. He seen Akka because of his Mark. He is also the leader of the Thousand Temples which would never have a leader who used sorcery. But, it was conman knowledge that Maithanet could see the few. He was one of them. Nuat like the College of Luthemaye (sp).

[MSJ]

Plenty of quotes here from Kyudea, that suggest Moe needed Kellhus the sorcerer in order to enact the TT.

“So you assumed taking up the Water would be no different, that becoming one of the Indara-Kishauri would make you godlike in comparison. And since the Cishaurim themselves scarcely understand the metaphysics of their practice, there was nothing you could learn that would contradict this assumption. You couldn’t know that the Psûkhe was a metaphysic of the heart, not the intellect. Of passion … “So you let them blind you, only to find your powers proportionate to your vestigial passions. What you thought to be the Shortest Path was in fact a dead end.”

If Moe hadn't chose the Psukhe, not knowing that the weaknesses the Dunyain do have, he would have never needed Kellhus.

“Of course, you had heard of the Consult,” Kellhus continued, ignoring his question. “And like most in the Three Seas, you thought them long dead—the stuff of Mandate delusions. But the stories you extracted from your captives … there was too much consistency, too much detail, for them to be fabrications.“The deeper you probed, the more troubling the story became. You had read The Sagas, and you had doubted them, thinking them too fanciful. Destroying the world? No malice could be so great. No soul could be so deranged. After all, what could be gained? Who follows paths over precipices? “But the skin-spies explained it all. Speaking in shrieks and howls, they taught you the why and wherefore of the Apocalypse. You learned that the boundaries between the World and the Outside were not fixed, that if the World could be cleansed of enough souls, it could be sealed shut. Against the Gods. Against the heavens and the hells of the Afterlife. Against redemption. And, most importantly, against the possibility of damnation."

This quote is two-fold in answering some question. Celmommian Prophecy. I believe it was widely known and at least part of the reason Mandati were taking to be fools. It also shows that Moe knew all about it and needed the strongest sorcerer alive to contest them.

“When did you realize you didn’t possess the strength,” Kellhus asked, “that more was needed to avert the No-God’s second coming?” “From the very first I recognized that it was probable,” Moënghus said. “But I spent years assessing the possibilities, gathering knowledge. When the first of the Thought came to me, I was quite unprepared.”

Another clue he needed a super human sorcerer, Kellhus.

“Only a true son of Ishuäl could succeed,” his father continued. “For all the Thousandfold Thought’s innumerable deductions, for all its elegance, there remained countless variables that could not be foreseen. Each of its folds possesses a haze of catastrophic possibilities, most of them remote, others nearly certain. I would have abandoned it long ago, were not the consequences of inaction so absolute. “Only one of the Conditioned could follow its path. Only you, my son.”

“No. You were the only path.”

Defense rests its case.

[Wilshire]

Crap, forgot to post this yesterday - it address much of what you posted:

The primary pitfall of the puske for Moenghus was that he had to blind himself. Because of this, he lost most of the advantage that the dunyain training gave him. That issue was compounded by his inability to actually properly use it. This mistake was what lead to him needing another Dunyain in the first place.

Because of that, he needed some other full blooded Dunyain to unite the three seas.
Once the holy war was over and a Dunyain crowed as Emperor, Moenghus could have then gone on to part 2 of this plan to save the world.

What was needed was Kellhus the place - meaning a Dunyain to forcibly unite and hold together the Three Seas long enough to mount the Great Ordeal and attack/defeat Golgotterath.

From Moenghus' point of view, Kellhus the man was just a cog in the wheel. That position could have been occupied by any other Dunyain, though I do think that place needed to be a Few Dunyain that could use sorcery properly.

From Moenghus' POV, there was nothing inherently special about Kellhus, was there?

“No. You were the only path.”

Thanks for pulling all those quotes. Very helpful . Shit, I need to go back and read that - such a good scene, the end of TTT.

This quote though, is it clear why?

I specifically didn't mention TTT up till here for a reason, because there's definitely a difference between Moenghus' version and Kellhus', and I think it adds a lot of confusion.

For Moenghus, he couldn't see the whole picture, just that there was a shaping of events that needed to take place.The reason Moenghus picked Kellhus is unclear - it could be that no matter how he computed the TT the Dunyain he needed was Kellhus. I still say that what Moenghus was someone to fill the role of Kellhus and it could have been anyone that fit thse parameters - with the possability that Kellhus was the only one available at the time that Moenghus knew of that could have done it.