[TUC Spoilers] How did the Inchoroi come think Earwa was the promised land?

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Jabberwock03

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« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2018, 02:54:02 pm »
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I'm not so sure about that. According to Ajokli, the Outside is infinite and cannot be shut (obviously wrong), so what the Inchoroi think they are doing is pretty irrelevant (to Ajokli).

What matters is what the IF makes them do. Its the method they are using that's important, and that method gets him trillions of more souls with their actions, as opposed to none with inaction.
But this is the crux, Ajokli cannot motivate a mission he cannot see.
I'm saying his goal was getting more souls, which the IF does perfectly.

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It says 'my house'...
Ajokli's house is hell.
Right. So the IF just happens to show Ajokli's outside, not the outside of all the other Gods.

Far, far too convenient to be even slightly plausible for TSA, imo. THough I realize we've reached an impasse here - hopefully someone else can help us out :)

I don't read it like that. The IF show you your own fate. So when Kellhus/Ajokli watch it, of course he says "Woooh neat, it's home!".
And we know most of people watching it aren't especially nice people, so it make sens they see their damnation (plus, it look like everyone except 2 or 3 characters in Earwa are damned).
I guess if Mimara watched it, she would see heaven.

Wilshire

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« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2018, 03:09:04 pm »
What does 'not nice' have to do with anything? There are lots of gods with lots of different afterlives. I would expect, for example, a masterful warloard to see a heaven equivalent 'Valhalla' type afterlife with Gilgaol, but the worst kind of 'Hell' if taken by Yatwer, and everyone regardless of who they are would see 'Hell' if seeing Ajokli.

The idea that every single lifeform that has seen the IF through millennia sees the exact same afterlife, and that it just happens to be Ajokli's, is just silly to assume that its completely coincidental.

I'd expect Mimara to see the same thing as everyone else - because its simply a window into Ajokli's House. If Mimara was taken to Ajokli's Outside, she'd be in hell, but I presume another god (or The God?) would take her before that.

We know the outside is complex. Its filled with beings that see all time, that literally make their own realities within their domain. They compete with eachother for souls, and the rules are different depending on where one ends up (Heaven for a Yatwer aligned soul would be in Hell if Gilgaol took them). We know that there is Oblivion, and the Ciphrang factor in there somewhere. That the IF shows only one view of the Outside, the same view, to every single entity that sees it, points rather plainly to it being something other than what the Inchoroi believe it to be.
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Jabberwock03

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« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2018, 03:14:52 pm »
We only have the words of damned people watching it AFAIK (some nonmen, Kellhus/Ajokli, sorcerers, Inchorois), and the glossary which is not 100% trustable. Maybe not all the prisoners saw hell.

Wilshire

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« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2018, 03:25:59 pm »
We only have the words of damned people watching it AFAIK (some nonmen, Kellhus/Ajokli, sorcerers, Inchorois), and the glossary which is not 100% trustable. Maybe not all the prisoners saw hell.
Certainly we've only heard recounting of hell - reinforced by the surprise of everyone in the Golden Room when Kellhus doesn't see himself tortured, though he's still in the same place as everyone else.

Causality is another issue here, since we're talking about the Outside. Looking into the IF might simply tie your fate to Ajokli's Outside. Chicken and egg scenario though so I'll leave that path alone.
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Jabberwock03

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« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2018, 03:34:53 pm »
Wait & see then :p ! Maybe Bakker will provide an answer in the next books.

Wilshire

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« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2018, 04:05:54 pm »
Wait & see then :p ! Maybe Bakker will provide an answer in the next books.

lol. No, I am long since beyond that particular horizon of hope. I'm satisfied with my nonsense - its internally consistent and matches my headcannon.

The only disappointment comes from not being able to bring more into my tribe ;) , but that's OK because you guys let me stick around anyway. I can yet work on sharpening the edges of my blunt persuasive armaments.
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2018, 05:33:03 pm »
Would be nice if some of the lurkers weighed in on this! Duskweaver, H, Bolivar, Red, merchant, mostly.harmless, MisterGuyMan, Woden,  Walter, Tyrin, Nil Sertrax, Anwurat, Rot, James, CondYoke, jurble, Hiro, Kamakazikitteh, Hoary, Walter, TheCulminatingApe, Callan S., Wolfdrop, Wiseblood, Ciogli, Seomus, codebread, Bhaal, obstinate, Baztek, Likaro, Punkhazard, locke, fecklessfool, Triskele, Dunkelheit, spacemost and yeah, you too Cüréthañ ... WHAT IS THE INVERSE FIRE? Complete write up on your take on the metaphysical Earwa is requested.

Cû'jara-Cinmoi - the most unholy of The Consult, are welcome to join this discussion.
May your death be soon, slow and painful

MSJ

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« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2018, 05:43:50 pm »
Quote from:  TLEILAXU
It's actually funny how often this happens. MSJ not being willing to relinquish of the e-sports thing or his insistence that I be killed because he blended together mine and your arguments in that thread, and being unwilling to change his mind or read the words in any other way. Likewise, you have a hard time letting go of wrong fan theories,

Don't throw me into your fights I want no part of. Blindspots, pfft! Speakk for yourself! ;)
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MSJ

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« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2018, 05:47:42 pm »
The IF is a window into hell, used as a goad by the progenitors. They found it somehow, or rather created it. Its what started their mission to decimate worlds til finding the promise land. Its shows your hell, not Ajokli's.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2018, 06:27:05 pm »
What does 'not nice' have to do with anything? There are lots of gods with lots of different afterlives. I would expect, for example, a masterful warloard to see a heaven equivalent 'Valhalla' type afterlife with Gilgaol, but the worst kind of 'Hell' if taken by Yatwer, and everyone regardless of who they are would see 'Hell' if seeing Ajokli.

The idea that every single lifeform that has seen the IF through millennia sees the exact same afterlife, and that it just happens to be Ajokli's, is just silly to assume that its completely coincidental.

I'd expect Mimara to see the same thing as everyone else - because its simply a window into Ajokli's House. If Mimara was taken to Ajokli's Outside, she'd be in hell, but I presume another god (or The God?) would take her before that.

We know the outside is complex. Its filled with beings that see all time, that literally make their own realities within their domain. They compete with eachother for souls, and the rules are different depending on where one ends up (Heaven for a Yatwer aligned soul would be in Hell if Gilgaol took them). We know that there is Oblivion, and the Ciphrang factor in there somewhere. That the IF shows only one view of the Outside, the same view, to every single entity that sees it, points rather plainly to it being something other than what the Inchoroi believe it to be.
That's not exactly how it works though. You're either damned or not, with the vast majority of people being damned. If a particular God likes you, you get into their heaven, but otherwise you're thrown into the pit. Gilgaöl would not take a soul aligned for Yatwer, he only takes the best of the best of bloodthirsty, noble warriors. Mimara would most likely see herself saved somehow, although we cannot rule out that the very act of gazing into the Inverse Fire brings damnation in itself.

Wilshire

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« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2018, 06:34:43 pm »
The IF is a window into hell
This is magic. How, in Earwaverse, can a mundance object made by non-magi without the knowledge or ability to use magic, make something that is so very obviously Magical?
, used as a goad by the progenitors.
It goaded the progenitors as well. So, who is doing the goading. Ajokli is the only entity that makes sense.


They found it somehow, or rather created it.
Again, magic. A race of entities that didn't know of, or believe in, an afterlife, or God, or the Outside, somehow made a mundane object, without magic, that let them open up a window into an entire metaphysical reality?

That's a lot of coincidences to ignore.


 Its what started their mission to decimate worlds til finding the promise land. Its shows your hell, not Ajokli's.
We don't know what it shows other than its consistent for literally everything that looks into it.
We know for sure that the Outside is more complex than "Oh look everyone is damned and Ajokli is the ruler of everything!"

The only logical explanation is that what people/things think the IF is showing, (which happens to be what the Inchoroi tell them) is simply inaccurate.

The IF has suspiciously Diamotic origins akin to Kellhus's journey to Ajokli's Hell.
It's also suspiciously similar to Kellhus' Seeing Fire thing.
I don't see how its possible that the proginators made a device so strangely similar to the magic that we see in Earwa.

To me, in Earwa there's a pretty distinct line between mundane and magical - or physical and metaphysical. You're either dealing with Souls and Gods, or you're dealing with people and their works. I see no room for something that is purely tekne making something that interacts with the magical, and no way for the proginators to have created such a thing. It requires intervention directly from Ajokli or some other metaphysical entity to exist.

That's not exactly how it works though. You're either damned or not, with the vast majority of people being damned.
Granted, that appears to be the case, but we don't know what being damned is, or what it means, or how it works with all the variety of movers in the Outside.

If a particular God likes you, you get into their heaven,
Gilgaol reached down and saved at least 1 person in TUC.
But Mimara saw nothing but damned people when walking through the camp.
So what does that mean? It means we don't know what damnation is. The saved gentleman would surely have been an obvious spot of Holy Light amidst the turely damned - but none was apparent.
How can you be damned and saved? Because we don't know how either works. So then what does the IF even show us? It shows us exactly what Ajokli says: it shows a person's fate in his house. Quite simply, its a tool for Ajokli.

but otherwise you're thrown into the pit. Gilgaöl would not take a soul aligned for Yatwer, he only takes the best of the best of bloodthirsty, noble warriors.
All the Gods hunger. I imagine they don't just take the souls they want to reward with some kind of Heaven. They need souls to eat and torture as well.

Mimara would most likely see herself saved somehow, although we cannot rule out that the very act of gazing into the Inverse Fire brings damnation in itself.
Nothing to really go for or against what Mimara would see. IMO, she tends to see what she wants - but that's another discussion.
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2018, 07:40:24 pm »
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Again, magic. A race of entities that didn't know of, or believe in, an afterlife, or God, or the Outside, somehow made a mundane object, without magic, that let them open up a window into an entire metaphysical reality?
Why would they not know about it? They had time to plumb the metaphysics of the universe. A fundamental premise of the World in which this story takes place is that Gods and souls are demonstrably real.

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The only logical explanation is that what people/things think the IF is showing, (which happens to be what the Inchoroi tell them) is simply inaccurate.
That's not a logical explanation lol

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I see no room for something that is purely tekne making something that interacts with the magical, and no way for the proginators to have created such a thing
What about the No-God then, or is a sarcophago swirling around inside a big ass tornado somehow not "magic"?

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Granted, that appears to be the case, but we don't know what being damned is, or what it means, or how it works with all the variety of movers in the Outside.
If it appears to be the case because that's what the story presents it as, it probably is the case though.

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So what does that mean? It means we don't know what damnation is. The saved gentleman would surely have been an obvious spot of Holy Light amidst the turely damned - but none was apparent.
Maybe she just didn't gaze upon him with the Judging Eye, or maybe he was only saved at the last moment, Gilgaöl deciding he wanted him anyway despite the whole Sranc-meat fuelled rape feast.

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« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2018, 08:14:27 pm »
Again, magic. A race of entities that didn't know of, or believe in, an afterlife, or God, or the Outside, somehow made a mundane object, without magic, that let them open up a window into an entire metaphysical reality?

That's a lot of coincidences to ignore.

Wait, wait.  The Progenitors didn't know anything of magic, since (it seems that) it is plausible that the rest of the Universe, sans Eärwa is Anarcane ground.  They did, somehow, manage to figure out that there is an Outside and that souls are real, or at least whatever it is happens to be real enough to damn you for eternity.  I don't follow why you presume that the Outside is magic.  It's as real as the Inside, it just isn't tangible in the same way.  No different than how Space-Time is as real as matter, but not interfacable in the same manner.  The Inverse Fire is an Tekne artifact that allows an interface between a given observer and the substrate that is the Outside (or perhaps through the substrate that is the Outside).

Take the Glossary's explanation: "Subparticular intentional field machine linking individual observational frames of reference to their eternal fate in the Outside."  I don't see why this being a machine is less believable that the bioengineering, the Ark itself, the Sarcophagus, faster than light travel, Skin-Spies or anything else Tekne made and needs to be magic.

For all we know, the Inverse Fire was the pinnacle of Progenitor technology, and we all know that sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
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MSJ

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« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2018, 09:51:11 pm »
Wilshire, but what we have in text is completely different then the theories your offering, huh, one to take huh.

Its explained the progenitors kept advancing til the wanted to reach the absolute or what have you. Through they're inventions the created the IF. They decided to use it as a goad for the weapons races. The progenitors simply trying to save their souls, is all.

All in all, its not Ajokli's. You keep bringing up magic when the progenitors lived on a planet with no such thing. The IF came through means of technology.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2018, 11:59:25 am »
All in all, its not Ajokli's. You keep bringing up magic when the progenitors lived on a planet with no such thing. The IF came through means of technology.

Its impossible for it to be technology. Makes no sense. Its the same reason as to why the folks over at the LHC aren't going to accidentally open up a portal into the afterlife IRL - you don't suddenly make meaning in a meaningless world.

Again, magic. A race of entities that didn't know of, or believe in, an afterlife, or God, or the Outside, somehow made a mundane object, without magic, that let them open up a window into an entire metaphysical reality?

That's a lot of coincidences to ignore.

They did, somehow, manage to figure out that there is an Outside and that souls are real, or at least whatever it is happens to be real enough to damn you for eternity.  I don't follow why you presume that the Outside is magic. 

First, I'm using 'magic' to mean non-mundane. Lets not get bogged down here. I think we're all aware that in Earwa magic is real, so is the outside and the inside, the gods. Come now, lets get beyond semantics.

My premise is that you can't access the Outside/Magic/Souls or deduce them with mundane means - it doesn't fit into the worldbuilding in any way.

Its like this, look at the Dunyain. For all their brilliance, they don't know about the Outside, gods, magic, etc. and they live in a meaningful world. They can never deduce it from their mundane learning/teaching because its not possible. The proginators are basically more advanced Dunyain but so much farther away from a meaningful world. There's just not path to seeing that Gods and Magic are real with teknology and math - if there was, the Dunyain would have figured it out.

Ergo, you can't make something from teknology that lets you discover the Outside, Gods, Magic, etc.

Since its impossible, something needed to happen to make it possible. I assume that no one from Earwa took a trip over to Proginatoria to tell them about our-lord-and-savior-the-latter-prophet. That leaves the Gods - who can see all time for all of the universe and manifest both directly and indirectly in the real world - interceding in some way to allow an otherwise mundane species to discover their souls.

A simple whisper in the back of a mind would be all it took.
A 'mad' man, who had a bit of the outside leak in.
A facility unknowingly built on, or accidentally creating, a topos sufficiently deep enough for a whisper to get through.

Many paths available, none of which break all the rules we know of like we have to is we assume that the IF is truly pure tekne.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 12:04:49 pm by Wilshire »
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