[TUC Spoilers] How did the Inchoroi come think Earwa was the promised land?

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« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2018, 12:01:02 pm »
All in all, its not Ajokli's. You keep bringing up magic when the progenitors lived on a planet with no such thing. The IF came through means of technology.

Yeah, I have a hard time buying "Ajokli all the way down" sort-of theories.

We don't have any idea how the Progenitors happened upon the revelation that the Outside (and so, what appears to be a soul) was real and deterministic.  We could imagine though, that through some quantum mechanical investigation or something similar, it was discovered that there was "more" to the universe.  "Subparticular," in the Inverse Fire's description, could well mean sub-atomic, sub-any particles, which places the Inverse Fire below that of matter.  This could well be what the Outside actually is, the substrate by which all subsequent substrates are substantiated out of.

I am recalling this opening quote from TTT, Chapter 10:
"Souls can no more see the origins of their thought than they can see the backs of their heads or the insides of their entrails. And since souls cannot differentiate what they cannot see, there is a peculiar sense in which the soul cannot self-differentiate. So it is always, in a peculiar sense, the same time when they think, the same place where they think, and the same individual who does the thinking. Like tipping a spiral on its side until only a circle can be seen, the passage of moments always remains now, the carnival of spaces always sojourns here, and the succession of people always becomes me. The truth is, if the soul could apprehend itself the way it apprehended the world—if it could apprehend its origins—it would see that there is no now, there is no here, and there is no me. In other words, it would realize that just as there is no circle, there is no soul."

So, if we accept it's conclusion, that there is no soul, then we must go back to Memgowa's (which, admittedly could be wrong) that there is no now, here or me.  In support of this, we do anecdotally know that the Outside is apart from time, in some way, it also is apart from the spatial map of the world (and maybe the Universe), and in the Outside identity is shorn away.

I've managed to convince myself, here, that the Inverse Fire could have given them view of Ajokli's Hell, and so Ajokli some view of them, but I'm not convinced that it is probable that it was Ajokli that spurred the whole thing on.  The Progenitors knew of damnation and knew of it's implications.  I don't see why we need another agent.



Back to the original question of this thread (I think) was, how did the Inchoroi know that Eärwa was the Promised World.  Well, unforunately, we have no idea.  But, considering that they reduced some large number of worlds to try to find out means that there would seem to be two options.  If we initially presume that the Inchoroi didn't know exactly what to look for, because, if they did, they would not have needed to reduce each world, just simply look for the signs.  Ergo, it is plausible that they didn't know what to look for until they in fact found it.  This means that, somehow, Eärwa appeared (in whatever fashion) differently and so they knew.  In this case, it would seem that Ark failed because it had accomplished what it was intended to, but this is a poor explanation, because it had lasted that long and still (presumably) had an important function, why waste it?

There is also the possibility that they didn't know, pre-Fall.  In fact, they still didn't know post-Fall.  But, the reason Ark failed was exactly because Eärwa was the Promised World.  That is, somehow, whatever powered it, or sustained it, or allowed it to "live" was not able to function on Eärwa.  This would explain why it crashed without intentionality.  Nothing tells us that they knew that Eärwa was the Promised World pre-Fall.  Cleric, a la Wutteät, offers us the idea that Ark was already failing pre-Fall: "Only to arrive here broken and exhausted!" Cleric cried.  "YES—YES!"  Later, Aurang recalls: "He remembered their hallowed vessel faltering upon the shoals of the Promised World[.]"

So, most plausibly, Ark was already failing, for some other reason.  This last Fall seems to have been what killed it.  Now, we can go back and presume that in it's weakened state, perhaps some aspect of Eärwa is what killed it, or we can presume that it just so happened that it happened there.  I don't think the Inchoroi knew though pre-Fall and that calling Eärwa "The Promised World" is a post-hoc rationalization.
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« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2018, 12:17:53 pm »
Its like this, look at the Dunyain. For all their brilliance, they don't know about the Outside, gods, magic, etc. and they live in a meaningful world. They can never deduce it from their mundane learning/teaching because its not possible. The proginators are basically more advanced Dunyain but so much farther away from a meaningful world. There's just not path to seeing that Gods and Magic are real with teknology and math - if there was, the Dunyain would have figured it out.

Ergo, you can't make something from teknology that lets you discover the Outside, Gods, Magic, etc.

I stridently disagree with this.  While I appreciate the logical approach, I think there are several flawed presumptions here that lead to a false conclusion.

Firstly, that the Dûnyain could not have deduced the Outside.  We simply do not know this.  In fact, the Dûnyain, were they not forced into ignorance, probably could have deduced it fairly easily.  Look how quickly Koringhus figures out all sorts of stuff once outside "the bubble."  We have no idea how long the Progenitors spent on the question.  We have no idea what they encountered to know the question to ask.  We have no idea how the Dûnyain would answer such a question in the same position.

Second, that there is no way to deduce the Outside via mundane means.  Again, this presupposes we know the nature of the Outside, which we absolutely do not.  In fact, the best clue might be the Inverse Fire itself, because if the description in the Glossary is accurate, it is a technological device that seems to reveal at least part of the fundamental nature of the Universe.

Third, that a mundane means would have already been discovered by the Dûnyain, which again, presupposes they had the available technology, which, they certainly did not.  The Progenitors, while similar to the Dûnyain, were vastly more technologically advanced, which really throws out the idea that anything the Progenitors did with technology could be reproduced by the Dûnyain.  The Dûnyain didn't discern space-flight, Grafts, soggomant, laser weaponry, and so on.  Clearly, the Progenitors were capable of more and so I find it unbelievable to presume that something is impossible because the Dûnyain didn't do it.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2018, 12:38:07 pm »
Look how quickly Koringhus figures out all sorts of stuff once outside "the bubble."
To me, this is the crux, and exactly my point. Look how easy it was once it was shown by an entity from the Outside. He deduces it only once he has actually seen TJE.

Trivial to deduce once its known, just like all things to the Dunyain, but impossible until then.

Yeah I made some jumps in logic, but its internally consistent with the worldbuilding. Unlike the idea that the IF is tekne. The explanation that actually works using the principles we're aware of makes more sense to me.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 12:39:55 pm by Wilshire »
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2018, 12:40:02 pm »
My premise is that you can't access the Outside/Magic/Souls or deduce them with mundane means - it doesn't fit into the worldbuilding in any way.
I completely disagree. There seems to be a gap in your logic, as evidenced by this quote:
I think we're all aware that in Earwa magic is real, so is the outside and the inside, the gods.
As you stated, the Outside is objectively real in Earwa. Which means it's intrinsically connected to the Inside just as any other part of the Universe is intrinsically connected to every other part. They all exist in the same construct governed by the same laws. But it's even clearer in this case, since the Outside and the Inside are confirmed to interact directly. Even in your presented theory Ajokli needed to reach the Progenitors. And in the books the stated interaction is damnation heaped upon their souls.

In this sense, the Outside is home to the divine, the divine being a form of interaction where intent is be all and end all of action. Sorcery is a form of interaction related to the Outside closely, since it has a timeless aspect that allows what comes after to determine what comes before. Tekne is related more to the Inside, preserving causality more strictly, but the Inside is connected to the Outside, and so is Tekne.

And then there is also the question of anarcane grounds. They are referred to as the opposite of topoi, the places where the Outside "leaks in". Anarcane grounds stop sorcery, and sorcery is closely related to the Outside. Yes, Chorae can also stop sorcery, but by way of sorcery, being more of a short-circuit than a complete block. Anarcane grounds are naturally occurring, unlike sorcery. Would anarcane grounds stop the divine? Would they be on the opposite end of the Outside-Inside scale, hindering the Gods?

Even if it is so, though, the Gods would still exist, which is precisely my point. The connection to the Outside is there, even if it's at its weakest. The Outside is part of the same construct still.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 12:59:06 pm by SmilerLoki »

Wilshire

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« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2018, 12:45:43 pm »
Even if it is so, though, the Gods would still exist, which is precisely my point. The connection to the Outside is there, even if it's at its weakest. The Outside is part of the same construct still.
This is why I'm correct though. The Gods do have influence everywhere, so they are able to reach out to the proginators and show them the way to the Outside. But absent divine intervention, there is nothing the proginators, or the dunyain, could deduce about a world they can't see and don't believe in.

Reall, until the LHC opens up a portal to heaven, there's just no way to convince me that a race of beings who think they live in a meaningless world can find meaning via mundane principles.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2018, 12:48:37 pm »
This is why I'm correct though. The Gods do have influence everywhere, so they are able to reach out to the proginators and show them the way to the Outside. But absent divine intervention, there is nothing the proginators, or the dunyain, could deduce about a world they can't see and don't believe in.
The connection works both ways. This is the gap that I see in your logic.

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« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2018, 01:26:22 pm »
The connection works both ways. This is the gap that I see in your logic.
To me its more a matter of the unlikelihood of a unique event.
 
It works better for me to have the things in Earwa work the way they work - rather than having one off events that are otherwise never seen before or since.

It also seems that the Gods are behind most things - Kellhus, the TJE, Magic, and even the nature of time itself. That the Gods are not involved in the IF, and that the tekne alone was able to manipulate the world in a way that is identical to magic, doesn't fit. The Gods, specifically

Ajokli, being behind it fits well into most of the greater themes of TSA as well: the cyclic nature of time/history, manipulation behind the scenes, creating your own destruction, etc. That it was a fluke one off tekne creation doesn't add anything to the story or fit into the bigger picture in quite the same way.

Appreciate the discussion guys, thanks for humoring me :)
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2018, 01:38:20 pm »
To me its more a matter of the unlikelihood of a unique event.
There is a weakness in this argument, namely the No-God. A creation of Tekne that has a very real effect on the Outside and divine agencies.

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« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2018, 01:53:03 pm »
This is why I'm correct though. The Gods do have influence everywhere, so they are able to reach out to the proginators and show them the way to the Outside. But absent divine intervention, there is nothing the proginators, or the dunyain, could deduce about a world they can't see and don't believe in.

Reall, until the LHC opens up a portal to heaven, there's just no way to convince me that a race of beings who think they live in a meaningless world can find meaning via mundane principles.

Isn't this circular logic though?  You begin with the presumption that only magic can perceive the Outside, ergo, since the Progenitors made the Inverse Fire, they had magic.  But no where do we know how the fundamental structure of the Eärwan universe works, or can be revealed, and our own provides no real basis of comparison.  We have no idea what pinnacle Tekne could discern, because even Ark's (and so the Inchoroi's) brand of Tekne is necessarily derivative.

I think it is a disservice to say that since we don't understand how it is possible to achieve it technologically, when we don't understand the level of technology.  That would be akin to someone from 500 B.C. saying that nuclear power must be magic.  Everything that the Progenitors seemed to make was from the Tekne, so what is more likely, that the Inverse Fire is like the rest, or that the Inverse Fire is magic?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Jabberwock03

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« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2018, 01:57:26 pm »
I don't see why the Progenitors couldn't find the outside without magic.
While they are on anarcane ground, it seems they still managed to notice that something was amiss with their logic. The absolute was eluding them (as for the Dunyain) even with all their tekne after who knows how many centuries.
I think it make sens that they would investigate the question and consider the possibility of a meaningful world.
And even if they don't have access to magic, they still have access to at least one door to the outside : themselve. Maybe the IF is some kind of device powered by progenitors brains and doing Wibbly Wobbly Souley Wimey stuff that open a window to the outside.

That being said, I like the idea that Ajokli made the ARK crash, leading to the events on Earwa, leading to Cnaïur running naked into the srancs, leading to Ajokli own birth! Classic example of self-made god ^^ !

Wilshire

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« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2018, 02:24:46 pm »
To me its more a matter of the unlikelihood of a unique event.
There is a weakness in this argument, namely the No-God. A creation of Tekne that has a very real effect on the Outside and divine agencies.
Right. Again, to my favor - it only works on Earwa with the help of magic. :) . No matter how deep they dug, they found only what they expected until Earwa. The only exception is the IF, so rather than it being an exception, its part of a rule, as described above.

Isn't this circular logic though?  You begin with the presumption that only magic can perceive the Outside, ergo, since the Progenitors made the Inverse Fire, they had magic.
No that's your conclusion shoehorned into my statement. I'm saying they didn't have magic and the only reason they could build the IF was because Ajokli (or any other Outside agency). Ajokli provided the magic, not the progenitors.

But no where do we know how the fundamental structure of the Eärwan universe works, or can be revealed, and our own provides no real basis of comparison.  We have no idea what pinnacle Tekne could discern, because even Ark's (and so the Inchoroi's) brand of Tekne is necessarily derivative.
We have only what's provided, yes.
What's provided doesn't allow for mundane reasoning to unlock the secrets of the magical.

I think it is a disservice to say that since we don't understand how it is possible to achieve it technologically, when we don't understand the level of technology.
I'm not talking about the real world.
The IF acts and works exactly like a lot of magic we see, so its likely some kind of magic (also it doesn't act like any other mundane thing, same conclusion).
Tekne doing magic doesn't fit, so they needed something with magic to help out.
"Outside' intervention seems most likely.
IF as a concept then must have come from Outside.
Ajokli is the most likely prospect and had the most to gain from its creation and use.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 02:28:41 pm by Wilshire »
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2018, 02:34:23 pm »
Right. Again, to my favor - it only works on Earwa with the help of magic. :) . No matter how deep they dug, they found only what they expected until Earwa.
But that's not only conjecture, it's conjecture that straight up contradicts the text. There is utterly no evidence that the No-God is supported by magic. If anything, there is evidence to the contrary, now that the eleven Chorae are removed from the Carapace. And even disregarding that, the mysteries of the Tekne were always cited as the driving force behind the creation of the No-God.

Secondly, we also have the Grafting that bestowed sorcery upon Aurang and Aurax. In total, there were seven Inchoroi that survived that process, if memory serves.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 03:20:55 pm by SmilerLoki »

Wilshire

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« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2018, 03:27:29 pm »
Right. Again, to my favor - it only works on Earwa with the help of magic. :) . No matter how deep they dug, they found only what they expected until Earwa.
But that's not only conjecture
Everything is conjecture ;p;

, it's conjecture that straight up contradicts the text. There is utterly no evidence that the No-God is supported by magic.
Other than what i pointed out you mean, which is the fact that it  only works on Earwa, which just happens to be the only place in the universe that uses magic, and that the Inchoroi couldn't get it working until they had a brilliant Magi working for them.

Conjecture? Sure. But its pretty linear thinking. No logical leaps there at all.

If anything, there is evidence to the contrary, now that the eleven Chorae are removed from the Carapace.
I'd argue that makes magic more likely, not less, considering that removing chorae means more magic can be used - whereas the use of chorae are a special kind of negative-magic that one might argue doesn't count. But irrelevant since the chorae are removed.

And even disregarding that, the mysteries of the Tekne were always cited as the driving force between the creation of the No-God.
Yup. Same as everything above. So strange that despite all their knoweldge they needed bronze-age human to help them figure out how FTL-space-age-tech works.

Seems far more likely he was contributing magical knowledge.

Secondly, we also have the Grafting that bestowed sorcery upon Aurang and Aurax. In total, there were seven Inchoroi that survived that process, if memory serves.
I assume grafting works on mundane knowledge of fancy genetic engineering. Noteworthy that no matter how smart, and born with the ability to see the onta, Kellhus was unable to do sorcery until taught.

To me, genetic manipulation and augmented sensory inputs via technology is mundane in a way that creating energy and matter from nothing and manipulating the world with thoughts is strictly magical. Like being able to change your eyes so that you can see infrared light (mundane) - this doesn't let you control the heat and reverse entropy with your thoughts (magic).

I'd say that the IF is doing magic by opening a window into the outside (in the manner which Kellhus Seeing Fire thing was magical). Its not as if those on Earwa, without using diamotic sorcery, can see into the Outside - though plenty of non-schoolmen can see the Onta. This is confusing territory, as in Earwa there is a fine line between what is physical and what is metaphysical, but I think this explanation is at least internally consistent.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 03:30:37 pm by Wilshire »
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« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2018, 03:41:05 pm »
There is a weakness in this argument, namely the No-God. A creation of Tekne that has a very real effect on the Outside and divine agencies.
Right. Again, to my favor - it only works on Earwa with the help of magic. :) . No matter how deep they dug, they found only what they expected until Earwa. The only exception is the IF, so rather than it being an exception, its part of a rule, as described above.

But they actually expected the opposite.  They knew it wouldn't work everywhere.  They knew they needed to find a place where the exception was the rule.  Just because they, lets say, used highly advanced Quantum Mechanical understanding to realize that the Outside was actual and so that damnation was a fact, doesn't preclude them failing to understand how to produce Arcane Ground as a place where they could exact their plan.

Also, as SmilerLoki points out, we don't know that Sorcery is needed at all to make the Sarcophagus function at all.

No that's your conclusion shoehorned into my statement. I'm saying they didn't have magic and the only reason they could build the IF was because Ajokli (or any other Outside agency). Ajokli provided the magic, not the progenitors.

But you preclude that magic is necessary, even though we have no evidence that this would be the case.  Why is it unlikely that pinnacle level Tekne could not achieve it?  For example, the Ark itself is far more advanced than any other Tekne thing we know of, besides the Sarcophagus, and yet it worked without magic.

We have only what's provided, yes.
What's provided doesn't allow for mundane reasoning to unlock the secrets of the magical.

I don't follow, what is provided that proves that?

We can easily say that the Inverse Fire and the Sarcophagus prove this, if we presume they are Tekne.  But you choose to initially presume they are not, and so disprove this.  Since the Inverse Fire works everywhere though, it kind of goes against it being magic, since if the Inverse Fire and so the Sarcophagus are of the same ilk, it doesn't stand to reason why they should work differently.

I'm not talking about the real world.
The IF acts and works exactly like a lot of magic we see, so its likely some kind of magic (also it doesn't act like any other mundane thing, same conclusion).
Tekne doing magic doesn't fit, so they needed something with magic to help out.
"Outside' intervention seems most likely.
IF as a concept then must have come from Outside.
Ajokli is the most likely prospect and had the most to gain from its creation and use.

But you mentioned the LHC, which is a real thing, as being the only thing which would convince you that a Tekne way of viewing the Outside as possible.  That is a reference to the real world, or am I misunderstanding?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Jabberwock03

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« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2018, 03:45:42 pm »
If the IF was magic, it wouldn't work on anarcane ground, right? So it wouldn't work on the progenitors world, and it wouldn't have made them discover the outside.